Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

I appreciate the point about encouragement rather than criticism and for my former range at least could offer practical help. Help etc. has to be wanted though and would first I think require recognition of the unlikelyhood of putting things right on ones own.  My test order is not malicious I merely intend to gauge the reaction (if any). My address, e mail and telephone are now in the Coopercraft system. If he can not fulfil my order I would hope that he would let me know and if a dialog is established I can make some suggestions.

 

I attach a photograph of some of the small moulding machines which were used for model railway items. (taken in my little factory 1986  gosh was I ever so young?) The machine with the orange bits was a stretched Gnat which made coach sides/ends the others are standard machines. These are all automatic and when set correctly just sit and drop mouldings into a box.  THe first auto I had, the machine on the left is the 1981 machine I mentioned that I still have.  My kids called it "EGGBERT"  as when they first saw it in action it seemed to cluck a bit then drop a moulding into the box like laying an egg.  The process is quite simple.  Moulds may be very complex but I describe a simple two part .  Two metal blocks which have the cavity and detail milled and engraved into them in such a way that when they are clamped together the space between them is the shape of the component we want to produce. The moulding machine is basically a powerful clamp to hold these together and a heated pump which once the plastic material is soft can force it into the cavity. The rest of the machine, the complicated bits, are just controls of timing, temperature etc. As it makes one moulding the plasticiser barrel is topped up by the same amount of raw plastic as was used. After a set period of cooling the clamp, and with it the mould  opens.  Ejector pins built into the mould pop the moulding out and once this has dropped clear the clamp  closes and the process is repeated.    When new these things were the same price as a small car, now you can get them for a few hundreds. I gave one away a couple of years ago.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited December 31, 2016 by Ian Kirk

[hayfield]

Ian

 

Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us about these machines, much appreciated. Lets hope something positive will come from your order

 

Happy new year

[chris p bacon]

Hi,

 

 

I attach a photograph of some of the small moulding machines which were used for model railway items. (taken in my little factory 1986  gosh was I ever so young?)  <snip>

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Thanks Ian.  How did you make the moulds for the coach sides etc ? I only have a limited experience of resin casting and so just make one master to cast from.

[aberdare]

Blimey Ian that photo brings back a few memories.

 

I started my career in Plastics on Austin Allens just like that as well as some old Ankerwerk 60 ton presses including No3 from the mid fifties which was supposed to have gone to the company at the end of its life as a museum piece, It's a far cry from the all electric Sumitomo machines we were using at the end of my career.

 

Of course things move on and the industry now seems to focus on on ever larger machines and multi-cavity tools - I have tested and approved 128 impression tools before now - and the smaller machines that people like Coopercraft need are not as common now so tend to be more expensive from new, from memory I think 'Boy' used to do quite a few but that is going back a few years.

 

Happy days - most of the time!

 

Jim

[billbedford]

I'd have thought, Bill, based on the comments on this thread and the SLaters topligjt thread, that a GWR toplight to the quality of your recent GNR coaches would be a good seller. As a designer and manufacturer, what sort of numbers do you need to be getting to justify the investment?

 

 

 

I don't know. The problem with the toplights is that there were a lot of different coaches, and four different underframes, each built in quite small numbers. It then become a guessing game to choose which ones will have a hope of becoming viable projects.

[billbedford]

I'd agree, but there is no way I can afford £80 a pop.  

 

The Howlden coaches look really excellent.  I'd love some.  Clearly there are enough wealthy people out there for a batch of these kits to have sold out.   Yet, there must be others like me who could not seriously contemplate such prices.

 

Coopercraft lists Slaters GW Clerestories at £44, Slaters GW Toplights at £45 and Blacksmith/Mallard GW Toplights at £50.  How much would a Mousa GW Toplight be?  £80? £90?

 

Fortunately I have enough GW 57' Toplights, and I dread to think what a 70' Toplight would cost in resin.

 

Injection moulding is a volume game, and I suspect that anyone with enough money to invest in tooling would get a better return by commissioning RTR coaches from China than trying to produce the same prototype as kits.

 

It's interesting that Slaters moved out of 4mm kits, some time ago, and licensed their tooling to Coopercraft, it suggests to me that, even then, the volumes of 4mm kits they were selling did not justify commissioning new tooling to extend their ranges.

[Miss Prism]

It's interesting that Slaters moved out of 4mm kits, some time ago, and licensed their tooling to Coopercraft, it suggests to me that, even then, the volumes of 4mm kits they were selling did not justify commissioning new tooling to extend their ranges.

 

Agreed in respect of the coaches, which need larger and more expensive bolsters to run on.  But I would think the existing CC wagons, along with the Slaters' PO wagons, would still be a viable prospect.

[billbedford]

Agreed in respect of the coaches, which need larger and more expensive bolsters to run on.  But I would think the existing CC wagons, along with the Slaters' PO wagons, would still be a viable prospect.

 

 

Perhaps, but only if the producer was willing/able to wholesale them. That's probably not something to be taken on by someone who has too many balls in the air.

[modelpara]

If three machines can be for for £500, why not build a pot of £3000 and buy several and keep the moods permanently in the machines

[Ian Kirk]

Thanks Ian.  How did you make the moulds for the coach sides etc ? I only have a limited experience of resin casting and so just make one master to cast from.

Hi,

Sounds like Jim could probably answer this better than I could but here goes.

Nowadays it is all CNC but when I did the LNER coach kits the computer that drove the machine sat on my shoulders. Still lots of co ordinates on 3 axes only instead of having a computer move the controls I did it all by hand. No CAD either so producing the plot of co ordinates from the works drawing was drawing board work.  I had a reasonable sized vertical mill which I had modified so that the cutting head could be rotated. This meant that could mill out curved surfaces tumblehome roofs etc.  The moulds were produced by milling out the cavity in  solid blocks of machining brass ( in negative ) to give the back and front of the mould. Fine detail engraved on and then the mould made up with backing plates, ejector pins etc. Nothing like producing a mould from patterns I am afraid.  I did my share of brass pattern making as well though as I did work for GEM, Nu Cast and Sutherland/Cotswold.  I showed Richard (Parkside) my methods of making moulds about 40 years ago and like the Sorcerers Apprentice he is now better at it than I am.  He is still doing his moulds this way.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Porcy Mane]

I'm waiting to see if any etches for Steam Railmotor bogies and valve gear turn up on the stand one day....

 

So they could join all of the Mk1 coach kits you have stashed.

[Edwardian]

If three machines can be for for £500, why not build a pot of £3000 and buy several and keep the moods permanently in the machines

 

I must admit that I was surprised, on reading Ian Kirk's post, at just how relatively financially accessible the machines are.

 

It is often said, though, that the cost of making the tooling Ian describes is what makes the venture so expensive, a point echoed just now by Bill Bedford.

 

Herein the conundrum - injection moulded product that many that manufacturers can't afford to tool for because the sales volumes might not allow the investment to be recouped versus a medium, say resin, that a manufacturer can afford to produce but which some of us cannot afford to buy.   

 

I don't imagine there is a particularly easy answer to this. 

 

But for me, it is a question of both affordability and overall value for money.  Rather than spend £80 on a single resin coach, I'd look to whitemetal or 3D printed bogies, buffers and roof fittings etc and invest in a Silhouette cutter for the sides.  That way I might be able to afford coaches by the rake, rather than singularly, at well-spaced intervals!

 

But, in the case of, say, the Ratio coaches, at £15 or so a pop, I'd buy a rake of kits.  At some point between £15 and, say, £50, I'd probably have a re-think about buying a kit and going for the homemade option, because assembling wheels, bogies, fittings etc still brings a homemade coach in at a reasonably substantial cost.  By £80, however, I have long since stopped considering the kit option.

[Porcy Mane]

Don't look at me, I'm broke.

 

I don't know of any Co. Durham legals that are broke.    Permanently pi$$ed yes, Skint? No.

 

P

[81C]

I don't know. The problem with the toplights is that there were a lot of different coaches, and four different underframes, each built in quite small numbers. It then become a guessing game to choose which ones will have a hope of becoming viable projects.

Would you consider looking into it just a generalisation would do, there are quiet a few forum members interested.

[Edwardian]

I don't know of any Co. Durham legals that are broke.    Permanently pi$$ed yes, Skint? No.

 

P

 

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with my earning capacity.  I have, without going into detail, significant obligations to meet.  Once I am free of these, as, sooner or later I should be, I should certainly be able to move from pleading poverty to at least a fairly average budget for this hobby! 

 

Certain things might well still strike me as too expensive, however, for which blame the 50% of my blood that comes from Yorkshire.  

[Clearwater]

Would you consider looking into it just a generalisation would do, there are quiet a few forum members interested.

  

I don't know. The problem with the toplights is that there were a lot of different coaches, and four different underframes, each built in quite small numbers. It then become a guessing game to choose which ones will have a hope of becoming viable projects.

On a thread on quint-arts, similarly bemoaning the lack of availability of Ian's old plastic kits, Bill was suggesting a timeframe to produce a CAD of around three weeks and a cost of £35/hour. Is that reasonable? I guess the issue is then translating that into a tool (more cost) and finding a machine to make it in. From google, it seems there are a number of moulders who take commissions from CADs. Question is what size batch do you make and of what specific coac. I'd be minded to pick the three most numerous of the toplight, per discussion, in their original condition and if people wanted to amend the kit from there, up to them. I'd also suggest a solebar up approach - there are plenty of bogie options available but it would make sense to design to fit either a Bachmann/Hornby spare or the comet system.

 

There is a difference between a group of people wanting to cooperate to fill a gap and make specific kits to what you need to do to be a commercial businsss and support a family. I doubt that I could sell enough to justify it as a job by I'm sure I could justify investing in CADs to produce something that I wanted to make albeit I'd want some form of payback.

 

David

[modelpara]

I don't think anyone looks on it as something that would support a family, more as a project to be self financing to produce more of the same and in time improve on the quality etc.

[Horsetan]

So they could join all of the Mk1 coach kits you have stashed.

Yes, basically....

[Neal Ball]

Very interesting to see how this thread has developed. Maybe we should start a new thread about a possible crowd funded scheme....

 

I'm also interested.

[modelpara]

Very interesting to see how this thread has developed. Maybe we should start a new thread about a possible crowd funded scheme....

I'm also interested.

Question has to be is it worth trying to resurrect existing moulds or start afresh?

[PenrithBeacon]

Perhaps it's time to let go

[Edwardian]

Perhaps it's time to let go

 

Indeed

[lofty1966]

Coming up to two years waiting for some stuff ordered from Coopercraft.

I spoke with the owner to order it not from the website.

Beyond a joke !

[brian777999]

Question has to be is it worth trying to resurrect existing moulds or start afresh?

 

First we have to know what the problem is : the moulds may be perfectly okay and the problem could lie elsewhere.  But there is no doubt that the absence of the Coopercraft and Slaters wagon kits has left a large gap in the plastic wagon kit market. I did not realise how much I depended on them for modelling the LMS and GWR.

Edited January 17, 2017 by brian777999

[Guy Rixon]

First we have to know what the problem is [...]

 

 

The situation, as reported second-hand on this site and elsewhere, is that the moulds are OK but the single moulding machine to drive them is broken. Ian Kirk's post, above, shows that moulding machines are relatively cheap in the second-hand market, so one might expect the machine to have been replaced. However, I understand that the machine is non-standard; it has been altered to work with larger, coach-size moulds (like, one of the machine in Ian's picture) and standard models are not suitable replacements.

 

Disclaimer: I don't have first-hand information about this.