Edwardian Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 The situation, as reported second-hand on this site and elsewhere, is that the moulds are OK but the single moulding machine to drive them is broken. Ian Kirk's post, above, shows that moulding machines are relatively cheap in the second-hand market, so one might expect the machine to have been replaced. However, I understand that the machine is non-standard; it has been altered to work with larger, coach-size moulds (like, one of the machine in Ian's picture) and standard models are not suitable replacements. Disclaimer: I don't have first-hand information about this. Sounds like it is not an irredeemable situation, though there is scant evidence that it is being addressed. Message to owner: If you can't, please sell to someone who can; it does the hobby a disservice to keep these products off the market. I noted Slater's humble 4mm scale MR open going for £16 on Ebay recently, and they don't crop up too often. Fortunately I was able to unearth a brace of them from my ancient stash, but quite what I'll do when I want another one .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 That is very interesting. Surely there is somebody with the necessary skills to fix this single machine ? The situation seems quite odd ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 Message to owner: If you can't, please sell to someone who can; it does the hobby a disservice to keep these products off the market. Perhaps the owner would like to sell but has had no offers that match their valuation of the tooling? Perhaps there is the intention to get new machines one day? At the end of the day the toolings are a business asset. As a commercial product company, there is no such thing as "service to the hobby", and therefore there can be no disservice. That may be a pain, and I would like to see the range return to market, but you must understand that one commercial company (as wad discussed with the DJ 0 Gauge J94) will not harm its future by disposing of assets that it either a) wishes to make use of in the future, or b) risks jeopardising its own future by selling to a competitor. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Perhaps the owner would like to sell but has had no offers that match their valuation of the tooling? Perhaps there is the intention to get new machines one day? At the end of the day the toolings are a business asset. As a commercial product company, there is no such thing as "service to the hobby", and therefore there can be no disservice. That may be a pain, and I would like to see the range return to market, but you must understand that one commercial company (as wad discussed with the DJ 0 Gauge J94) will not harm its future by disposing of assets that it either a) wishes to make use of in the future, or b) risks jeopardising its own future by selling to a competitor. Impasse, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Sounds like it is not an irredeemable situation, though there is scant evidence that it is being addressed. Message to owner: If you can't, please sell to someone who can; it does the hobby a disservice to keep these products off the market. I noted Slater's humble 4mm scale MR open going for £16 on Ebay recently, and they don't crop up too often. Fortunately I was able to unearth a brace of them from my ancient stash, but quite what I'll do when I want another one .... Its a great pity for all that some form of arrangement for a run of items to be made, which could result in the finance to produce runs of additional items etc etc which may redeem the situation for all parties I have no axe to grind as I have purchased items from the chap in the past and happy do continue to do so, but cannot if he has not got the stock !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I would normally cut a trader such as this some slack, it has to be a business for him, but we create the market. In terms of the Slaters Kits, this guy has been leading us a merry dance for three or four years; just check back on other Coopercraft threads. I have not dealt with him and, after reading other poster's experiences, would not do so in the foreseeable future. The last few years seem to be full of empty promises; I can only believe that he has no intention of making any arrangement to reume production. I am not saying that this was his intention when he purchased the range; he has probably taken on more than he can deal with. It seems he is just trying to sell off what he has, parts of kits, in order to recoup some of his investment. We are all dependant on such cottage businesses and are glad to support them. But equally when the owners of such businesses can no longer take such businesses forward, they sell them on to someone who can. It does seem that, despite advice offered on this forum and maybe others, the current owner of Coopercraft is unwilling to do so. For that we are all the losers. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I think you all need to give up on thinking that you will ever get any plastic injection moulded components from Coopercraft. The capital cost to set up a new machine or repair the existing would far outweigh the amount he would recover from making new items. Afaik, the moulds were in brass, and the last time I saw them, a few years ago now, they were far beyond use, scrap value only. Add on the cost of having new moulds made, and it becomes a pointless money wasting exercise. My suggestion is that you forget about that aspect of the business. A number of folk on here seem to live in some sort of dream world, living in hope about something that will never happen. Why don't a group of you pool resources, do the cad work, get a few moulds machined and get a couple of injection machines and start your own thing? After all, Kirk, Slaters, Dundas, and others started from nothing, and it was more difficult back then. Now, you may say that you haven't a clue how to go about that, but that is exactly the situation that the Coopercraft guy is in, he bought into a business that he had no understanding of the technicalities of production. marketing or any other aspect of said business, having come from an agricultural background. Thank goodness he didn't decide to buy into something important. Other than the brand names, there is nothing much to sell, and the names themselves now have little value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) I think you all need to give up on thinking that you will ever get any plastic injection moulded components from Coopercraft. The capital cost to set up a new machine or repair the existing would far outweigh the amount he would recover from making new items. Afaik, the moulds were in brass, and the last time I saw them, a few years ago now, they were far beyond use, scrap value only. Add on the cost of having new moulds made, and it becomes a pointless money wasting exercise. My suggestion is that you forget about that aspect of the business. A number of folk on here seem to live in some sort of dream world, living in hope about something that will never happen. Why don't a group of you pool resources, do the cad work, get a few moulds machined and get a couple of injection machines and start your own thing? After all, Kirk, Slaters, Dundas, and others started from nothing, and it was more difficult back then. Now, you may say that you haven't a clue how to go about that, but that is exactly the situation that the Coopercraft guy is in, he bought into a business that he had no understanding of the technicalities of production. marketing or any other aspect of said business, having come from an agricultural background. Thank goodness he didn't decide to buy into something important. Other than the brand names, there is nothing much to sell, and the names themselves now have little value. You make an interesting point. You may even be right. You seem to have knowledge of both the man and the moulds that other contributors lack, so, perhaps, there is a need not to be too hard on those exhibiting residual optimism. As to the alternative, you make an attractive argument. I have a house to sell before I invest in anything, but, once that obstacle is out of the way, I would be happy to be part of a consortium. The first thing I would do, however, is ask the nice gentleman who runs Cambrian Kits if I could assist with his retirement plans. Cambrian's is a superb range that must be kept going. It could also form the basis of an expansion that aimed to fill the gaps in plastic wagon kits left by Coopercraft and Slaters. We would all like to see the likes of the ubiquitous Midland D299 open and the GW O5s and O4s back again, but wouldn't it be nice to have a 'Slaters' wagon with internal planking and strapping or a 'Coopercraft' GW open with the floor in the right place?!? There is then the chance to cover what has not been covered, e.g. standard 9'6" opens for GN/GC/GE. And, of course, I happen to think that injection moulded plastic is a great medium for coach kits, especially nice old panelled ones. Midland Clayton 6-wheelers, GW clerestories and corridor Toplights would seem to be a great place to start. How about some GN or GC coaches? Or LBSC? Edited January 17, 2017 by Edwardian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 What was it they keep telling me? In order to make a small fortune, start with a large one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 How about some GN I'm looking at resin castings for the ones I want. Only low volumes though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 I am not going to profess to have any knowledge in this area, but I do have a question. Given the high resolution 3d printing now available, is there a reason why people always discuss tools and moulding machines. Is 3d printing no good for small wagons? Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 I am not going to profess to have any knowledge in this area, but I do have a question. Given the high resolution 3d printing now available, is there a reason why people always discuss tools and moulding machines. Is 3d printing no good for small wagons? Roy Cost is the biggest factor against 3D for mass production, designing and having printed a locomotive which is only required in small numbers suits 3D, wagons which could sell by the 100's is more suited to injection moulding as once the tooling is made the cost per wagon is pennies. The cost is the tooling and machinery to produce (this is ignoring factory overheads) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm looking at resin castings for the ones I want. Only low volumes though. Quarryscapes of this parish produces a 3D print of the GN wooden 9'6" u/fs. It would be nice to have bodies to go with them ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 Quarryscapes of this parish produces a 3D print of the GN wooden 9'6" u/fs. It would be nice to have bodies to go with them ... Aaaah, I was thinking coaches, specifically the 12W stock (65'), I'm just doing a test pattern at present on a 53' and started moulds last night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I think you all need to give up on thinking that you will ever get any plastic injection moulded components from Coopercraft. The capital cost to set up a new machine or repair the existing would far outweigh the amount he would recover from making new items. Afaik, the moulds were in brass, and the last time I saw them, a few years ago now, they were far beyond use, scrap value only. Add on the cost of having new moulds made, and it becomes a pointless money wasting exercise. My suggestion is that you forget about that aspect of the business. A number of folk on here seem to live in some sort of dream world, living in hope about something that will never happen. Why don't a group of you pool resources, do the cad work, get a few moulds machined and get a couple of injection machines and start your own thing? After all, Kirk, Slaters, Dundas, and others started from nothing, and it was more difficult back then. Now, you may say that you haven't a clue how to go about that, but that is exactly the situation that the Coopercraft guy is in, he bought into a business that he had no understanding of the technicalities of production. marketing or any other aspect of said business, having come from an agricultural background. Thank goodness he didn't decide to buy into something important. Other than the brand names, there is nothing much to sell, and the names themselves now have little value. Is that true or just speculation that all the tooling is past use? I'm asking because POW Sides are getting very good quality Slaters PO wagon kits from somewhere. If the tooling was all shot then surely they would be in the same boat? And I doubt that tooling from different eras and different manufacturers would all be affected. Some Slaters kits are from the 1970s and others are relatively new and probably hardly used. When did the Toplights come out? Late 1990s ISTR. The Coopercraft Mark Ones are of a similar age. A few years ago you saw the moulds and they were far beyond use. When exactly? As a few years ago some of them would have been brand new. I'm thinking there is more to it than tooling or machine problems. I won't say my personal view on what I believe. And I doubt that Slaters Plasticard and Ian Kirk would appreciate the idea that their good names are of "little value". They are both going concerns. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 Quite a few of the POWsides kits now have the better quality Parkside Dundas sides and ends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I said from a few years ago, that was before the Slaters transfer, it is not speculation, and I've mentioned it many times before. fwiw, I've helped one or two recover their payments, since I am living in the same county as Coopercraft, and made a few visits.. There was, to say the least, a bit of a hiccup 'twixt Slaters and Coopercraft in the 'swap' of 7mm Coopercraft and 4mm Slaters. I don't know how or if that was resolved, maybe not all was transferred, I've no idea, but there was mention of lawyers, etc. on this forum by the Coopercraft guy. I would guess that Ian Kirk, is not happy with what the current Coopercraft have done with his good name, for example, but that is always a problem if you have a personal business trading name. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2017 This might be a silly question, but how would mounds become life expired? Over use? Hardly seems to the the case at the moment. I think the only solution is to move on, we are not going to see these models again. It's a shame I only bought the one GWR full brake from Ian Kirk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Lots of reasons why moulds become 'life expired'. Sharp edges get worn away, plastics being abrasive. Miss-use/general wear and tear causes them not to seal, ejector pins worn/bent etc. Surface corrosion due to incorrect storage conditions. Customer expectations wrt more detail required to match current model standards. Design of machinery needing entirely different mould design. Inadequate backing plates/clamping pressure causing moulds to permanently distort under injection pressure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Hi All, A lot more on this thread since I read it last. I was coming on here tonight any way to report that 1. there has been no response to the order I placed on the 30th Dec. 2. My bank statement indicates payment as having gone through. In order to place the order you have to register on Coopercraft website and tonight I used this to forward a message to them. I asked for my payment to be refunded, suggested that it might be time to remove unavailable stuff from the website. I also said that if plastic moulding was still causing problems it might be time to ask for help and as the creator of the moulds with 40+ years of plastic moulding experience I could be the one to ask. I added that as the kits still bore my name dissatisfied customers tarnished my reputation too so sorting out problems was in my interests as well. If he has attempted to alter the moulds without having the relevant skills they may indeed be beyond redemption but stored even in poor conditions should not be too bad. brass does not rust or break up and tarnish is recoverable. I have revived a mould that spent 20 years as a door stop. It is amazing what polishing up will do. In any case if you can make it you can surely fix it. In answer to what has been said about machines. If I recall correctly the Slaters 4mm stuff was produced on standard 250PRTs as in my photograph. I still have one in working order and another dismantled for spares. Parkside have several including one I gave them for nothing. Colin Ashby had a garage full at one time. He still has the special and if now fully retired may be prepared to part with it. If not converting a standard machine would not be expensive. It is only heavy metal work. Lots of small workshops could do it. I can not remember what type of machine Tony had at Coopercraft so I don't know about the coopercraft wagons. Anyhow, so far as predicted. I will report back any progress if it happens. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonseasider Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Purely for information, the Coopercraft stand was noticeable by its absence from the Weston-super-Mare show last Sunday. Over the last few years that show has been the only place I can recall having seen the stand. To not attend was obviously an early decision as the name doesn't appear in the "traders" section of the show guide so it can't be that he had to pull out at short notice due to illness or whatever. As to why he wasn't there, I have no idea & it didn't cross my mind to ask the organiser. I'll try to remember to do that when I next see Keith, but that could be some time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2017 I see Coopercraft are not listed for the Southampton show this year, having attended for the last few. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Ditto Railex where they were last year David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 He wasn't at Southampton in 2016 either, the first time he'd been missing from the newish venue. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 With no evidence of fresh production and no shows at Shows, suggesting Coopercraft's box of old etchings is now empty, it seems that it is truly RIP Slaters, Coopercraft, Blacksmith/ Mallard, Mailcoach and Kirk. I suggest anyone owed money, or just fed-up with the misleading website, calls in Trading Standards to administer the overdue coup de grace and put this evidently failed venture (and hopeless optimists, such as myself), out of its misery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts