Horsetan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 ...I have a house to sell before I invest in anything, but, once that obstacle is out of the way, I would be happy to be part of a consortium. ... OT, but if you do fancy making a small fortune (from a larger one), see if you can resurrect Sharman Wheels..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 FWIW, Coopercraft was at Railwells in August 2016. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 FWIW, Coopercraft was at Railwells in August 2016. Any advance on that, or was this the last siting of the Dodo prior to extinction? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 It is time for project ''LAZARUS''. We need those wagons ! I wonder if Bachmann or Hornby have at any time considered the production of wagon kits ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I've heard enough. Cooper-Craft now deleted from supplier.text 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 It is time for project ''LAZARUS''. We need those wagons ! I wonder if Bachmann or Hornby have at any time considered the production of wagon kits ? But which? Mainly these are pre-Grouping era prototypes, albeit many long-lived beyond then, and I am encouraged that people are missing such wagons. Suppose you wanted to kick start production of new plastic wagon kits, where would you start? Between them the Slaters and Coopercraft ranges were fairly extensive (yep, into past tense now) and to reproduce all of that would be a major task, let alone produce standard types for railways not represented. In summary: - Coopercraft GW wagons (including all the various wooden mink heights and ends options) = 16 - Slaters MR & NER company wagons = 10 - Slaters POs (excluding decorated options for the opens) = 12 That's a corpus of around 38 wagon kits that we have lost. Cambrian Kits, by contrast, produce nearly 70 pre-Grouping, Grouping and PO designs. What are we doing about his retirement? Hopefully there is a buyer lined up. And not of the Muppet variety. I am not privy, of course, to such information, so, I simply ask 'do we want to risk losing these kits too?' There is also much more that could be done. Ratio had a 'thing' for LNWR, Slaters for Midland and Coopercraft for GW. Cambrian Kits give some coverage for POs, the Big Four, Southern constituents, and Cambrian Railways, but if I were starting a new range, I'd think to myself that the NER was ever underrepresented and that there should be standard types for the likes of GC. GN, GE. And what about the Scottish companies? Staying for a moment with what we have lost, what would you most want back? A, very, short list might be something like this: Midland Railway D299 5-Plank Open (Slaters) GWR Un-diagrammed & O5 4-Plank Open (Coopercraft) GWR O4 5-Plank Open A (sheet rail and non-sheet rail versions) (Coopercraft) NER 20-Ton Hopper (Slaters) PO opens / RCH 1907 – varieties? But what do most people want the most of? Next question, assuming there is an agreement of which wagons, are you going to help fund their production? If anyone has any serious interest in taking on/starting injection moulded kits, the time to be shy is over. I am happy to hear from anyone prepared to get involved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 The Coopercraft is dead, long live the ABS!... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) Do we really need more kits of PO wagons? Parkside and Cambrian already do an assortment and it seems all the RTR guys are throwing theirs in the pot as well. While I dont ignore the significant PO library, I feel if someone were to recreate the top picks of the Slaters and Coopercraft range, go for kits which arent made by anyone, such as early GWR, Midland , NER, and go further with GCR, GNR and so on. Just make sure its not already covered by the likes of David Geen, Mousa, 51L, etc. That way, theres no competition and youre strengthening the hobby. Edited January 18, 2017 by Spitfire2865 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 The Coopercraft is dead, long live the ABS!... There's another bottomless pit of lost stuff :-( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Do we really need more kits of PO wagons? Parkside and Cambrian already do an assortment and it seems all the RTR guys are throwing theirs in the pot as well. While I dont ignore the significant PO library, I feel if someone were to recreate the top picks of the Slaters and Coopercraft range, go for kits which arent made by anyone, such as early GWR, Midland , NER, and go further with GCR, GNR and so on. Just make sure its not already covered by the likes of David Geen, Mousa, 51L, etc. That way, theres no competition and youre strengthening the hobby. Personally, I'm with you in wanting to see "early GWR, Midland , NER, and go further with GCR, GNR". I'd add GER. There were various types of NER hopper, including the one Slaters made, and I don't think anyone does the standard 9'6" w/b opens employed by the likes of GN, GE and GC, so there is plenty to do without reproducing what other kit manufacturers are currently offering. Given the mind-blowingly vast quantities of the prototype MR opens that Slaters produced, that loss, alone, is a significant one. With POs it's not so much a case of more POs, but hanging onto or replacing what we had in the Slaters range. The Cambrian and Slaters ranges offered different coverage and, aside from a Scottish grain wagon of very limited application outside its home turf, Parkside's POs are all RCH 1923. RTR POs also tend to be, at least ostensibly, RCH 1923. There are exceptions. Hornby have done some decent older wooden u/f types - the dropside springs to mind - but with crude and odd underframe mouldings. The PO liveries applied to Oxford's NBR 4-plank appear to inaccurate for the wagon concerned; a common fault with RTR POs generally. To have both Gloucester and Charles Roberts designs with the basic door variations, side only and side and end, would be useful, and that is what the Slaters range offered, plus a rather nice rectangular tank and a salt wagon. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I would not be surprised to see some of the models back in production, in particular the Slaters ones. Assuming the moulds still exist, I know there were other people wanting to use them. For garden railway modellers it would be a shame to see the SM32 ones lost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I've no idea how to do it, but often wondered if there is a way of creating an "Old Range Preservation Society". A current manufacturer is coming up to retirement, and he wants to put up his business for sale, but there are no takers. Here the Pres Soc takes over, buys the range, and makes it available for other like manufacturers to use on commission to defray costs. Perhaps crowdfundin to start it off? I forsee problems, like we have summized with Coopercraft (but don't actually know) where he wants to sell at a too high price, but maybe negotiation, and perhaps a form of hire by the PS to give him some income. Important bit though, is that the range is kept for posterity (or at least until something better replaces it). I'll throw this open for discussion, maybe we could come up with something. Stewart 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) To have both Gloucester and Charles Roberts designs with the basic door variations, side only and side and end, would be useful, and that is what the Slaters range offered, plus a rather nice rectangular tank and a salt wagon. Rectangular wagons yes....but please, no more salt wagons ! I think the RTR guys have produced more than enough salt wagons over the years. Surely they were not that common ? I think we could use Hydras, Serpents and Loriots (and similar for other railway companies). I think I read somewhere that this type of wagon was once as common as the 5 plank open wagons but they are not seen as much in the modelling world. RTR seemed to have ignored them which is surprising given that there is enormous scope there for producing the various loads these wagons carried. I also agree about sticking with pre grouping era wagons as these hung around for a long time. Edited January 18, 2017 by brian777999 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I think we could use Hydras, Serpents and Loriots (and similar for other railway companies). I think I read somewhere that this type of wagon was once as common as the 5 plank open wagons No. Opens dominated those types by several orders of magnitude. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 ....I foresee problems, like we have summized with Coopercraft (but don't actually know) where he wants to sell at a too high price, but maybe negotiation, and perhaps a form of hire by the PS to give him some income. Important bit though, is that the range is kept for posterity (or at least until something better replaces it).... Yes, I think you might have an unfortunate precedent there, involving the SRG's takeover of the BSL/Phoenix coach kit range. Basically it's still held by the SRG, but nothing seems available now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Yes, I think you might have an unfortunate precedent there, involving the SRG's takeover of the BSL/Phoenix coach kit range. Basically it's still held by the SRG, but nothing seems available now. They do not even have the courtesy to respond to emails. A dead loss and another lost range. Plenty of GW stuff that was never covered by Comet, for instance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) They do not even have the courtesy to respond to emails. A dead loss and another lost range. Plenty of GW stuff that was never covered by Comet, for instance. There seem to be plenty of companies, both big and small, who suffer from an inability to reply to enquiries. I have three queries outstanding to small suppliers requesting more info regarding adverts in the model railway press - adverts which I assume they paid a not insignificant amount for. More annoying is a lack of response from one of the big boys querying when a replacement item will be sent which I purchased at Warley and did not work. They agreed to replace it happily enough, but several weeks later nothing has been received despite them having received the faulty item. Two emails since Christmas and no reply. If companies are to survive in the long term they need to keep customers on side. Roy Edited January 18, 2017 by Roy Langridge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 They do not even have the courtesy to respond to emails. A dead loss and another lost range.... Well, there you go. I think it's quite funny how a few of the ranges to have become piles of ashes so far have borne the name "Phoenix". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I would not be surprised to see some of the models back in production, in particular the Slaters ones. Assuming the moulds still exist, I know there were other people wanting to use them. For garden railway modellers it would be a shame to see the SM32 ones lost. I believe the SM32 and O Gauge stuff is safely at Slaters Plastikard. https://slatersplastikard.com/wagons/16NGWagons.php Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Does anybody know what is involved in producing a new mould? How do you go about getting moulds made? What are the sort of costs and time scales involved? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 It is often not who holds the moulds , but it's is the machines, space, staff, and money to get a range going that stops things. Smaller makers start small, low cost, high input from the founder and it slowly grows, maybe for a while returning a bit of cash flow, but rarely profit. Retirement etc brings the company to a halt. and the next owner is faced not with a cheap start up but a full range to cope with, and it just proves too expensive to do anything about it. The moulds are pretty worthless in cash terms by that time and the lot gets disposed of by executors etc. It is to early yet to say, but 3D printing should take over this market as soon as costs come down,and quality rises. The current models may have definition, but lack speed for production. Materials have still to settle down, and the stability of some 3D stuff is questionable. Also people tend to over use the ability of the 3D process to do fine detail in complex multi surfaced ways, when what is needed are kits of more conventional design made in the process. One piece bodies are all very well, but made in separate pieces are easier to design, but the speed of the process is still against mass production. The old moulds will not deteriorate in careful storage, but we are not seeing that at times, it is the slow breakdown of a larger company into an unsaleable mess that is the problem. The only answer is to buy the lot and restart, but at what cost and where does the money come from? Not from the stuff you have just bought, that's for certain. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Rectangular wagons yes....but please, no more salt wagons ! I think the RTR guys have produced more than enough salt wagons over the years. Surely they were not that common ? Not if you want authentic wagons. Most of the RTR salt wagons produced have been made on whatever generic chassis is available at the time, often with the same problems of stretched or shrunken bodies. Mostly on modern steel chassis whereas most salt wagons would have been built on wooden underframes. Like most other RTR PO wagons most manufactures treat them as a cash cow and produce them in fake and garish liveries. Yes they were pretty common depending on where you were. Around Cheshire there would be hundreds of them in use. Probably about as common as milk tankers, horse boxes, china clay wagons and cattle wagons were anyway, and everyone has those on their layout. They are one of those things that stand out in a photograph. Don't forget salt was heavily used in everything from table salt, food production, food preservation and in the chemical industry. The wagons got everywhere. Although not all salt was carried in the "cottage" wagons. They also used planked wagons and vans. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2017 Just a hint of realism/awareness from me, I'm talking generally not insulting anyone. The ranges which have disappeared are tending to be older pre-grouping stock, generally modelled by the older spectrum of the modelling fraternity, so anyone investing time and money into a resurrection scenario may have a diminishing clientele, and will be competing with items coming onto the market more and more from deceased estates, so need to hit the ground running to extract maximum revenue. There comes a time when a supply of kits, or indeed any other model related items, become more trouble than they are worth, and it is time to wave good bye and move on. When the advances in technology are factored in, there may well be alternative ways to achieve everyones aims. Regrettably we are where we are. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 There's another bottomless pit of lost stuff :-( Suffice to say that the health of the proprietor is not unassociated with the availability of these products. We're all getting old - deal with it !! Where are all the young Ian Kirks, Colin Ashbys, Adrian Swains, etc., etc., nowadays ?? Most younger 'modellers', (with some notable exceptions), don't now seem to have any initiative. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Suffice to say that the health of the proprietor is not unassociated with the availability of these products. We're all getting old - deal with it !! Where are all the young Ian Kirks, Colin Ashbys, Adrian Swains, etc., etc., nowadays ?? Most younger 'modellers', (with some notable exceptions), don't now seem to have any initiative. Regards, John Isherwood. Initiative is not the problem, disposable income to carry it out is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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