Help with 00 layout for a small board

[MrsMallard]

Hello 

 

My boy has always been train obsessed since he could toddle and for his 8th birthday in a few weeks we want to set him up with his own Hornby set. He definitely wants OO gauge rather that N gauge as he already has some engine and coaches that he was given.

 

The trouble is that the only place to have it set up is on a board that will roll away under his bed, we've measured the space and with a few cm either side for manoeuvring the size of base board we're looking at is 180 cm x 97 cm (5.9 x 3.1 feet). We could maybe go a bit more than the 3.1 feet width.

 

Will this work? He wants to have an outer loop and an inner loop plus some buildings.

 

Thanks

MrsM

Edited June 11, 2016 by MrsMallard

[Nearholmer]

Hello

 

You should be able to fit something into that space.

 

The smallest standard radius (Radius 1) of curves is 371mm, and the next (Radius 2) is 438mm, so you can fit two circuits, one inside the other, and if you google "Peco Setrack" you will find suppliers of all that you need. Peco make track that is entirely suitable for Hornby, but they make a much wider range, and it has a very good reputation - most "serious" railway modellers use their more advanced track.

 

Diagrams below show the basic geometry of Peco Setrack and Hornby track.

 

Watch where this ends up though; c50 years ago, I was the same age as your son, and my father created a model railway board for me, which hinged down onto the bed, rather than slid under it, but the size was pretty much what you mention ........ And, I'm still "playing trains"!

 

Kevin

 

PS: this is a very good starter track-pack, and might actually give him more entertainment that two circuits http://www.ehattons.com/13178/Peco_Products_ST_100_Setrack_Starter_Track_Set_Second_Radius/StockDetail.aspx

Edited June 11, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

Second radius is the minimum that a lot of modern stock can handle (as the manufacturers say), so be aware that a lot of the trains he may get won't be certain to go round the inner circuit. With the space available though you've no way to avoid 1st radius.

[RJS1977]

I was just thinking the same thing, but on the other hand most modern locos/rolling stock aren't really suitable for younger modellers (both in terms of cost and risk of accidental damage) anyway.

[Ray H]

What is the limit of the height under the bed? Is there space for a fold over board? You could then go for a wider area and use larger radius curves.

[TonyMay]

I think an R1 loop would be ideal at this stage.  Try avoiding bogie coaches stock and big locos.  0-4-0T and small wheelbase 0-6-0T should be fine.  4 wheel wagons and maybe 4 wheel coaches.  Hornby Smokey Joe pugs (and others built on the same chassis) go like rockets and are quite enough fun for youngsters.  They're what would typically be found on a small industrial railway.  

[Zomboid]

I can only speak for myself, but when I was that age it was all about big engines for me. I thought nothing of having my class 91/ 225 set running one circuit whilst my Battle of Britain in SR colours with Golden Arrow regalia ran the other.

I wouldn't have been satisfied with just 0-4-0s and 0-6-0s on 4 wheeled wagons, though I did have a few of both...

[traction]

I've started this layout which is only 4ftx3ft.

The new Flying Scotsman actually goes round it, even though it's first radius curves!!!

The Bachmann Deltic doesn't, although some of the older Hornby/Lima type Diesels will go round.

 

 

So the basic track plan, to make it easier and quicker I have used the Peco foam ballast, it doesn't last for ever, but kept out of direct sun light I should get 10years out of it.

It makes it very easy to replace the track and re-use it if you want to change the layout about. It also helps to take out the unevenness of the baseboard and makes running smooth and very quiet.

 

 

A simple single Oval, with a couple of sidings.

Once its had scenic treatment it changes the whole thing.

Might be worth going for something simple first and just have fun running trains, not having the track glued down will allow it to be taken apart and the layout changed as and when you feel like it.

having something small and easy gives endless scope for practising different scenic treatments ready for when the big full room layout comes along.........it will happen!

 

It wouldn't need to go much bigger to put a 2nd radius oval around that first and should still fit with in your size limits.

If you buy a Hornby train set it will come with 3rd radius curves, which might take you over your size limits.

Bachmann do some nice train sets and they come with 2nd radius curves, just to make you aware.

 

Above all have fun!!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

EDIT:- Yep put the wrong size down, I was actually working on one of my N-gauge layouts!!!!!! now corrected.

Edited June 14, 2016 by traction

[RJS1977]

Are you sure that's 3x2? 1st Radius track is 14 1/2" radius, so the oval must be 29" wide, plus the width of the station platform.

 

What radius curves come ina train set probably depends on the type of set - I'm pretty sure the Caley Pug type sets still come with 1st Radius.

[RJS1977]

I can only speak for myself, but when I was that age it was all about big engines for me. I thought nothing of having my class 91/ 225 set running one circuit whilst my Battle of Britain in SR colours with Golden Arrow regalia ran the other.

I wouldn't have been satisfied with just 0-4-0s and 0-6-0s on 4 wheeled wagons, though I did have a few of both...

 

My first 'layout' was populated by a Hornby Holden tank, Lima 94XX, Lima Class 33 and Hornby 08 so no really big, fast engines there. I did start saving up for a King at one point, but never got there* (what chance have today's youngsters of saving up for a big loco with today's short production runs?). The layout itself wasn't particularly successful though as all the sidings faced the same way onto the continuous run. Would have been OK for a pick-up-goods layout, but for passenger working it was hopeless!

 

That said, I did have the opportunity to operate my father's Triang Princess and Lima Western on his loft layout so maybe I got my 'big engine' fix that way.

 

*Though ironically I did 'inherit' a Lima King a few years ago when we were clearing the BB cupboard out at church.

[traction]

Are you sure that's 3x2? 1st Radius track is 14 1/2" radius, so the oval must be 29" wide, plus the width of the station platform.

 

What radius curves come ina train set probably depends on the type of set - I'm pretty sure the Caley Pug type sets still come with 1st Radius.

 

Your are correct, I had put the size down from my N-gauge layout!

You also threw me by putting everything down in imperial!

 

All of the Hornby train sets come with 3rd radius curves.

All of the Bachmann sets have 2nd radius curves.

I looked in to this when I did my thread "So you're going to buy a train-set." link below:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98047-so-youre-going-to-buy-a-train-set-update-18072015/

 

 

This is using 1st and 2nd radius curves on the 180cm x 97cm baseboard size:-

 

 

 

It's really just to give an idea of what you can get on that size board.

The inner sidings can be made up to create a shunting puzzle, possibly a 5, 3, 3 with enough room on the head shunt for a SMALL loco and 3 wagons.

This could be taken down to a 3,2,2 with enough room in the head shunt for a Small loco and 2 wagons.

 

That would keep you entertained for ages moving them about, while still have locos running round the loops!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited June 14, 2016 by traction

[TonyMay]

I've started this layout which is only 4ftx3ft.

The new Flying Scotsman actually goes round it, even though it's first radius curves!!!

The Bachmann Deltic doesn't, although some of the older Hornby/Lima type Diesels will go round.

 

Basic layout with back scene.JPG

 

So the basic track plan, to make it easier and quicker I have used the Peco foam ballast, it doesn't last for ever, but kept out of direct sun light I should get 10years out of it.

It makes it very easy to replace the track and re-use it if you want to change the layout about. It also helps to take out the unevenness of the baseboard and makes running smooth and very quiet.

 

Overview with coal staithes small station.JPG

 

A simple single Oval, with a couple of sidings.

Once its had scenic treatment it changes the whole thing.

Might be worth going for something simple first and just have fun running trains, not having the track glued down will allow it to be taken apart and the layout changed as and when you feel like it.

having something small and easy gives endless scope for practising different scenic treatments ready for when the big full room layout comes along.........it will happen!

 

It wouldn't need to go much bigger to put a 2nd radius oval around that first and should still fit with in your size limits.

If you buy a Hornby train set it will come with 3rd radius curves, which might take you over your size limits.

Bachmann do some nice train sets and they come with 2nd radius curves, just to make you aware.

 

Above all have fun!!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

EDIT:- Yep put the wrong size down, I was actually working on one of my N-gauge layouts!!!!!! now corrected.

 

Well as far as track planning goes, does look rather small to shunt the sidings.  Remember you can shave off the ends of points, including set-track points to get them to fit them into smaller spaces.  Compare the following:

 

[Zomboid]

Your are correct, I had put the size down from my N-gauge layout!

You also threw me by putting everything down in imperial!

 

All of the Hornby train sets come with 3rd radius curves.

All of the Bachmann sets have 2nd radius curves.

I looked in to this when I did my thread "So you're going to buy a train-set." link below:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98047-so-youre-going-to-buy-a-train-set-update-18072015/

 

 

This is using 1st and 2nd radius curves on the 180cm x 97cm baseboard size:-

 

OO 180x97 size plan.jpg

 

 

It's really just to give an idea of what you can get on that size board.

The inner sidings can be made up to create a shunting puzzle, possibly a 5, 3, 3 with enough room on the head shunt for a SMALL loco and 3 wagons.

This could be taken down to a 3,2,2 with enough room in the head shunt for a Small loco and 2 wagons.

 

That would keep you entertained for ages moving them about, while still have locos running round the loops!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

The 8 year old me would have been delighted with that. The only thing is its not obvious where a platform on the outer track would go. Could it be shuffled over a little so that you could fit one of those really short straights in the outer circuit arcs? I happen to know from experience that that creates a big enough gap to get a Hornby platform between the tracks. Crossovers would all have to be on the other side though.

[Nearholmer]

"Shaving points" probably isn't really an entry-level activity for parents who aren't already into model railways, but if you take Traction's plan in Post 11, and simply swap the LH point at the entry to the head-shunt for a RH point, the head-shunt can be made significantly longer, especially if it is curved.

 

Anyone remember a very good GWR layout that was almost exactly like this, in RM c20 years ago? It was purpose-designed as a set-track starter, but very well scenified, and looked very good indeed.

 

K

[traction]

Hi,

 

Made the changes as described, which gives a nice long platform on the one side.

It does mean the track runs very close to the edge though, you could leave it without the small track in the Oval and have a platform on the outside edge serving just the outside oval.

You might be able to reduce the length of the whole layout and have a curved platform around one end, to give you the cross overs both sides.

 

Lots of choices to be honest.

 

 

If you put on a back scene and maybe hide the cross overs the trains would disappear then come back again through tunnel mouths.

With full scenery it would transform what at first looks like a very simple basic ovals with sidings.

 

To be honest for a first layout for a young child I don't really think any of it matters, they will just enjoy playing trains, which funnily enough thats what we all do, regardless of age!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited June 14, 2016 by traction

[Nearholmer]

Traction

 

One advantage of the earlier version, with the crossovers either side of the layout, was that it allowed the right hand end of the outer circuit to be used as a storage loop.

 

With that in mind, platforms outside the track, even if the gaps have to be huge, might be better.

 

K

[JohnR]

"Shaving points" probably isn't really an entry-level activity for parents who aren't already into model railways, but if you take Traction's plan in Post 11, and simply swap the LH point at the entry to the head-shunt for a RH point, the head-shunt can be made significantly longer, especially if it is curved.

 

Anyone remember a very good GWR layout that was almost exactly like this, in RM c20 years ago? It was purpose-designed as a set-track starter, but very well scenified, and looked very good indeed.

 

K

 

Are you thinking of Bredon? It was exhibited at Pecroama for a number of years.

[Nearholmer]

That's the one!

 

Thank you.

 

Jolly blooming scary how time goes - look at the date on that RM.

 

K

Edited June 14, 2016 by Nearholmer

[JohnR]

Worse than that! It originally appeared in the September 1981 issue!

[Nearholmer]

OMG ...... It feels like it was yesterday!

 

I must, now, be officially becoming Not Young Anymore.

 

K

[ejstubbs]

That's the one!

 

That plan from the Peco Track Plans book differs from the real Bredon in a number of ways.  The worst of which IMO is that the arrangement at the station throat at the right hand side doesn't flow anything like as well as the original.  The treatment at the left hand end is much more awkward than the original as well.

 

In the September 1981 article Mr Wood states that Setrack was used for the whole layout, although some straights were cut down to fit, and the reverse curve leading to the bay (which is also not properly represented in the Track Plans book version) was made by "flexing" a Setrack straight after cutting the webbing between sleepers at strategic points.

 

The layout was 6'6" x 3'10" and used second and first radius curves.  It also had a three-track traverser fiddle yard accessed off the outer track at the top right, under the hillside.

 

Below is a quick shot at what I think Bredon should look like in Setrack, including the 'tweaks' admitted to in the article:

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by ejstubbs

[Nearholmer]

Now it makes more sense!

 

I spotted that the photo and the Setrack plan didn't match.

 

I also went and looked at more photos of the layout, and reminded myself how very, very good it was. As a nation of modellers obsessed by the last tenth of a millimetre on track gauge, we could probably do with seeing more of this sort of thing, which makes the point that model railways are about a lot more than that.

 

K

[imt]

That plan from the Peco Track Plans book differs from the real Bredon in a number of ways.  The worst of which IMO is that the arrangement at the station throat at the right hand side doesn't flow anything like as well as the original.  The treatment at the left hand end is much more awkward than the original as well.

 

............

 

Thanks for posting that detail.  I add below one of my Dad's and my layouts - not because its good (though we had great fun with it) but as another thought for Mrs Mallard to look at (if she hasn't gone away by now!). I have tried to put the old tatty paper sketch into a readable form.  It was 6'6" by 3'9" and lived under a small double bed.

 

I would reinforce the point ejstubbs makes.  If you do something like this you need to hacksaw some bits of rail.  Both our diagrams use AnyRail and the gaps are obvious.  Rail cutting is not difficult, but as for me 65 years ago, it's something for an adult to do not for a child.

 

The idea of the run round area is so a train order can be reversed to go back to the station, the engine running round the carriages.  There was a bit of handling involved as the loco and tender had to be picked up to turn round.  These days you can use a Peco LocoLift. As I remember it, it was a maximum of 2 coaches plus loco and another train could pass a passenger train in the station using the loop.  We had a couple of "industries" to add interest (and a reason for some different wagons). With my lovely "Duchess" for expresses and a couple of tank engines it was hours of fun.

 

The "backscene" was cardboard with two joins so it could lay flat but would stand up in use.  Crude but effective.  Apart from the buildings there was no hard scenery - but we enjoyed it just the same.  These days I would have tried for a head shunt for the goods yard - but I didn't miss it then.

 

The "fiddle area" was extended out by a foot or so on books when in use (on the floor of course!) so a train could be made up ready for running. As ejstubbs says - a larger fiddle yard would add to the utility.

 

For more ideas get hold of the Peco Setrack Planbook - my third edition includes the Bredon plan.

Edited June 15, 2016 by imt

[TonyMay]

I think a big issue here for roundy-roundies is exactly how much of it needs to be absolutely compressed?  "Small things" like going from 1st to 2nd radius curves, adding a loop/siding on the outside of the circle, adding a little extra length to the long side of the straight, make a big difference when you don't have much space at all.  If you can do those things though, that's great.

 

The measurement given is 3.1 feet - I'll take this as being 3'1" or 37 inches rather than 3 & 1/10s of a  foot.

 

In the below then the top half is a R1 half-circle, the bottom one is an R2 half-circle, showing that an R2 curve will fit, but only just and only as long as there is nothing outside the circle.

 

[Nearholmer]

I wonder if Mrs Mallard has read any of our musings?

 

What does she think?

 

Does she actually exist, or is she an invention of the moderators, here only to spark a conversation?

 

Will Young Master Mallard get the layout of his dreams?

 

I think we should be told.

 

K