Scotrail HSTs - what formation?

[nightstar.train]

I was wondering if anyone on here was "in the know" as to how the HSTs that are being cascaded up to Scotland will be formed. Will they have a full buffet car or just a trolley area (I hope the former). And how much first class. Compared to the current 170s I couldn't see them needing more than half a coaches worth, so might a composite coach be reintroduced? Or would they maybe run with one of the four window type buffet cars, with the seats all first class (TRUF?).

 

Can't wait for them to arrive, will be a lovely way to travel up north from Glasgow.

[Guest eddie reffin]

I was wondering if anyone on here was "in the know" as to how the HSTs that are being cascaded up to Scotland will be formed. Will they have a full buffet car or just a trolley area (I hope the former). And how much first class. Compared to the current 170s I couldn't see them needing more than half a coaches worth, so might a composite coach be reintroduced? Or would they maybe run with one of the four window type buffet cars, with the seats all first class (TRUF?).

Can't wait for them to arrive, will be a lovely way to travel up north from Glasgow.

Don't hold your breath! We were supposed to have had a power car and a coach up for training purposes but so far that's not happened. Word is that when they eventually arrive we will have a limited number of diagrams and a limited number of crews trained on them. Have also heard that they may even still have normal doors on the coaches. Not really looking forward to them tbh. Quite happy driving units and not having to learn something new! As for formations, nothing concrete except the 2+4 and 2+5 formations that were originally announced. If I find out anything more I'll post up here provided it's not embargoed.

[nightstar.train]

Yeah, I guess with the *ahem* difficulties they're having in getting the knitting up over the GWML the whole timetable for the HSTs move north is slipping. Maybe they've decided to enter a few in service with slam doors whilst a few are kept back to be modified with power doors, then rotate them as the power door sets are released. 1st Jan 2020 is a hard date and the HSTs must have power doors by then. Unless of course the whole thing is abandoned and Scotrail buy some nice new coaches from CAF, with a few more 68s to push pull them. They could even paint them grey with a blue and white stripe ;-).

[Glorious NSE]

 1st Jan 2020 is a hard date and the HSTs must have power doors by then.

Might seem a silly question - but would **all** doors have to be powered - my reading is it needs to be accessible, so one accessible door in the train (more likely one upgraded coach) would fulfil the need for the train to be accessible.

 

Whilst the GWR wiring date has slipped, the new train build does not appear to have slipped, rather it's looking like more of the fleet will have engines fitted (at least to start with) than first thought, so it might impact the cascade less than folk think.

 

 

[nightstar.train]

Hmmm. I have no idea. What you say sounds like a perfectly valid interpretation of the law, although it may be keeping to the letter rather than the spirit. Bear in mind that power doors are not just for wheelchair users, but those who maybe aren't very strong, or are infirm, or struggling with a pushchair &c.

 

Last I'd heard was that DafT were negotiating with Hitachi to fit Diesel engines to all the GWR fleet of SETs, no doubt setting an even greater altitude record on the price of them.

 

As an aside can anyone think of a recent rolling stock cascade program that has run to the original time scale?

[Christopher125]

It's already been confirmed that the GWR 801s will now arrive as bi-modes, and those in the know seem confident that there hasn't been and won't be a delay to the HSTs being released.

[mjkerr]

As an aside 
The formations are initially 
2+4
2+5 

These rakes are then to have one (standard) coach added 
I suspect the 2+4 rakes will simply have two coaches added, and the 2+5 rakes will remain unchanged 
However, I expect the coaches to be swapped on a regular basis 

From the planned seating capacity 
I would expect a full First Class coach to remain in each set (no composite) 
It is more likely this coach may be modified with a Train Managers office and buffet bar, rather than a Standard one, as this gives greater flexibility

[Glorious NSE]

Hmmm. I have no idea. What you say sounds like a perfectly valid interpretation of the law, although it may be keeping to the letter rather than the spirit. Bear in mind that power doors are not just for wheelchair users, but those who maybe aren't very strong, or are infirm, or struggling with a pushchair &c.

For the avoidance of doubt - I completely agree they should be upgraded for all those reasons, in fact I believe that should have been done a decade ago when FGW upgraded them last (retention tank toilets too, spreading raw sewage over people really shouldn't be something we're still doing!)

 

I'm also not suggesting that only one car in the train is ever upgraded, but rather that if the timescale for getting them into traffic did end up getting tight then that may be the minimum required to make the train compliant and provide at least some benefit by more capacity - the other cars in the program could then undoubtedly catch up within a year or so giving the full benefit.

[D854_Tiger]

I would just like to say that from memory a HST + 5 is the dog's proverbials.

 

Virgin XC had a few sets so composed initially, during Operation Princess, so they could keep to the Voyager schedules.

 

Sparkling doesn't even begin to describe the performance.

[Legend]

I would just like to say that from memory a HST + 5 is the dog's proverbials.

 

Virgin XC had a few sets so composed initially, during Operation Princess, so they could keep to the Voyager schedules.

 

Sparkling doesn't even begin to describe the performance.

And critically I can squeeze 2+5 in my platforms

['CHARD]

And critically I can squeeze 2+5 in my platforms

 

Other shoes are available 

[nightstar.train]

As an aside 

The formations are initially 

2+4

2+5 

These rakes are then to have one (standard) coach added 

I suspect the 2+4 rakes will simply have two coaches added, and the 2+5 rakes will remain unchanged 

However, I expect the coaches to be swapped on a regular basis 

From the planned seating capacity 

I would expect a full First Class coach to remain in each set (no composite) 

It is more likely this coach may be modified with a Train Managers office and buffet bar, rather than a Standard one, as this gives greater flexibility

This would make sense, although I was wondering if Scotrail will get some ready made buffet coaches rather than converting. Would speed up the introduction of the new trains, although there will be no shortage of TSOs and TFOs to convert.

 

Will the eventual 2+6 sets operate to Glasgow? That'd make for some interesting platform planing at Queen St. They'll be fighting with the 8 car Edinburgh trains for the longest platforms!

[JohnR]

This would make sense, although I was wondering if Scotrail will get some ready made buffet coaches rather than converting. Would speed up the introduction of the new trains, although there will be no shortage of TSOs and TFOs to convert.

 

Will the eventual 2+6 sets operate to Glasgow? That'd make for some interesting platform planing at Queen St. They'll be fighting with the 8 car Edinburgh trains for the longest platforms!

The current blocade at Queen Street also includes work to lengthen all the platforms (bar one, I believe), so there should be no problems for either 8-car Edinburgh or 2+6 HSTs.

[phil-b259]

This would make sense, although I was wondering if Scotrail will get some ready made buffet coaches rather than converting. Would speed up the introduction of the new trains, although there will be no shortage of TSOs and TFOs to convert.

 

 

The thing is a full buffet vehicle is rather wastefull in seating terms. ScotRail will not be serving full meals so they don't need to cart a full kitchen around with them - a counter, espresso machine, a water boiler, sink and  a microwave / grill thing to to toasted sandwiches is probably all that is required - which can easily be fitted into a couple of seating bays like Cross country did with their Mk2s

[Guest eddie reffin]

Where is this 2+6 coming from please? The reason that it's max 2+5 is down to a number of factors. Platform length, timings and maintenance. The CSMD at Inverness can hold a 2+5 in the long road completely undercover. ASR have said that towards the end of the franchise there "may" be a review but it's not in the plans for the leasing requirements. By the time the franchise is up at its initial length, the HSTs will be coming up for almost 50 years old and no amount of polishing or rolling in glitter will make them and less problematic. Just look at the sleeper fiasco. Since the Mk3s stopped being maintained in IS, there has been a massive drop in reliability which has led to all sorts of short formations and cancellations. Perhaps the answer to inter city travel up here is modern bi-mode units that could (once wired in the next control period) raise the pan in Perth for south bound services.

[NickL2008]

Where is this 2+6 coming from please? The reason that it's max 2+5 is down to a number of factors. Platform length, timings and maintenance. The CSMD at Inverness can hold a 2+5 in the long road completely undercover. ASR have said that towards the end of the franchise there "may" be a review but it's not in the plans for the leasing requirements. By the time the franchise is up at its initial length, the HSTs will be coming up for almost 50 years old and no amount of polishing or rolling in glitter will make them and less problematic. Just look at the sleeper fiasco. Since the Mk3s stopped being maintained in IS, there has been a massive drop in reliability which has led to all sorts of short formations and cancellations. Perhaps the answer to inter city travel up here is modern bi-mode units that could (once wired in the next control period) raise the pan in Perth for south bound services.

Almost 50 years old? theyre 40 this year?

 

NL

[Guest eddie reffin]

Almost 50 years old? theyre 40 this year?

 

NL

It's planned to be a 10 year franchise with various break points in it.

[Glorious NSE]

The thing is a full buffet vehicle is rather wastefull in seating terms. ScotRail will not be serving full meals so they don't need to cart a full kitchen around with them - a counter, espresso machine, a water boiler, sink and  a microwave / grill thing to to toasted sandwiches is probably all that is required - which can easily be fitted into a couple of seating bays like Cross country did with their Mk2s

The TCC's in the Cross Country HST fleet are worth a look in terms of what can be done creatively with the space as well...

[nightstar.train]

The current blocade at Queen Street also includes work to lengthen all the platforms (bar one, I believe), so there should be no problems for either 8-car Edinburgh or 2+6 HSTs.

I don't have the magazine to hand, but my understanding from what I read was that, whilst all the platforms are being lengthened two will be substantially longer than the others. I don't have the plan to hand, or relevant train lengths, but it was my understanding that the 8 car Edinburgh trains would use these. If the HSTs are going to be 2+4/5 then I would guess they'll fit the other platforms fine.

[nightstar.train]

Where is this 2+6 coming from please? The reason that it's max 2+5 is down to a number of factors. Platform length, timings and maintenance. The CSMD at Inverness can hold a 2+5 in the long road completely undercover. ASR have said that towards the end of the franchise there "may" be a review but it's not in the plans for the leasing requirements. By the time the franchise is up at its initial length, the HSTs will be coming up for almost 50 years old and no amount of polishing or rolling in glitter will make them and less problematic. Just look at the sleeper fiasco. Since the Mk3s stopped being maintained in IS, there has been a massive drop in reliability which has led to all sorts of short formations and cancellations. Perhaps the answer to inter city travel up here is modern bi-mode units that could (once wired in the next control period) raise the pan in Perth for south bound services.

If it's an option being looked at long term I hope they keep some extra Mk3s stored well, otherwise it could be hard to get nearly 50 year old stock that's been sitting in a siding for years going again.

[JohnR]

Where is this 2+6 coming from please? The reason that it's max 2+5 is down to a number of factors. Platform length, timings and maintenance. The CSMD at Inverness can hold a 2+5 in the long road completely undercover. ASR have said that towards the end of the franchise there "may" be a review but it's not in the plans for the leasing requirements. By the time the franchise is up at its initial length, the HSTs will be coming up for almost 50 years old and no amount of polishing or rolling in glitter will make them and less problematic. Just look at the sleeper fiasco. Since the Mk3s stopped being maintained in IS, there has been a massive drop in reliability which has led to all sorts of short formations and cancellations. Perhaps the answer to inter city travel up here is modern bi-mode units that could (once wired in the next control period) raise the pan in Perth for south bound services.

 

It was stated at the initial announcement that it was possible that the trains would be lengthened if demand needed it, but it probably wouldnt take place straight away. The franchise is a 7+3 one, and I wouldnt be surprised if the additional coach was included as part of the extension.

[hexagon789]

I know it's a bit late and all, but if anyone is still interested in the formations for the forthcoming ScotRail fleet of HSTs then this is the best I can make out from the ScotRail Franchise agreement. From December 2018 until December 2021 there will be 14 2+4 and 13 2+5 sets. From December 2022 until December 2025 there will be 13 2+4, 12 2+5 and 2 2+6 sets which suggest that one of each of the 2+4 and 2+5 sets will be reformed. The capacities are:

2+4 - 202 Std, 232 total seats

2+5 - 276 Std, 306 total

2+6 - 350 Std, 380 total.

This suggests that each set will have one vehicle of 30 First Class seats, possibly similar to the buffet cars used by Chiltern which contain a buffet, 30 'Business Zone' seats and an accessible toilet.

From the differences between the total seating of each set it would appear that the normal standard class trailers will seat 74 passengers and the other standard class vehicle (presumably the TGS) will seat 54, as this is a reduction in the usual 65 in VTECs and GWRs TGS vehicles it seems likely that this vehicle will also contain an accessible toilet and space for wheelchairs.

The set formations would thus appear to be:

2+4 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TGS-DM

2+5 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DM

2+6 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DM

Hope this helps! ☺

[Zomboid]

I wonder how long they'll last before scotrail replaces them with 80x units. It seems to me that the longer central belt to the highlands runs would suit such trains quite well.

[Edwin_m]

That probably depends on the progress with electrification. 

 

The original idea of HSTs seems to have been a stopgap until electrification to Aberdeen and possibly Inverness allowed replacement by EMUs, with Aberdeen-Inverness probably separated out from through services and operated by DMUs.  If some, but not all, of these electrification schemes happen during the franchise then the next franchise will probably need bi-modes instead.  However with bi-modes apparently becoming commonplace (two designs now available for the UK market) it might be appropriate to buy them even if lines from the south to both Aberdeen and Inverness are electrified, so that the current through workings north of Aberdeen can continue. 

 

I suspect however that the HSTs will continue through the current franchise, simply because contracts will have been signed on them that can't easily or cheaply be backed out of. 

[woodenhead]

Will they derate the power cars at all?  They aren't going to used at 125 in Scotland and that should allow them to relax the engines a bit to improve reliability