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Advice sought re LNER conflat wagon finishing


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The other day I succumbed to a momentary temptation and bought a Parkside Dundas LNER conflat + DX open container kit which I found seriously under-priced in a local model shop.  It's probably been hanging around for years and may turn out not to go together very well, although on inspection nothing seems to be warped.  On the off chance that I manage not to make a complete dog's breakfast of assembling it, I was wondering about colours and markings.  This site says that non-fitted wagons were grey, and containers were blue.  I already have a pot of LMS freight wagon grey: how close is the LNER shade to that?  Would the open container really have been blue, and if so then what shade?

 

I'm also wondering about transfers for lettering/numbering.  The conflat obviously doesn't have a lot of "real estate": would the HMRS LNER goods vehicle insignia sheet have small enough characters for it?

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Conflat S wagons were fitted and so would be red oxide/bauxite under both LNER and BR.

 

The DX container would most likely be dark blue with white lettering under the LNER. 

 

The HMRS LNER wagon sheet does contain suitable lettering and Powsides, I believe, do suitable lettering for the container.

 

sing_cont_zps3f645907.jpg

Edited by jwealleans
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Conflat S wagons were fitted

 

Oh, that's what that big round thing underneath is for...d'oh!

 

So would LMS bauxite be a good match, or would I need to mix it up a bit?  (Or shell out for the Precision Paints pot?)

 

The DX container would most likely be dark blue with white lettering under the LNER.

 

Just generic dark blue, or is there a specific LNER colour?  (I assume garter blue is too light.)

 

Thanks for the advice on the lettering, much appreciated.  Looks like Powsides do suitable lettering for the conflat, too.

Edited by ejstubbs
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LNER Red Oxide is redder than the LMS brown.  Have a look at a Bachmann LNER van, they're about right.

 

Oxford Blue with white lettering for the container, although in the early to mid 1930s they were also red oxide with yellow lettering.

 

Parkside give you most of what you need for the brakes.  If you haven't done LNER fitted gear before, it can be a bit baffling.  This one is done with Mainly Trains brass gear, but yours should be laid out exactly like this:

 

D60_conflat__4_zpskktbhgwo.jpg

Edited by jwealleans
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I already have a pot of LMS freight wagon grey: how close is the LNER shade to that?  Would the open container really have been blue, and if so then what shade?

 

 

LNER wagon-grey is darker than LMS grey but not as dark as GWR grey. Anything between these two will look plausible. Phoenix Paints P66 is the one if you're buying, but you can probably just mix LMS grey with some black.

 

I understand the blue used on the containers was the same blue used for engineering-department stock such as cranes. Phoenix P70.

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...and remember that no two wagons in a train ended up being exactly the same colour.

 

Unlikely to end up that way on my railway, given my (in)competence with a paintbrush!

 

...and also that the container could belong to 'anyone' and be of any RCH type, this being the whole point of containers.

 

Indeed, and I am planning to get a few more containers so that I can add some variety.  Are the Peco card ones any good?  I haven't yet found any other sources (but that's probably just because I'm rubbish at searching).  I'm working on the basis that the B type or one of its variants would be the most appropriate ones to go for.

Edited by ejstubbs
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DX containers seem to have been fairly uncommon in traffic. I've only found one picture of any on a train (a Dr. Ian C Allen shot of about a dozen apparently loaded with aggregate somewhere near Norwich, hauled by an A5).

 

Parkside do the B container separately, I believe and Cambrian do an 'A' (although it's a swine to build). Bachmann do B types in a 3 pack if you don't mind repainting and also do the AF type shown in the picture I posted near the top of the thread.

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But do Peco still produce the card jobbies? I went looking when the Bachmann conflat was available in pairs wiothout containers for very little in 2001, and retailers various saith no. Likewise not to be had at Pecorama at about that time. I had found them good in the past, and they served me well on my outdoor line in the 1980s, until they spent a night out in a rain storm...

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Model Railways Direct, of all people, seem to have some of the Peco kits still in stock.  They're still listed on the Peco web site but apart from MRD no-one seems to carry them.

 

The Bachmann B type ones seem to be unavailable at the moment - their web site says Aug/Sep.  I can be patient...

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if you can find one, they did offer one in a 3 plank open, which you can always then use for something else.

 

This is the Cambrian A type, here in an LMS 1 plank. BR did eventually ban these from container use, but not for a while after 1948.

 

lmsflat_zps8d90ff23.jpg

 

Bachmann have never, to my knowledge, issued the A type as a separate item.

 

conflat_a_zpsbfc5dfef.jpg

 

On the left here is a Parkside B type, on a scratchbuilt LNER Conflat V.

 

conflats_zps5b2b3f63.jpg

Edited by jwealleans
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...Oxford Blue with white lettering for the container, although in the early to mid 1930s they were also red oxide with yellow lettering...

 I knew I had read something about LNER container paint colours, but had to wait until I was back with my Tatlow volumes.

 

This states that the generality of LNER containers were always red oxide, appropriate to their intended use on fitted conflats. It was the BK (household removal branded) containers only that went dark blue from 1935, with the stylised 'Zed' branding adopted in concert by the big 4 companies. (Other exceptions, the pressed steel containers finished in aluminium paint, and chilled/insulated types in white.)

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  • 3 years later...
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Digging up a rather old thread rather than starting a new one....

 

I've just finished a Parkside LNER conflat for use in 1947, while I have found a good photo to show the lettering I am at a loss as to what colour to paint the deck.  I dont know what container I will fit yet, so no idea how much of the deck will be visable.

 

Applogies if this is covered in instructions, they have long since been lost!

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Photographs in Tatlow 4B show the Conflat S deck to be steel clearly enough. The best is of a new wagon so there's no wear; but I would assume it is painted, as there's no evidence of rust, it's a uniform tone and I would guess at uniform with the red oxide the vestigial wagon sides would have carried. Feature I hadn't noticed previously, a formed steel plate step above each buffer. Detail to add to mine!

 

Now, related questions.

 

Does anyone know what the ratio of containers to conflats was in the BR steam period?

 

Also related question, were conflats regularly seen moved without load on long distance services? (I know they departed and returned unloaded on the pick up goods, to stations where containers were off-loaded and loaded occasionally, but would they ever be seen flying along unloaded in fully fitted long distance trains. )

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Now that's going to be a tough one to answer.  I'm not sure most photographs would tell you and if empty wagon workings is a valid analogy, weren't most at night and therefore not often recorded?

 

My gut feel would be that there were enough containers about to be able to call up what was needed from fairly close by - large regular flows would have had dedicated vehicles.

 

One oddity which may or may not be relevant - analysis of LNER container traffic before the War showed more loaded vehicles going north than south, contrary to what I believe is the usual loaded/unloaded flow.   It may be that containerised traffic had a different dynamic to wagonload.

 

 

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2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Now that's going to be a tough one to answer.  I'm not sure most photographs would tell you and if empty wagon workings is a valid analogy, weren't most at night and therefore not often recorded?...

Indeed, what is photographed on the fast fitted freights are loaded conflats. Some things are just unknowable and/or unmodelable. Along with realistic steam loco exhaust, how  much I would like a realistic wildly flogging wagon sheet that is barely attached to an open wagon in a fast freight.

 

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

...One oddity which may or may not be relevant - analysis of LNER container traffic before the War showed more loaded vehicles going north than south, contrary to what I believe is the usual loaded/unloaded flow.   It may be that containerised traffic had a different dynamic to wagonload.

Absolutely so. London and its satellites were where a large proportion of the UK's highest added value manufacturing industries were located*, generating the class of traffic which benefitted most from being sealed in a container from factory despatch to customer goods in.

 

*And still the case today, small amounts of materials** as feedstock for very expensive products.

** In the case of intellectual product that'll be Pret a Manger sandwiches and the like.

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Thanks I have painted it body colour already so with some weathering it should do the job.

 

on a related note, I’d be interested to know more about how they worked.  I am assuming that containers were not transfered between companies if to be shipped from LNER territory to GW, so the LNER flat would run to its destination then the empty wagon would be returned to the NE (or would it be held waiting for the empty container). As I assume the container also wouldn’t be common user. 
 

Ive read that the container which comes with the parkside kit wasn’t very common.  So I guess I need to source something else (given all my spare containers are great western).  

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On 01/05/2020 at 12:02, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Does anyone know what the ratio of containers to conflats was in the BR steam period?

 

Also related question, were conflats regularly seen moved without load on long distance services? (I know they departed and returned unloaded on the pick up goods, to stations where containers were off-loaded and loaded occasionally, but would they ever be seen flying along unloaded in fully fitted long distance trains. )

 

There is an article in MRJ No 43 written by Roger Marsh which carries the following detail:

 

"The average round trip for LNE containers, back loaded from the other companies, varied according to load and season: Type A - every 6.3 to 9.7 days, Type B - 5.7 to 10.7 days, and Type D - 8.5 to 22.6 days."

 

This would seem to infer that an empty conflat running on a long distance service was not the norm.

 

It also lists that in 1946 there were 9802 LMS, 5228 LNER, 2540 GWR and 1290 SR containers with numbers rising after nationalisation to over 50,000 (There is also a year by year stock record from 1949 to 1967 in Don Rowland's "British Railway Wagons - The First Half Million). Given that there were approx. 20,000 BR built Conflat A's then I'd hazard a guess that the Container: Conflat ratio would be something like 2:1.

Edited by SP Steve
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  • 6 months later...

I too am building an ex LNER Conflat S from a kit.

 

The DX container is being displaced - I understand that BR required open containers to move on Lowfits, Medfits and Highs, because they reckoned the open box structure couldn't take the stresses of the securing chains on Conflats

 

On the general questions - I've painted the deck in Humbrol gunmetal with a touch of Railmatch track dirt mixed in, and given it a wash of AK Light Rust Wash ( 'cos I've got it and not found much previous use for it) . Pleased with the result - steel deck streaked with fresh rust - the grinding effect of the load would ensure fresh rust.

 

It will get a Parkside BD container transferred from something else, because a BD is big enough not to immediately scream "problem" when you don't fit securing shackles  . Short As immediately beg the question "so what's making sure that stays put???".

 

I believe Ambis do etched shackles - I have a suspicion I may have bought a pack once but need to see if I can find it. There seems to be nothing else on their list I want, which would make mail-order expensive

 

 

On 01/05/2020 at 16:38, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Indeed, what is photographed on the fast fitted freights are loaded conflats. Some things are just unknowable and/or unmodelable. Along with realistic steam loco exhaust, how  much I would like a realistic wildly flogging wagon sheet that is barely attached to an open wagon in a fast freight.

 

 

 

I would expect a a container to be returned pronto on a conflat. With maritime containers , if you don't fill up the ship going back out with empties you very rapidly get into trouble with shortages and surpluses of boxes. So unless you are a known container demand area, you evacuate your empties PDQ to a demand area. A demand area for railway containers is by definition also a demand area for Conflats .

 

So an unloaded Conflat ought to be an exception (Ilford depot strapped to the depot shunter is the obvious example that comes to mind...) though many of those loaded Conflats may be carrying empty containers. Surplus wagons and surplus containers ought to be evacuated together, as a basic operational principle

 

For what its worth , I've heard it suggested that each deep-sea vessel needs 3x its capacity of boxes - one container on the ship and one at each end. Though that might apply to routes with shorter transits, under about 20 days

 

But - can anyone confirm what colour D /DX containers were painted by BR? 

 

I have casually started applying passenger crimson in careful thinned coats to mine. Now there seems to be a suggestion they were BR freight grey not red or bauxite.

 

Pictures are extremely difficult to find. The even smaller H open containers have just 9 pics on Paul Bartlett's site , and of those 2 appear to be grey and one bauxite...

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On 04/05/2020 at 11:49, SP Steve said:

 

There is an article in MRJ No 43 written by Roger Marsh which carries the following detail:

 

"The average round trip for LNE containers, back loaded from the other companies, varied according to load and season: Type A - every 6.3 to 9.7 days, Type B - 5.7 to 10.7 days, and Type D - 8.5 to 22.6 days."

 

 

 

 22.6 days for Type D strongly implies that someone was using them as onsite storage. 

 

Double the demurrage scale after 7 days, I think...

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Usual caveats apply but the best pictures you'll probably find are on the Quorn Wagon & Wagon site.  Go back through the news to September-ish and they've just restored two B type containers.   As far as I can see they're spot on for what 1950s containers ought to look like.

 

I have seen a picture of a train of DXs on Conflats, in one of Dr. Ian C Allen's albums, but I think it's the only one.

 

Edit - reread and you asked for the colour of DXs.   That I'm not so sure of.   Oh, and Ambis are your best bet for shackles.   The Roxey ones are a bit big and I'm not sure who else offers any.

 

 

Edited by jwealleans
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