************* Presents?

[cromptonnut]

Most people won't know, although I must admit if I saw a local show organised by XYZ club that I hadn't heard of before I would probably go along expecting there to be a club stand, and I'd enquire about what the club does, where they meet etc if I wasn't already connected to a club.

 

Maybe someone needs to go along and do just that, and report back... pity I'm working on the 3rd

[Robatron86]

One other thing I have just realised, I was not asked at any point the stock and layout value for insurance purposes. That should have made me question it.

[lapford34102]

Shows run by person(s) under the guise of a club or organization are nothing new, I can think of two that were/are long running. Whether or not there is anything underhand going on here I don't know but we are innocent until proven guilty so I'll put it down to naivete for the moment.

What is unacceptable is the apparent lack of transparency and that leaves the organizer(s) open to valid criticism which might well be unwarranted.

 

Stu

[russianlayout]

Look, anyone who knows Dekota, accepts he can be annoying, secretive, pushy, very easy to wind up for fun and a bit Heath Robinson in the way he does things.   He is also one of the most committed and hardworking people I have come across at exhibitions, and get below the surface actually a very informative bloke on model railways, and I allow him to have a trade stand at my show as he has excellent customer care and although selling secondhand, takes pride in what and how he sells, including shrink wrapping locos etc.  He also p&^sed me of last year at our New Cross show when he got free trade space as he said he will be bringing narrow gauge layout, and turned up with a baseboard with a grass hill on it! no trains, just a hill,  but at the same time, he is easy to forgive as I don't think he winds people up on purpose. 

 

He has a style that can sometime get the better of him and tries to emulate other commercial shows by taken on board bits that work the Dekotaing them, which sometimes works and sometimes fails. He has started to copy our marketing model which is why he is getting many non modellers to the shows, which is great and always has flyers at exhibitions.   It doesn't take long to work out all the different model railway clubs are from the same source as all the flyers have the same format.   I know like us, he often does own in-house catering and has asked how we do it and all the food prep certificates you need, and from it we should see a more professional aspect to that side (past shows he ran  had family members arguing over who is serving which cheese roll).

 

I don't know why the events he runs have fictitious names, commercially many brands do that, a local farm sausage in Tescos at a farm that does not exist.   It will obviously work for the public but for the modelling community, obvious to spot.    I am not saying he does it for the following marketing reason, but I know when we advertise our shows on UK modelshops which as a site gets lots of hits,  the event is formatted that the club or organiser is listed then the area of the event ie    THE LONDON THEATRE  then Sevenoaks Show.   This can show that the event is in London, not Sevenoaks.    He may have just used a name so that they don't all say DEKOTA DIBDIN, as is proved from posts on this discussion, that will stop some attending an event he runs.  I am not saying it is a good marketing plan he is operating, just given a suggestion maybe why. 

 

The format of being the only trader there is a odd choice I admit and he is getting more into general toys to reflect the attendees at the shows he runs.  I have noticed at a few shows he runs other traders so hopefully he is starting to accept trade stands bring modelers as much as the layouts.  

 

One thing I must praise is that yes, he is building a little empire of shows,but he is careful I found not to tread on any local club and do a show in the same location.   He isn't competing with local shows but bringing a new show to a new area and that can only be good for the Model railway world.

 

Some shows he does he raises a portion for charity, some may be fully commercial.   He lists the charities he is supporting and so easy to check if money is going to them, as by law he has to declare that, and how much was raised.   So questions on here about the charity aspect of his shows, shouldn't really be raised.

 

If anyone is annoyed at the fictitious model railway clubs, he does events for, he isn't doing anything wrong, just a bit misguided but for retribution, and I will come clean,   a few of the exhibitors and trades people have been having a joke on him for the last few years playing him at the same game and making up a number of exhibitions , which they all attend. These include three I fictitiously run in Offenbach, Germany, Calais and off course the big one I run in MOSCOW oh and Caterham!    Knowing he will try and tap into that market or try and work out how we do it has been endless fun.  We did it because he is Dekoka, and he is a main player and character in the exhibition scene and bottom line is we do all actually at the end of the day like him.  

[dasatcopthorne]

Look, anyone who knows Dekota, accepts he can be annoying, secretive, pushy, very easy to wind up for fun and a bit Heath Robinson in the way he does things. He is also one of the most committed and hardworking people I have come across at exhibitions, and get below the surface actually a very informative bloke on model railways, and I allow him to have a trade stand at my show as he has excellent customer care and although selling secondhand, takes pride in what and how he sells, including shrink wrapping locos etc. He also p&^sed me of last year at our New Cross show when he got free trade space as he said he will be bringing narrow gauge layout, and turned up with a baseboard with a grass hill on it! no trains, just a hill, but at the same time, he is easy to forgive as I don't think he winds people up on purpose.

 

He has a style that can sometime get the better of him and tries to emulate other commercial shows by taken on board bits that work the Dekotaing them, which sometimes works and sometimes fails. He has started to copy our marketing model which is why he is getting many non modellers to the shows, which is great and always has flyers at exhibitions. It doesn't take long to work out all the different model railway clubs are from the same source as all the flyers have the same format. I know like us, he often does own in-house catering and has asked how we do it and all the food prep certificates you need, and from it we should see a more professional aspect to that side (past shows he ran had family members arguing over who is serving which cheese roll).

 

I don't know why the events he runs have fictitious names, commercially many brands do that, a local farm sausage in Tescos at a farm that does not exist. It will obviously work for the public but for the modelling community, obvious to spot. I am not saying he does it for the following marketing reason, but I know when we advertise our shows on UK modelshops which as a site gets lots of hits, the event is formatted that the club or organiser is listed then the area of the event ie THE LONDON THEATRE then Sevenoaks Show. This can show that the event is in London, not Sevenoaks. He may have just used a name so that they don't all say DEKOTA DIBDIN, as is proved from posts on this discussion, that will stop some attending an event he runs. I am not saying it is a good marketing plan he is operating, just given a suggestion maybe why.

 

The format of being the only trader there is a odd choice I admit and he is getting more into general toys to reflect the attendees at the shows he runs. I have noticed at a few shows he runs other traders so hopefully he is starting to accept trade stands bring modelers as much as the layouts.

 

One thing I must praise is that yes, he is building a little empire of shows,but he is careful I found not to tread on any local club and do a show in the same location. He isn't competing with local shows but bringing a new show to a new area and that can only be good for the Model railway world.

 

Some shows he does he raises a portion for charity, some may be fully commercial. He lists the charities he is supporting and so easy to check if money is going to them, as by law he has to declare that, and how much was raised. So questions on here about the charity aspect of his shows, shouldn't really be raised.

 

If anyone is annoyed at the fictitious model railway clubs, he does events for, he isn't doing anything wrong, just a bit misguided but for retribution, and I will come clean, a few of the exhibitors and trades people have been having a joke on him for the last few years playing him at the same game and making up a number of exhibitions , which they all attend. These include three I fictitiously run in Offenbach, Germany, Calais and off course the big one I run in MOSCOW oh and Caterham! Knowing he will try and tap into that market or try and work out how we do it has been endless fun. We did it because he is Dekoka, and he is a main player and character in the exhibition scene and bottom line is we do all actually at the end of the day like him.

 

What more can I say.

 

Ah. Just noticed. Dekota Dibben has a Trade Stand at your show!

 

 

Dave

Edited June 23, 2016 by dasatcopthorne

[cromptonnut]

I seem to recall a "lively debate" about the New Cross show somewhere in history for similar reasons.

[The Stationmaster]

I seem to recall a "lively debate" about the New Cross show somewhere in history for similar reasons.

 

A check on Dakota's past postings on here shows that he has been 'promoting' exhibitions for several years, and mentioning some of them on RMweb.  In fact I think I became aware of the Wallingford show last year from a post of his two fairly local (to Wallingford) clubs had layouts at that show.

[straxman]

What more can I say.

 

Ah. Just noticed. Dekota Dibben has a Trade Stand at your show!

 

 

Dave

 

As a trader of secondhand model railways, you would expect him to have a stand at other events. As been posted earlier on this thread, he has a stand at the Chatham event, Folkstone is another one where he is a regular. He has been trading since he was 17. How many young people take a chance to start up a business at that age?? If so, how many of them are still going after nearly 8 years?? If you met him I'm sure you would see how enthuiastic he is about model railways almost to the point of obsession. Perhaps you may even make a friend.

Edited June 23, 2016 by straxman

[cromptonnut]

 If you met him I'm sure you would see how enthuiastic he is about model railways almost to the point of obsession.

 

We've all experienced that sort of people at shows.

 

Whatever happened to "Rubber Band Man"?

[straxman]

Whatever happened to "Rubber Band Man"?

 

If its the guy I'm thinking of we call him the Commentator. Last saw him was at the South West Herts event in May......... Always nice to talk to him, to find out how he is.

[cromptonnut]

If its the guy I'm thinking of we call him the Commentator. Last saw him was at the South West Herts event in May......... Always nice to talk to him, to find out how he is.

 

Quite possibly the same guy, haven't seen him for ages although now I've moved I don't frequent "north of the river" much.

[bbishop]

Nope. Dakota (and I think that is the correct spelling) is definitely not The Commentator. Actually I haven't seen TC doe quite a while. I do know his name, but don't think this forum is the place to divulge it.

 

Bill

[russianlayout]

I seem to recall a "lively debate" about the New Cross show somewhere in history for similar reasons.

 

yes, a number of people objected to the fact that New Cross and Sevenoaks are commercial shows and are run by a theatre, not a MRC.  Maybe Dekota did what he did, as he saw how some people reacted when we made it clear from the start that we run commercial shows under our company banner.  Maybe instead he did it as a marketing ploy or for a higher ranking on google, I don't know, you will have to ask him.  Everyone has the right not to exhibit or attend as a customer a commercial show and as an exhibitor they may charge higher expenses for attending commercial shows.   I personally would not follow Dekota's style of business plan which is high risk, low return and hard maybe to manage with the growing number of exhibitions and far widespread for a single operator, but good on him for doing it and taking the risk.   I have seen some of the shows he runs like DEAL which was heaving, so he defo made money, some reports on here of shows they attended where numbers are down, so he might of made a loss. The thing is he went for it and is a hard worker and great to see someone run a business from the age of 17.    Yes, he made a mistake and misjudged how some would react on here to names he used in relation to who ran the local shows.  From posts on here, he has removed some of these already.     I made it clear in the previous posting on here, he is not a personal friend and he has wound me up in the past and no doubt will do again in the future, but give him  a break people.   If someone can come back with a list of more things they have done this year to promote this hobby to new blood more then Dekota has - things like supporting traders by buying things doesn't count as you are actually supporting commercial operators who use the hobby for commercial gain. Better still is to list those things on the numerous forum groups set up my model railway fans and not on here, which is a forum group set up as part of a commercial enterprise and a successful one, and sole purpose is to gain readership or advertising revenue, again nothing wrong with that.  So anyone who bleats on from this forum about they have a stance and will not support any commercial operators making money out of the hobby for their own gain, please prove you mean it and delete your account from here.  No readership, no advertising, this forum will shut very fast.  by the way, I am not asking cromptonnut to justify the above and deleting their account,  he has made some valid points and raised questions which should be asked.   I am aiming it at anyone who wants to make a public stand about we should all not support any show which isn't run by a MRC.  

Edited June 24, 2016 by russianlayout

[russianlayout]

What more can I say.

 

Ah. Just noticed. Dekota Dibben has a Trade Stand at your show!

 

 

Dave

 

 

yes,  as I said in post he has annoyed me in the past so won't get free trade space in return for bringing a layout ever again, but he as a trader is still great on customer service and the models he sells are presented with care, hence why is going to be allowed to trade at my show and from reports here, other shows run by other people. 

[gismorail]

Having read through this thread mainly to see what all the fuss is about at a time when clubs are struggling to make exhibitions pay and in many cases this is a way of keeping a club going money wise outside normal subscriptions I can understand peoples concern regarding these events. Having said that as long as all the H&S issues are covered during these events is any law being broken. 

[Phil Parker]

 Everyone has the right not to exhibit or attend as a customer a commercial show and as an exhibitor they may charge higher expenses for attending commercial shows.  

 

Very true. But if the show is marketed and booked as "Random Town MRC" then it's not obvious that it's a commerical show unless you know the man concerned. All anyone really wants is transparency.

[Kenton]

 

Very true. But if the show is marketed and booked as "Random Town MRC" then it's not obvious that it's a commerical show unless you know the man concerned. All anyone really wants is transparency.

 

True in this case as with so much in life. But getting it is not a requirement.

 

I just cannot see what all the fuss is about. If this guy puts on a show and exhibitors bring their layouts I cannot see the difference between this and the other shows. I am not a member of a club and therefore have no allegiance to them, this is no different that any other commercial show (I define all club shows as commercial as the club is taking my money in exchange for providing me with entertainment). If that entertainment is good then I'll support it by attending anything else is just petty squabbling IMO.

[cromptonnut]

 by the way, I am not asking cromptonnut to justify the above and deleting their account,  he has made some valid points and raised questions which should be asked.  

 

If you look back in the forum (somewhere) I was never a fan of RMWeb being "taken over" by a commercial enterprise, and to be fair still am not, but the price to pay being the advertisments (most of which are at least relevant) instead of paying for acces is one I am happy to put up with, and of course the "previews" and press releases is beneficial through the media tie-ins (if, occasionally expensive on the credit card...).  I suppose I - like many - was here long before the BRM tie-in and continue to contribute my little part unaffected.

 

I tend not to go to the "big shows" - many of which are hugely commercial events - for the simple reason that I can attend few shows due to working a shift pattern making it difficult for me, but also because many of them are so far away (apart from Alexandra Palace) but it's all about cost, if I'm spending £30 to get there and another £10 to get in that's £40 in modelling tokens I don't have.

[The Stationmaster]

If you look back in the forum (somewhere) I was never a fan of RMWeb being "taken over" by a commercial enterprise, and to be fair still am not, but the price to pay being the advertisments (most of which are at least relevant) instead of paying for acces is one I am happy to put up with, and of course the "previews" and press releases is beneficial through the media tie-ins (if, occasionally expensive on the credit card...).  I suppose I - like many - was here long before the BRM tie-in and continue to contribute my little part unaffected.

 

I tend not to go to the "big shows" - many of which are hugely commercial events - for the simple reason that I can attend few shows due to working a shift pattern making it difficult for me, but also because many of them are so far away (apart from Alexandra Palace) but it's all about cost, if I'm spending £30 to get there and another £10 to get in that's £40 in modelling tokens I don't have.

 

That, I'm sure is the situation for many people but on the other side of the coin what this chap seems to be doing is providing small local exhibitions which people can in many instances walk to or drive a short distance and which have the potential benefit of introducing the face of the hobby to folk who wouldn't otherwise go to a model railway exhibition - whoever organises it.  Two years running the exhibition in Wallingford has attracted faces and people I have never seen at any other shows in the general area - and I attend most of them, every year.  Even if only one of those people develops an interest and takes the plunge into our hobby then in my view it's worth it.

 

I certainly don't hold with him representing himself as a club which seems to happen for some of his shows, but for that's basically for the simple reason that as far as I know he is not a club.  That apart I seriously doubt if anyone from outside our world would know the difference until, perhaps, they ask if they can join the club, but I doubt many people attend purely for that reason (I accept I might be wrong).  And I do wish he would come on here and explain things for himself but then I can equally understand any reluctance on his part in the light of some of the things others have said.

 

At the end of the day we are talking about a hobby and I can't honestly see that anything he is doing is harming anyone (evidence to the contrary could show that I'm wrong - so if anyone has any let's hear it). 

Edited June 24, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[Phil Parker]

   

True in this case as with so much in life. But getting it is not a requirement.

 

I just cannot see what all the fuss is about. If this guy puts on a show and exhibitors bring their layouts I cannot see the difference between this and the other shows. I am not a member of a club and therefore have no allegiance to them, this is no different that any other commercial show (I define all club shows as commercial as the club is taking my money in exchange for providing me with entertainment). If that entertainment is good then I'll support it by attending anything else is just petty squabbling IMO.

 

You are missing my point. I'm not worried about the paying public, as long as they enjoy the show it doesn't matter who puts it on.

 

The point I was making, if you read the quote, is that exhibitors may well be happy to give up time and money to take a layout to a show, if the profits go to a club. They are likely to be less keen if the profits go to a commecial operation. If it's clear what is happening, as it is with magazine run shows, then they can make their minds up. Hence, transparency is desirable.

[TonyA]

You are missing my point. I'm not worried about the paying public, as long as they enjoy the show it doesn't matter who puts it on.

 

The point I was making, if you read the quote, is that exhibitors may well be happy to give up time and money to take a layout to a show, if the profits go to a club. They are likely to be less keen if the profits go to a commecial operation. If it's clear what is happening, as it is with magazine run shows, then they can make their minds up. Hence, transparency is desirable.

 

I have followed this discussion with increasing bemusement. Are you suggesting that the layout owners who are approached to exhibit are unaware who is organising the show? Whilst the visiting public may be unaware, I cannot believe this applies to the exhibitors.

 

Many years ago I was approached by Dakota about exhibiting a layout. It was a verbal approach so I knew exactly who I was dealing with as I had seen him on several previous occasions at shows. It was not convenient so the invitation did not proceed.

However, he is not the only person who has asked me to exhibit outside a club structure and I have been happy to do so when I can. I enjoy exhibiting and often do not see the point in charging expenses when they are less than a couple of litres of petrol.

It is a lot cheaper and more enjoyable than going out for a round of golf.

 

I would not describe any of those organisers, including Dakota, as a commercial organisation in the way that the magazines are. They appear to be just hard working enthusiasts who are demonstrating our hobby to a wider public, which is more than I for one can manage.

 

Tony

[Phil Parker]

I have followed this discussion with increasing bemusement. Are you suggesting that the layout owners who are approached to exhibit are unaware who is organising the show? Whilst the visiting public may be unaware, I cannot believe this applies to the exhibitors.

 

Many years ago I was approached by Dakota about exhibiting a layout. It was a verbal approach so I knew exactly who I was dealing with as I had seen him on several previous occasions at shows. It was not convenient so the invitation did not proceed.

However, he is not the only person who has asked me to exhibit outside a club structure and I have been happy to do so when I can. I enjoy exhibiting and often do not see the point in charging expenses when they are less than a couple of litres of petrol.

It is a lot cheaper and more enjoyable than going out for a round of golf.

 

I would not describe any of those organisers, including Dakota, as a commercial organisation in the way that the magazines are. They appear to be just hard working enthusiasts who are demonstrating our hobby to a wider public, which is more than I for one can manage.

 

Tony

 

I don't know Dakota so if someone approached me asking if I wanted to exhibit at a show organised for "Random Town MRC" then I'd assume it was for a model railway club. Being approached by a wide selection of people organising shows is pretty common.

 

If Dakota is organising a show to make a profit then he's exactly the same as a magazine based show. Since the point of the show seems to be to attract people to his trade stand, possibly more so. 

 

As I say, if it's clear who is getting the money then I don't have a problem. From many of the posts on this thread though, the organisers name doesn't appear on the show and that concerns me.

[jonhall]

I suspect most clubs rely on the income boost that an annual show provides, especially in the South East with rents so high, and premises in such demand, and I think Dakota's shows risk damaging the club scene for two reasons 

 

1) There *may* be an element of direct abstraction of money - some visitors really might only do one or other show, but not both (for time, money or other reasons)  that's probably very difficult to prove one way or the other.

 

2) I think there is a risk that new starters, or the 'casually interested' may come across a '£5 for 5 layouts and a couple of secondhand traders' show of the type that he promotes, and then is put off going to a £7 show even if it's one of the bigger club shows that give 20+ layouts and 20+ traders - 'we' have often ruminated on here about how good value a model railway show is vs a couple of hours in a cinema or football match, so I don't think its too much of a stretch to believe that if Joe Public's expectation is that £5 got him 5 layouts last time, then a £7 show would get you 7, and that wasn't 'worth it'.

 

I can't comment on other club shows, but the excess that our show generates is entirely 're-invested' in the hobby by covering the weekly shortfall between sub's and the rent. If every year that excess is eroded by a couple of hundred pounds (because we had ~30 fewer visitors through the door) then at some point we will either stop meeting and building layouts to reduce the outgoings, or stop altogether, and I think that fewer 2 day club shows which have a budget to bring layouts from across the country will make the hobby a worse place.

 

Jon

[Kenton]

 

The point I was making, if you read the quote, is that exhibitors may well be happy to give up time and money to take a layout to a show, if the profits go to a club. They are likely to be less keen if the profits go to a commecial operation. If it's clear what is happening, as it is with magazine run shows, then they can make their minds up. Hence, transparency is desirable.

 

Not missing the point at all.

 

But perhaps not making it clear enough. Exhibitors are not being forced to exhibit. Presumably they do it for the pleasure of entertaining the public; or the the I want to show off my skills; or for the small return on their expenses. We know the last to be very unlikely.

 

Are we seriously believing that they are not adult/competent enough to ask where the proceeds of the exhibition are going? Then make the decision to attend by free choice?

 

So exhibitors are attending with eyes wide open and in full knowledge.

 

As to where that "profit" goes as I said AFAIC it makes no difference if it is a charity, a model railway club, an orphanage, a big public listed company, or the pocket of the individual show manager - it is all the same and I am thankful for the entertainment.

 

Also perhaps I am atypical of the man in the street visitor to shows. But I believe most individuals are intelligent enough to understand the difference between the 5 layouts for £5 show and the 20+ layout 20+ traders (often impersonal and overcrowded show. (which from a beginner's perspective are almost always made up of very large layouts built and exclusively operated to a skill level that is/certain seems beyond my meagre train set.

 

That small venue 5 simple friendly layouts for £5 show with reasonable low priced s/h trade support with no fancy detailing culture shock is very appealing and far more encouraging to the beginner. They may then progress to a bigger show and may even join a club. But joining club is not for everyone, I seriously doubt if even 1% of RMWeb are members of a club or would even consider joining one.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Kenton

[Phil Parker]

  

Are we seriously believing that they are not adult/competent enough to ask where the proceeds of the exhibition are going? Then make the decision to attend by free choice?

So exhibitors are attending with eyes wide open and in full knowledge.

So when the exhibition manager says he is from "Random Town MRC" we are to conclude what? That they have made that club up?

 

Presumably we should all rush to check the club out on-line, waterboard the manager etc. before accepting?

 

All I am saying, repeatedly, is that it's not unreasonable for the organiser of the show to be honest about who they are and not pretend to be something or someone else.