************* Presents?

[Paul Cram]

All I can say is that my travelling expenses were covered and I enjoyed a day out playing trains.

[Torper]

Such "reciprocal arrangements" - the "show for a show" system , which I gather is rife in Scotland - are pernicious and to the disbenefit of most of the stakeholders in the hobby. This is not an argument in favour of club shows, but an argument against them

 

Firstly, the paying spectator is disadvantaged because the layouts which benefit from these "you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours" deals tend to be poorer quality. Scottish experience seems to be that this system results in shows containing plenty of mediocre club layouts which are not there because they are good, but because Club B is taking advantage of its guaranteed slot at Club A's show to give an outing to a layout which isn't really good enough to get an invitation on its own merits. That's not good for the punter, and it's not particularly good for the hobby either. Don't we want our best stuff in the public shop window??

 

Secondly  it creates a protected niche for mediocre layouts, which are guaranteed a place in the sun so that two club treasurers can "line their pockets", rather than on their merit as modelling. I'm not sure how that benefits the hobby.

 

Thirdly, it seriously disadvantages the considerable number of modellers who build exhibition layouts as private individuals . They are partly frozen out , and passed over by shows in favour poorer-quality layouts which happen to be owned by a club. "Its not what you know, it's who you know " is not a terribly attractive proposition, and the idea that good layouts by good modellers won't be exhibited because they are not built by a club group isn't something that warms my heart.

 

Fourthly - it is very likely to disadvantage the people behind the layouts concerned . If the layout is not being paid expenses, it's  a near certainty that the people taking it to the show won't be getting their travel expenses covered. Effectively they are being made to treat their travel and other costs as a donation to club funds - probably made under a degree of moral blackmail about their duty to help the club - and that's not good for anyone either.  Scottish shows don't even feed their exhibitors - more money for club funds!

 

As a Scot living in Scotland, can I say how I totally, 100% agree with that.  It's why I now go to so few Scottish shows (Perth being an honourable exception).

 

DT

Edited March 2, 2017 by Torper

[LBRJ]

I am trying to play "catch up" with this thread - But after reading most of it in some detail, I am not sure what exactly it is I am trying to catch up with?

 

It would appear that ideally only model railway clubs with more than one member; and who don't really want to make any money, should be allowed to host model railway shows; however if they do make any money that is "Good for the hobby" - Who's hobby we are referring to as it being good for for isn't actually mentioned; I am pretty sure it isn't my small part of it.

 

If I do go to a show it is to see something I want to see, or maybe to buy some supplies to carry progress on in  my solitary hobby; though the internet works pretty well for the latter.

 

Whether it is some dude called DD or Little Happening MRC make anything out of it never crosses my mind....Its all money out of my pocket to "somewhere". Im not and don't want to be. a member of a MRC so why should I specifically want to support one of them 50 or so miles from where I live?

[298]

Such "reciprocal arrangements" - the "show for a show" system , which I gather is rife in Scotland - are pernicious and to the disbenefit of most of the stakeholders in the hobby. This is not an argument in favour of club shows, but an argument against them

 

Firstly, the paying spectator is disadvantaged because the layouts which benefit from these "you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours" deals tend to be poorer quality. Scottish experience seems to be that this system results in shows containing plenty of mediocre club layouts which are not there because they are good, but because Club B is taking advantage of its guaranteed slot at Club A's show to give an outing to a layout which isn't really good enough to get an invitation on its own merits. That's not good for the punter, and it's not particularly good for the hobby either. Don't we want our best stuff in the public shop window??

 

Secondly  it creates a protected niche for mediocre layouts, which are guaranteed a place in the sun so that two club treasurers can "line their pockets", rather than on their merit as modelling. I'm not sure how that benefits the hobby.

 

Thirdly, it seriously disadvantages the considerable number of modellers who build exhibition layouts as private individuals . They are partly frozen out , and passed over by shows in favour poorer-quality layouts which happen to be owned by a club. "Its not what you know, it's who you know " is not a terribly attractive proposition, and the idea that good layouts by good modellers won't be exhibited because they are not built by a club group isn't something that warms my heart.

 

Fourthly - it is very likely to disadvantage the people behind the layouts concerned . If the layout is not being paid expenses, it's  a near certainty that the people taking it to the show won't be getting their travel expenses covered. Effectively they are being made to treat their travel and other costs as a donation to club funds - probably made under a degree of moral blackmail about their duty to help the club - and that's not good for anyone either.  Scottish shows don't even feed their exhibitors - more money for club funds!

 

(And as for club members being expected to exhibit their own layouts as part of such a deal - if anyone ever suggests I ought to take my layout to a show at my own expense so that a club can get a free layout at a show as a quid pro quo  in some backroom deal they will get a very curt response)

 

The only people this wretched lurk favours is club treasurers.

 

It needs to be said that a majority of active modellers - probably a substantial majority - are not members of clubs. A majority of club members are not actively involved with club layouts. What's being suggested is effectively that a fairly small group within the hobby should be the exclusive financial beneficiaries of the exhibition circuit, and any money it generates.

 

 

I think I failed to explain what I meant by "reciprocal", as I have only experienced a friendly partnership between clubs where there is a trust that layouts meet each others criteria regarding appearance and running standards (and the number of operators), etc, and expenses are paid as normal. Basically a system whereby layouts are accepted without the organisers having to scout for them. I certainly didn't imply that layouts are of a poor standard or its some kind of financial fiddle, or similar to a system sometimes alo used in Scotland where "expenses" (plus any excess revenue) is paid back proportionally to the size of the layout.

 

I've never heard of a system where you don't claim for expenses along the lines of the reciprocal arrangement you describe, but something that does annoy me is someone claiming every penny for dragging a 40yr old dusty plank full of RTR out of their loft to go to a one day show, when they and their mates who live locally and would certainly go anyway get in for nowt and have a free lunch and drinks (and perhaps a discount from a generous trader). For this reason it presents to me a moral conundrum as I feel I ought to start charging for my expenses at a DD show, instead of just enjoying a day with my hobby.

[Dagworth]

I am trying to play "catch up" with this thread - But after reading most of it in some detail, I am not sure what exactly it is I am trying to catch up with?

 

It would appear that ideally only model railway clubs with more than one member; and who don't really want to make any money, should be allowed to host model railway shows; however if they do make any money that is "Good for the hobby" - Who's hobby we are referring to as it being good for for isn't actually mentioned; I am pretty sure it isn't my small part of it.

 

If I do go to a show it is to see something I want to see, or maybe to buy some supplies to carry progress on in  my solitary hobby; though the internet works pretty well for the latter.

 

Whether it is some dude called DD or Little Happening MRC make anything out of it never crosses my mind....Its all money out of my pocket to "somewhere". Im not and don't want to be. a member of a MRC so why should I specifically want to support one of them 50 or so miles from where I live?

Putting it simply

 

Clubs can organise shows to benefit themselves - no problem

Commercial companies can organise shows to benefit themselves - no problem

individuals can organise shows to benefit themselves - no problem

 

Individuals organising shows to benefit themselves but making their advertising look like the show is organised by a *non-existent club* - problem 

 

It's all down to how it is advertised. 

Personally I would much rather that my thousands of hours of work be shown where a club or a charity will benefit and there I will happily show the layout for minimal expenses and often at considerable personal expense. I will attend commercial shows with a layout quite happily but there my expenses claim will cover the entire cost of my attendance. I will not exhibit at a show where someone is dishonestly making money for themselves off the back of my work. My working time is enough of someone else making money off my labour, b*ggered if they are going to do it off of my hobby time.

 

Andi

[LBRJ]

I understand that from an exhibitors PoV Andi....But I was looking at it from a visitor perspective.

 

If i go to look at small trains, who is doing it doesn't really cross my mind, and all shows must advertise the hobby to more people, maybe even encourage the latent urge for participation.

 

I have visited two of the shows in C'Nam (  Cheltenham GW and that Churchy one at Charlton Bishops).....one when i lived on the Forest, and one all the way from E Lancs. so I will go to small show for a good cause, but i never knew what those causes were!

[Dagworth]

I understand that from an exhibitors PoV Andi....But I was looking at it from a visitor perspective.

 

If i go to look at small trains, who is doing it doesn't really cross my mind, and all shows must advertise the hobby to more people, maybe even encourage the latent urge for participation.

 

I have visited two of the shows in C'Nam (  Cheltenham GW and that Churchy one at Charlton Bishops).....one when i lived on the Forest, and one all the way from E Lancs. so I will go to small show for a good cause, but i never knew what those causes were!

Mike lists all the beneficiaries of his shows on the show website http://www.cheltmodrail.org.uk/ including raising nearly £34,000 pounds for CLIC http://www.cheltmodrail.org.uk/clic.html 

I'm very happy to support a show like that either by demoing, taking a layout or as a paying punter.

 

Andi

[jonhall]

 

 

It would appear that ideally only model railway clubs with more than one member; and who don't really want to make any money, should be allowed to host model railway shows; however if they do make any money that is "Good for the hobby" - Who's hobby we are referring to as it being good for for isn't actually mentioned; I am pretty sure it isn't my small part of it.

 

 

I think that the benefits to the hobby of club shows are much better defined than you make out,.

 

The benefits to the club is easy, 1) they make money which is plowed back into the hobby, either by paying for the clubs layouts, or paying for the club to have somewhere to meet and build/store them, and 2) to allow them a shop window to encourage new membership.

 

The benefit to the larger hobby? I'd be reasonably willing to bet that with a few notable exceptions (Including Dagworth's layouts) most of the larger layouts on the circuit are either club built, or rely on either a club member ship to help operate, or friends from within the club scene. I'm not saying all big layouts, but a good number, probably the majority, and if you want to keep seeing these, then the club scene needs to be kept healthy.

 

My OPINION is that DD's shows dilute the number of visitors available, dilutes the number of layouts available to exhibit, and potentially damages the reputation of 'visitor experience' of model railway shows, and therefore may result in profitable club shows becoming marginal, and in turn clubs failing, particularly in the South East because its very difficult to make club economics work when meeting venue hire is so expensive, income from the annual exhibition is the only way a lot of clubs can keep meeting. I can't prove DD's shows damage club ehxibitions, and I suspect it could take DECADES to play out, but clubs are important to the hobby, and exhibition revenue is important for them to keep going.

 

Jon

[298]

I understand that from an exhibitors PoV Andi....But I was looking at it from a visitor perspective.

 

If i go to look at small trains, who is doing it doesn't really cross my mind, and all shows must advertise the hobby to more people, maybe even encourage the latent urge for participation.

 

 

Small trains...? Of course.

 

Small layouts though? Nothing against them, my home layout is small and I'm truly thrilled by the up and coming "Cameo" genre, but there is a danger that any layouts that require more than one vehicle and a couple of operators will only be the preserve of the larger shows (by which I don't mean those that claim to have 30+ layouts in a small church Hall), as these profit orientated one day events can't make the economics work for them and the ageing operators become reluctant to commit to such events as it can involve a lot of hard work for just a few hours exhibiting.

[Graham_Muz]

 

I also remember Hornby Magazine's layout appearing at Southwold show a few years back, which raises interesting questions about exploitation and "what do they put back into the hobby?" (Black Country Blues anyone?)

 

Just to clarify this statement, Hornby Magazine have exhibited in the past at a number of shows across the county, with both a sales stand and with a layout as well, usually when attending such shows they are sponsors, (often for many years running, as was the case with the Southwold show and also the likes of Spalding, Warrington, Bristol, GCR, Southampton etc)   to more than cover the costs of the sales stand space, programme advert and no expenses are charged for the bonus of bringing a layout to the show.  Yes it is to promote the magazine but at the same time it does financial support the local club shows they have attended.

[The Stationmaster]

I think that the benefits to the hobby of club shows are much better defined than you make out,.

 

The benefits to the club is easy, 1) they make money which is plowed back into the hobby, either by paying for the clubs layouts, or paying for the club to have somewhere to meet and build/store them, and 2) to allow them a shop window to encourage new membership.

 

The benefit to the larger hobby? I'd be reasonably willing to bet that with a few notable exceptions (Including Dagworth's layouts) most of the larger layouts on the circuit are either club built, or rely on either a club member ship to help operate, or friends from within the club scene. I'm not saying all big layouts, but a good number, probably the majority, and if you want to keep seeing these, then the club scene needs to be kept healthy.

 

My OPINION is that DD's shows dilute the number of visitors available, dilutes the number of layouts available to exhibit, and potentially damages the reputation of 'visitor experience' of model railway shows, and therefore may result in profitable club shows becoming marginal, and in turn clubs failing, particularly in the South East because its very difficult to make club economics work when meeting venue hire is so expensive, income from the annual exhibition is the only way a lot of clubs can keep meeting. I can't prove DD's shows damage club ehxibitions, and I suspect it could take DECADES to play out, but clubs are important to the hobby, and exhibition revenue is important for them to keep going.

 

Jon

 

I simply cannot see how DD's shows, of themselves, dilute attendance at other shows or dilute the availability of layouts for other shows - that just doesn't make sense to me at all.  In fact if anything - certainly within, say 40 miles of me - the thing which could be said to dilute the availability of layouts is various clubs' exhibitions including layouts which i have seen at other clubs' shows within the past couple of years - if DD is doing any diluting on that front his presence is making little difference to what is already happening (not that I'm criticising it in any case).  In fact his first show at Wallingford produced one  (club) layout which had not been on the exhibition circuit for some years, one regular at various shows, and some I'd not seen before. And the fact that I attended both his Wallingford shows didn't stop me going to other shows and nor did it stop the few people there who i also see at other shows going to those shows.

 

As far as potentially damaging the reputation of 'visitor experience' that can be a very subjective view and is clearly going to be down to experience of a particular show by an individual.  For a small show his first Wallingford show was very good however his second show there was not so good.  i would simply compare that with a well known show organised by an 'established body' which is a 'commercial grouping' of a number of model railway clubs for the purposes of running a show - and it was a show I attended annually for many years but then it started to get repetitive and go down hill with the standard of layouts tending to fall off.  That put me off going to that show and I know it has put off others as well but it hasn't stopped me going to other shows - if you are interested in the hobby I don't see how a poor experience of one organisation's show is going to put you off a show organised by someone else; it's like saying I wont shop in Tesco because I bought some awful meat in, say, Sainsbury's.

 

As far as clubs 'failing ' are concerned if that is down to DD's shows then there's something seriously wrong with the 'failing' clubs and their organisation.  Within a reasonable distance of me there are several very successful clubs and they are successful because of their organisation and no doubt in some respects the way they present the hobby.  One of them runs two (very different) exhibitions every year and is now branching into 'open days' while the other has an annual exhibition and one or two open days per annum - they will attract potential recruits by their own efforts, not by blaming somebody else.

[Steamport Southport]

Reading through the thread, I am not sure that there is any great groundswell of opinion against shows arranged on a commercial basis, as long as that is what they are advertised as.

 

Any objections seem to be against the idea of an individual putting on an exhibition and making it look as if it is for the benefit of a model railway club.

 

 

 

That's my understanding of the situation.

 

 

Why the need for the (town name) PRESENTS? It does seem to a casual observer that it's an organisation from that area "presenting" the show. Which it clearly isn't.

 

If it was DD Promotions Presents ******** Model Railway Exhibition (or something similar) then fair enough. As long as he wasn't treading on someone else's toes then I doubt there would be many complaints..

 

 

If he just dispensed with the (Town name) PRESENTS then I can see most people dropping their objections. It's just poorly worded advertising.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

The thread title reminds me of the www.whorepresents.com saga.  

 

 

 

Jason

[Mike Bellamy]

The York show has been mentioned a couple of times in previous postings - this isn't a 'Club' show and so should it be classed as 'Commercial'?  I believe that it was at one time organised by 'The Friends of York Model Railway Show' but now they have created a Limited Company. Local Clubs support the event such as Ebor (the model railway club in York) and Hull (home club of some of the organising team) and so I guess they benefit from some of the income and I believe the rest is reinvested into the next show - and it's been like this for over 50 years.

 

I know that many years ago, our then Exhibition Manager (now long gone) contacted Mike Cook about where the income went as he felt that it was a commercial show and was detrimental to his own efforts here in Derby! I have visited and exhibited at York Show and would be more than happy to do so again.

 

The point I am trying to make here is that this was probably started off in the same way as the DD shows - one person or a small group organising a show and putting the surplus back into the hobby by organising more shows - York is one big show each year and DD has lots of small shows across a number of venues - but they are both promoting railway modelling.

 

.

[Izzy]

My OPINION is that DD's shows .............. and potentially damages the reputation of 'visitor experience' of model railway shows.....

 

Jon

 

I find the local clubs in the my area (covering a 60 mile radius) are quite able to do that themselves without any assistance from commercailly based shows. So much so that I no longer bother with any of them.

 

Izzy

[cromptonnut]

I can't prove DD's shows damage club ehxibitions, and I suspect it could take DECADES to play out, but clubs are important to the hobby, and exhibition revenue is important for them to keep going.

 

I agree to an extent, however aren't most of these shows in areas where there is no active club?

 

I live about 4 miles from Reigate, and the only really "active club" is the big one at Crawley, which has a very good annual exhibition and their own clubrooms and club layouts.  I would have joined them apart from my shift pattern meaning I could probably only manage one week out of every three at most, which isn't great for feeling "involved" or getting value for money out of my subs.

 

The only thing that really damages a club exhibition, and by extension the wider hobby, is a bad exhibition - and from attending Reigate, I would have said that there was nothing in particular that would stop me going again.

 

If you don't like the DD style of show, then fine, nobody forces any of us to go to any exhibition do they?

[Deltic]

"On the Disposable cups. They probably were disposed of a the end of the day so you can rest easy.

 

There is no harm if these are washed and reusing some of these items. People are far too used to throwing things away after single use."

 

 

They are not designed to be re-used by different people - they cannot normally withstand hot enough washing water to kill off germs. Then there is the issue of food prep - you do not consume food whilst preparing food for consumption by the Public. Nor do you prepare meat and cheese filling on the same surface or use the same cutlery.

 

Not hearsay, but factual comments made by a visitor who was concerned about cups being collected out of rubbish bins to be re-use etc. But one point no one has asked was Public Liability insurance in place, some venues require that this is in place to protect themselves from any civil action that may occur on their premises.

 

Putting on any exhibition has a steep learning curve, there are people around whom can help - but advice needs to be sought and listened too.

[BoD]

"On the Disposable cups........

 

 

They are not designed to be re-used by different people - they cannot normally withstand hot enough washing water to kill off germs. Then there is the issue of food prep - you do not consume food whilst preparing food for consumption by the Public. Nor do you prepare meat and cheese filling on the same surface or use the same cutlery.

 

Who was doing the catering, the person organising the show or the venue itself? I imagine many club exhibitions are reliant on 'in-house' caterers.  In which case I am sure the organisers rely on the venue to ensure food hygiene regulations and good practice are followed.

 

Would the venue not also check that public liability insurance was in place either via themselves or the organiser before allowing the show to take place?

[Guest]

This thread is becoming truly hilarious, but no time for that - I'm off to sterilise my tea mug. What a dangerous world we live in...

[Ravenser]

Who was doing the catering, the person organising the show or the venue itself? I imagine many club exhibitions are reliant on 'in-house' caterers.  In which case I am sure the organisers rely on the venue to ensure food hygiene regulations and good practice are followed.

 

Would the venue not also check that public liability insurance was in place either via themselves or the organiser before allowing the show to take place?

 

Two elderly ladies. I very much doubt they were employed by the school

[The Stationmaster]

This thread is becoming truly hilarious, but no time for that - I'm off to sterilise my tea mug. What a dangerous world we live in...

 

Don't do that Pete - it spoils the taste of the tea

[valentino]

Two elderly ladies. I very much doubt they were employed by the school

Quite so.Both family members.

[peterl]

The York show has been mentioned a couple of times in previous postings - this isn't a 'Club' show and so should it be classed as 'Commercial'?  I believe that it was at one time organised by 'The Friends of York Model Railway Show' but now they have created a Limited Company. Local Clubs support the event such as Ebor (the model railway club in York) and Hull (home club of some of the organising team) and so I guess they benefit from some of the income and I believe the rest is reinvested into the next show - and it's been like this for over 50 years.

 

I know that many years ago, our then Exhibition Manager (now long gone) contacted Mike Cook about where the income went as he felt that it was a commercial show and was detrimental to his own efforts here in Derby! I have visited and exhibited at York Show and would be more than happy to do so again.

 

The point I am trying to make here is that this was probably started off in the same way as the DD shows - one person or a small group organising a show and putting the surplus back into the hobby by organising more shows - York is one big show each year and DD has lots of small shows across a number of venues - but they are both promoting railway modelling.

 

.

 

Hi Mike and others.

 

Just to put the record straight! York Show has become a private not for profit company limited by guarantee to protect the 15 people involved with organising it from what could be a major financial liability. While this is no different to the members of a club who will have unlimited liability unless they are a CIO or a Company, if their show should fail with large debts. Not sure about Derby's status in this respect but I'm sure Mike can advise.  Being a company does also have some other advantages. You only need to read the Company's Act to find them.

 

As for any surplus made at the York Show it is reinvested into the general funds to finance the following year's Show. And just for the record we do NOT always make a Surplus!

As of next year we will have to submit our financial details in the form of an Income & Expenditure Account and Balance Sheet, which will, as in the past have been Audited.

 

Our Articles of Association are very clear on how funds can be used. The Articles can be accessed from Company's House if you really want to read them.

 

Hope this helps

 

Peter

[Mike Bellamy]

Thanks Peter - very clear and understood - as for Derby, it's still organised by the Club and so as you say the Committee bears the full responsibility and liability. It was a long time ago that one of our previous exhibition managers was convinced that there must have been a lot of profit from York going somewhere - perhaps it's because soon after he started the Derby show he got a letter from the Inland Revenue asking how much he had been paid to run the show and why he hadn't declared it on his tax return (they got his details as he was named in a photo of the official opening in the local paper). When he told them how it worked, I then got a letter asking for copies of our accounts and we were taxed on the interest we received - a few years later they gave up asking as the amounts were so insignificant!  However this whole episode did result in contact with Mike Cook who explained where the (occasional) surplus went.

 

The point I was trying to make (rather badly) was that in a few years time the little shows from DD (the original subject of this topic) could be as successful and popular as York - from small acorns . . . . . !

 

As for a Not for Profit Company, this is something we may need to consider as our clubrooms are in danger of collapse and we need to investigate some serious repairs or even replacement and the need to raise funds. Some in the club think that by becoming a charity we can get it all paid for by grants - but who from and why should they support us !

 

Mike

.

[peterl]

Thanks Peter - very clear and understood - as for Derby, it's still organised by the Club and so as you say the Committee bears the full responsibility and liability. It was a long time ago that one of our previous exhibition managers was convinced that there must have been a lot of profit from York going somewhere - perhaps it's because soon after he started the Derby show he got a letter from the Inland Revenue asking how much he had been paid to run the show and why he hadn't declared it on his tax return (they got his details as he was named in a photo of the official opening in the local paper). When he told them how it worked, I then got a letter asking for copies of our accounts and we were taxed on the interest we received - a few years later they gave up asking as the amounts were so insignificant!  However this whole episode did result in contact with Mike Cook who explained where the (occasional) surplus went.

 

The point I was trying to make (rather badly) was that in a few years time the little shows from DD (the original subject of this topic) could be as successful and popular as York - from small acorns . . . . . !

 

As for a Not for Profit Company, this is something we may need to consider as our clubrooms are in danger of collapse and we need to investigate some serious repairs or even replacement and the need to raise funds. Some in the club think that by becoming a charity we can get it all paid for by grants - but who from and why should they support us !

 

Mike

.

 

Hi Mike

If you become a CIO you may find that some smallish grants are available. Not surprised that the Inland Revenue gave up on you.  York were for a time VAT registered.  Our turnover does get close sometimes, but the VAT inspectors politely told us to go away! Be careful re liability, I think you will find that ALL members of the club are equally liable not just the committee. Also you can't bail out after it happens as any ex-member who was a full member up to a year before the problem remains liable. You could set the club up as a CIO and the exhibition as a company limited by guarantee. A number of model railway organisation and clubs do use this route. It does have some advantages but needs very careful wording of the Articles etc.

Peter