Jump to content
*IMPORTANT* - Please check with any organisers website to see if an event is still proceeding before making a journey.

************* Presents?


dasatcopthorne
 Share

Recommended Posts

I don't have an axe to grind, but I do have one or two points regarding the Oxted show.

 

From a customer POV, it was very successful, but from a exhibitor POV, I have had better experiences.

 

I had very little communication from Dakota about the show. I didn't even know if they were providing food until the morning of the show!

 

Power supplies in the hall were mostly on the other side of the hall to the layouts, and this was taken up with a sizeable trade stall (Dakota's). My requests for power were met with "run an extension from the kitchen service hatch and then in front of a toilet door". Not ideal.

 

No plaque. I know it isn't always possible to provide, but perhaps a small momento of my presence at the show.

 

Asking everyone at the show (vistor, exhibitor, trader) if the were in or out in the EU referendum, and then cheering "Brexit!" whenever someone said out! Not really the place for a political poll gathering exercise.

 

I have a few other thoughts regarding the overall profit of the show, which aren't really needed here.

 

Quality of the layouts was very good, but a few minor niggles.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My requests for power were met with "run an extension from the kitchen service hatch and then in front of a toilet door". Not ideal.

 

Asking everyone at the show (vistor, exhibitor, trader) if the were in or out in the EU referendum, and then cheering "Brexit!" whenever someone said out! Not really the place for a political poll gathering exercise.

 

No axe to grind either. I wouldn't really care if a show was organised by a MRC or Tesco, quite frankly.

The first point (above) isn't acceptable.

The second would have annoyed me no end.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

It did annoy me no end. I did manage to tune it out after a while.

 

One thing I have noticed about these multiple Dakota shows is they usually have the same layouts (except the Torbay show).

 

I do wonder if there is any point to this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The Wallingford show is supporting the Wallingford and Cholsey Railway

 

I stand corrected on this, it was in fact supporting Sue Ryder.

 

It was disappointing on vistor numbers but as an exhibitor the other side of the coin was having the time to chat at length to those who showed interest or wanted to pick our brains.  Highlight of the day was the opportunity to have a lengthy chat with our very own Stationmaster.

Edited by nickwood
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Power supplies in the hall were mostly on the other side of the hall to the layouts, and this was taken up with a sizeable trade stall (Dakota's).

 

The pattern seems to revolve around his trade stall being the major trader at most shows, almost as if the layouts are just a secondary interest, if you look at the entries in UK Modelshops.

 

That in itself isn't a big issue but it does make you wonder whether 'running a model show for the public' is the main draw, or 'having a trade stand and not having to pay for the privilege' is the formula here, with the costs of the hall and exhibitors covered by entrance fees, given that various pointers show that the gentleman in question does, in fact, run a second hand model railway business.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pattern seems to revolve around his trade stall being the major trader at most shows, almost as if the layouts are just a secondary interest, if you look at the entries in UK Modelshops.

 

That in itself isn't a big issue but it does make you wonder whether 'running a model show for the public' is the main draw, or 'having a trade stand and not having to pay for the privilege' is the formula here, with the costs of the hall and exhibitors covered by entrance fees, given that various pointers show that the gentleman in question does, in fact, run a second hand model railway business.

 

It does seem like that on paper, but Dakota told me that he enjoys running these shows. I didn't really ask too much about the costs involved, but if he is doing this for the latter suggestion, he didn't make it apparent. As far as I am aware, the Oxted show wasn't in aid of a charity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The pattern seems to revolve around his trade stall being the major trader at most shows, almost as if the layouts are just a secondary interest, if you look at the entries in UK Modelshops.

 

That in itself isn't a big issue but it does make you wonder whether 'running a model show for the public' is the main draw, or 'having a trade stand and not having to pay for the privilege' is the formula here, with the costs of the hall and exhibitors covered by entrance fees, given that various pointers show that the gentleman in question does, in fact, run a second hand model railway business.

 

At Wallingford his secondhand stall was undoubtedly the biggest 'trade stand' but wasn't doing any business that I saw.  I did see him going round talking to exhibitors and one of them said that he organises the shows because he enjoys doing it - which seems as good a motive as many others.  No doubt sometimes he makes a  profit (and seemingly it goes to charity) but equally some of his shows might not be profitable or even cover their costs - but let's not overlook the fact that overall he is putting his time into presenting our hobby to folk in places where they might not otherwise get to see it locally.  Some clubs (e.g. Abingdon) have and do spread them selves and their shows away from their homebase area but I've yet to come across one which gets about as much ad this bloke does.

 

I don't know how widely he advertises in the local area but at Wallingford I got the impression yesterday - and even more strongly last year - that some of the visitors were not the sort of people you normally get at model railway exhibitions and and had simply come along to see some model trains (and in the case of one youngster yesterday clearly developing an interest although her dad did seem to be encouraging it).  If one of his shows tempts just one person into our hobby who wouldn't otherwise attend a show then he is doing the hobby a service in my view.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally agree with what you are saying Mike, encouraging the next generation is very important in any hobby if we want to see it continue. As listed above my minor grumbles are more aimed at the preparation of the show (I only have one show to go on as a guide, so can only comment on that one).

Edited by Robatron86
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have known Dakota for a number of years and he is very enthuiastic about model railways; whether he is selling or organising an exhibition. And I have to say that he does put shows on where he often stands to lose rather than gain. I organise just one show a year and I know the amount of work I have to do for that. For this young lad to do eight, does deserve some praise in my 'book'. You'll also find that the same exhibitors and often, same traders will all support his shows. Why do we do it?....... Its to help him, we know he may fall down on some of the organisation of the event and he does try to improve this for the next time. His shows do bring in the general public and these are places where you do not often see a model railway club 'taking a gamble'. After all, these events are for the public who will almost undoubtably outnumber the railway modellers ten to one. Also, as has been written here, if it brings people into the hobby then its doing some good. My friend Neil and I did enjoy 'playing trains' at Oxted and we saw so many happy smiling faces from the public that we felt the journey was worth it.

 

Just as an aside, at his event last year in Frinton (Essex) of all places we all thought it was going to 'bomb'....... how wrong we all were...... I did say then that if the event made a profit, then I would exhibit this year for no expenses....... I'm more than pleased to say that I will be there this year and will not be taking any money off him.............. So, give the lad a chance and help............ All his 'regulars' know what its like and we are here to help. After all we are all model railway enthuiasts.................. having fun is what its all about........... Also I wonder, if some of the bigger events made a loss how many of them would be back for the next year??

Edited by straxman
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have an axe to grind, but I do have one or two points regarding the Oxted show.

 

Power supplies in the hall were mostly on the other side of the hall to the layouts, and this was taken up with a sizeable trade stall (Dakota's). My requests for power were met with "run an extension from the kitchen service hatch and then in front of a toilet door". Not ideal.

 

Asking everyone at the show (vistor, exhibitor, trader) if the were in or out in the EU referendum, and then cheering "Brexit!" whenever someone said out! Not really the place for a political poll gathering exercise.

Sounds like duct tape would have fixed those issues. ;)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick comment from me.

 

Are we seeing the start of lots of little one day shows? Probably taking customers away from Club events and returning nothing to the hobby.

 

I noticed that there is a one day show today in Oxted Surrey called 'Oxted Presents'

 

I've been unable to discover who is running this. The title has the 'sound' of being the local authority.

 

However, looking further on, there is a Wallingford Presents. Again, no info on who is running this, only a mobile phone number.

 

In my opinion, the entry fee is high for the low number of layouts on show and the very low number of traders.

 

I wonder who is running these.

 

Dave

 

As a long standing member (30+ years) of a model railway club. I don't see why it should be considered the 'preserve' of model railway clubs to be the only group that are able to organise a model railway exhibition. And why it seems that this enthuiastic young lad comes in for all this unwarranted trolling. Anybody willing to put up their own money to make what is in reality a 'small return on investment' proves that its done for his love of model railways. If you don't like small shows........... don't bother going to them, but don't just be a troll either. My own club organises one large show in our area and several of our members organise smaller events throughout the year. We have found that the smaller events act as a 'feeder' to the bigger event. So they don't take anything away from our prospective, in fact we have noticed an increase in numbers.

 

Two day shows by Clubs are getting to be a thing of the past. One day shows are more likely to be profitable for Clubs.

 

As for VAT and Tax paid................ To be VAT registered his turnover would have to be above £83,000......... from eight small shows? Yeh right!! As for his tax paid on profit (sole trader) this is between him, his accountant and Customs and Excise. As for event insurance, I know for a fact that this is provided through Magnet.

 

This young enthuiastic lad is doing his bit for this hobby.............. What do you do?? After reading your posts and implied accusations I feel you let the hobby down.

Edited by straxman
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he seems to be doing a good thing, its a lot of work putting on exhibitions and doing lots on your own must be exhausting, although I suppose you get into the swing of it after a while.

 

I am a bit confused about the English Riviera MRC, unless that is where he lives and he is the club

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he seems to be doing a good thing, its a lot of work putting on exhibitions and doing lots on your own must be exhausting, although I suppose you get into the swing of it after a while.

 

I am a bit confused about the English Riviera MRC, unless that is where he lives and he is the club

 

I know that he does put a lot of hard work in to organising these events and they do take their toll. The reason he uses names like English Riviera MRC is because the umwarranted trolling on sites like this from people who should know better that does upset him as he does not know why they do it. Jealousy? vindictiveness? trying to be 'clever'? or just plain stupidity?

 

Most model railway events are either organised by model railway clubs or traders, and the 'market' appears to be saturated, get used to it. Take part rather than just trolling people who do put a lot of effort into taking this hobby into the 'public arena' and in the process try to make a few quid............. Trust me theres not a lot of money to be made on a small event of about 10 - 12 layouts and a couple of traders. Look at the Brighton show........... Big event...... but not enough numbers through the doors to make it viable. This young man fronts events without knowing if they will be viable or not.......... If he gives up and the 'big boys' give up.......... where are you going to go??? And this in turn will cause the manufacturers to look at what they do and they may even then pull out of the game............... Get behind people like this young lad and support him and others like him, you may just keep the hobby and industry alive for the future generations..........

Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason he uses names like English Riviera MRC is because the umwarranted trolling on sites like this from people who should know better that does upset him as he does not know why they do it.

 

But that doesn't make sense to me.  "Trolling" isn't really the right word here because it's not posting to intentially wind someone up and cause arguments (which is the usual need of trolls) but to try and understand why someone invents model clubs to host his shows.  There are a number of toyfairs promoted by "xxx toyfairs presents the zzz swapmeet" so why can't he use a company name as the promoter instead of making up clubs?

 

I also note with more than a little interest that you are friends with an RMWeb member called "DakRail" who has posted in the past about organising a number of little shows.

Edited by cromptonnut
Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that he does put a lot of hard work in to organising these events and they do take their toll. The reason he uses names like English Riviera MRC is because the umwarranted trolling on sites like this from people who should know better that does upset him as he does not know why they do it. Jealousy? vindictiveness? trying to be 'clever'? or just plain stupidity?

 

Most model railway events are either organised by model railway clubs or traders, and the 'market' appears to be saturated, get used to it. Take part rather than just trolling people who do put a lot of effort into taking this hobby into the 'public arena' and in the process try to make a few quid............. Trust me theres not a lot of money to be made on a small event of about 10 - 12 layouts and a couple of traders. Look at the Brighton show........... Big event...... but not enough numbers through the doors to make it viable. This young man fronts events without knowing if they will be viable or not.......... If he gives up and the 'big boys' give up.......... where are you going to go??? And this in turn will cause the manufacturers to look at what they do and they may even then pull out of the game............... Get behind people like this young lad and support him and others like him, you may just keep the hobby and industry alive for the future generations..........

 

Hopefully you can understand why a club in the area may query why someone passes themselves off as being a club without actually being one (I've had several off-forum communications), or complying with any legislation which governs a society. In the absence of information from the horse's mouth rather than acolytes who point the finger at people who aren't actually trolling people will naturally fill in gaps for themselves.

 

Telling readers to 'get used to it' isn't likely to get people onside.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, perhaps trolliing is bit strong and if it offends you then I apologise. The initial comment states that these events are organised and seem to be taking customers away from Club events and putting nothing back. If thats what the starter of this thread thinks, perhaps they should look at the club events to see why they are losing support. My own clubs' events have been seeing a decline in 'customers' for years. The main reason was that the City car park where our customers parked used to be free on Saturdays & Sundays....... The local authority started making this a pay & display seven days a week. Then after a couple of years it became a card only payment. People who came to our city once a year decided not to return. We have moved to a new venue with free parking and guess what....... an increase in numbers.

 

So before asking why, look at what your club is doing. Do you actually appeal to the public or modellers. In my experiance and again my own club is being used here as an example, we have over 100 members and I doubt whether more than 10 maybe 15 % of  our members go to another model railway exhibtion other than our own main event. Again, using the model railway press is good but this only seems to reach railway modellers. To get numbers through the doors, use your local press and radio I do and I do leaflet drops around the local area starting a month before the event. Our local Radio do a 'Whats on slot' and I am interviewed a couple of days before the event. So if you want people through the doors......... go out of your way to meet the people, to get the people.

 

As with local clubs two day events. It seems twice the cost for hardly any return on the second day. I have been to quite a few two day events where on the second day there were more exhibitors and traders than public.

 

So we can all learn off each other on how to increase revenue............. if you can't beat them join them...... just don't blame others if you are losing support for your events, see why its losing support and react accordingly.

 

I cannot see why some people on this forum think that this young lad is to blame for the lack of support for any event. Look at what you are doing are you still doing the same thing that you have done for years? Times have moved on and I suggest that you do and get your younger members to get involved to see what they want at an event............ Large events for most clubs cost more and have little return......... smaller more frequent events are where the 'monies' at these days............ Think about it............ look at your selves first

Link to post
Share on other sites

straxman

 

It is perfectly reasonable to want to know where the monies are going if a profit is made (in one post you say the shows don't make any money and in another you say smaller more frequent shows are the "monies" at). Why? Because it invariably relies on volunteers donating their time and efforts to build and bring a layout along. For example, I know that if I go to a Warners show that any profit is going to Warners (or their local MRC partners) - I can then make the choice as to whether I can support that or not.

 

You make many valid points about shows that fail to keep up with the times or advertise sufficiently - there is nearly always room to improve!

 

Where I disagree is some of the solutions you suggest - the answer to a crowded calendar is not more shows. Small shows are easier and less risky to organise but you are unlikely to get some excellent larger layouts at such shows for space, financial and sheer time in putting up / taking down reasons.

 

There is of course a simple solution which is does the organiser not approach some local clubs to work in partnership with them?

 

Cheers, Mike

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at this from an layout owners point of view - I'm happy to give up a weekend to support a club or society, but to ask the same for someone who's only interest is to make a profit for themselves is a different matter.

 

Commercial shows run by magazines don't pretend they are anything other than what they are. If you chose to go then you know what the state of play is and can decide accordingly. I know people who would never do a magazine run show for just that reason, and that's perfectly reasonable.

 

Calling yourself "English Riviera MRC" suspicious to me. As cromptonut says, swapmeets happily advertise as being organised by a company.

 

It depends on whether you think the show organisers are doing layout owners a favour by allowing them to show thier models, or if the layout owners are doing the show a favour by giving up a weekend for no income (I know you get expenses but these are just that - expenses - and you never claw back all the money).

Edited by Phil Parker
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I don't know if it has been changed but I have just looked at the ad for 'The First English Riviera Model Railway Exhibition' and I am unable to find anywhere n the ad (on the UK Model shop Directory) any mention of any sort of model railway club. So maybe as a result of what has been said on here the ad has been changed?

 

There was definitely no sort of mention of any organising club for the Wallingford exhibition last Sunday so my understanding, even without reference to this thread, was that the exhibition was not organised by a club (and neither was last year's although some of the internet presentation for that was different from that of this year).

 

I agree absolutely with Andy that it would be very helpful if the organiser of these shows could respond for himself on this thread instead of being, seemingly, represented by a proxy as it might give him an opportunity to lay to rest the various things which are being levelled at him.  I don't know about the situation elsewhere but within reasonable driving distance of here (I listed the ones I usually attend in an earlier post) I simply cannot work out how the Wallingford exhibition could be competing for visitors with any of them - it occurred during a gap in the (reasonably) local cycle of regular shows although shortly after another which took place at Didcot recently.  For the slightly more informed visitor who is likely to attend for a  reason such as seeing a particular layout or aiming for a particular trader this exhibition hardly poses any sort of competition in my view, certainly not in or near Wallingford.

 

Equally for the casual local visitor - depending on local advertising (which I know nothing of as far as Wallingford was concerned) I again see little competition with established club exhibitions or open days because in all likelihood many such folk are hardly likely to drive even a dozen miles for an exhibition.  It would for example be interesting to know if Pendon, almost on Wallingford's doorstep, suffered a drop in visitors last Sunday as a result of 'local competition'.  If someone wishes to organise a model railway exhibition or a Dinky Toy exhibition or whatever I tend to assume they will do so and the venue will make sure they have relevant insurance cover (if only to protect their own interest) and will also make sure they get paid - probably with some sort of non-refunadable deposit or whatever.

 

Payment of expenses to exhibitors would, equally I'm sure, be something that they agree in advance with the organiser but that really is a private arrangement between those parties.  As with any other exhibition it is clear to me that someone will make a profit or loss on the event - that is their risk and maybe the winners will subsidise the losers and leave over some money for charity.  Being of more advanced years, and with the sort of cynicism which comes from that, I doubt if very people or organisations arrange such things purely from the kindness of their hearts.

 

So apart from the organiser/promoter (or whatever you care to call him) of these events not having come forward to explain things for himself where are we?  Well I see we have been here before in this thread -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108004-weybridge-model-railway-exhibition-saturday-5th-march-2016/

 

And I must admit - being again of a cynical frame of mind - that I find it absolutely hilarious that this person should be summoned before RMweb to present his accounts.  If there is no organising club mentioned then obviously a club hasn't organised the show and it's a commercial matter, back to risk, losses and profits and HMRC.  'A charitable donation' is exactly that - a donation.  Equally as far as I can find out attendance at the exhibitions he organises is not compulsory - we are not frog marched to the door and forced to hand over our filthy lucre, so what the heck have the finances got to do with us - provided the exhibition is properly insured and safely run?    

 

However if he goes round representing himself or any of his exhibitions as being organised by a club then he's a silly lad and deserves to have his trousers dusted.  Come on Dakrail - tell all if only to shut up the wild stories, rumours, prophets of doom, and so on  (my 'review' of your Wallingford exhibition is further up this thread).

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Equally for the casual local visitor - depending on local advertising (which I know nothing of as far as Wallingford was concerned) I again see little competition with established club exhibitions or open days because in all likelihood many such folk are hardly likely to drive even a dozen miles for an exhibition.  It would for example be interesting to know if Pendon, almost on Wallingford's doorstep, suffered a drop in visitors last Sunday as a result of 'local competition'.  If someone wishes to organise a model railway exhibition or a Dinky Toy exhibition or whatever I tend to assume they will do so and the venue will make sure they have relevant insurance cover (if only to protect their own interest) and will also make sure they get paid - probably with some sort of non-refunadable deposit or whatever.

 

I have contacts at Pendon and I have it on good authority that they did not suffer any lack of visitors last Sunday and had more than the usual numbers of enthusiasts through the door (Madder Valley was running). They also had leaflets for the Wallingford show on their counter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is currently a show on UK Model Shops for Sunday 3rd July.

 

It has the usual mobile number used by Dekota and the show is advertised as being organised by the Mid Kent Model Railway Group.

 

If that is not an attempt to mislead, I don't know what is.

 

The event by the English Reviera Model Railway Club can still be found on Google.

 

I just think that this organiser should come clean and not try to pass themselves off as Groups or Club's.

 

I personally will not support shows that pass themselves off as such and contribute nothing to the model railway hobby.

 

It's hard enough for Club's to make ends meet.

 

Dave

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...