************* Presents?

[01.gellert]

There is no rule or regulation that I am aware of that prevents a private individual putting on a model railway exhibition as a means of earning themselves some money.

 

It is no more or less of an acceptable way to earn a living as many others.

 

What I do think is that if an exhibition is being arranged on this basis, then the organisers should be honest and up front about it. They shouldn't pretend that they are representing some model railway club that may not exist.

 

Many modellers are very happy to give up a large chunk of their time to help fund a model railway club or a preservation society. I have said it before on other threads but in my view, the exhibition diary is now about as full as it needs to be. There are not enough layouts and traders to fill more exhibition halls and keep things at a reasonable quality level.

 

My beef about shows being run by individuals or, for that matter businesses, is that modellers are expected to become, in effect, unpaid employees of that person/organisation for the weekend plus preparation and travelling time. We basically give up our time to help an individual or a business to line their pockets.

 

I don't mind doing it to help a non profit organisation like a club or a society but I feel more and more uncomfortable about doing it to boost the profits/income of an individual or a business.

 

As a visitor I will only ever attend a certain number of shows each year and a good many people I know are the same, so adding new shows to the diary means that we would choose between going to the old one or the new one but not both. So I am not sure that each new show that appears increases or improves the hobby. I reckon it just dilutes it and takes money away from the true "club" shows.

 

I do take a balanced view on such things and have reconciled that for things like the Warners shows, at least they are run in conjunction with various model railway clubs who do benefit but I am not their biggest fan.

 

Every week I get several clothes collection bags delivered, each one purporting to represent a charity. Each and every one is a business pretending to be a charity when you read the small print, donating a fraction of what they earn. I do hope that same sort of thing isn't coming into the world of model railways.

I totally agree with your point however as I have said before, why should someone have to travel to see a model railway show hours away? I think more shows (although not too many on a weekend in an area) would help and since I have organised this, I have realised a lot of my friends once owned a layout and these are the things that would get them back into the hobby.

[woodenhead]

At the beginning of this thread I was questioning why some were concerned about these exhibitions and the person running them.

 

Having read the most recent set of posts and perhaps the unedited quote from Andy I am now starting to understand.

 

Private individuals should be able to and can run exhibitions for personal profit, but there should be no need for game playing.

Edited July 3, 2016 by woodenhead

[The Stationmaster]

You're just confusing me now.

 

You and me both - I think I'll run away to sea.

[russianlayout]

The Club I am part of  got approached by a pretend model railway club to exhibit at their show, Anyone find any club records on here of the Modelfest Club in Knockholt. They run a show at a garden centre.  We politely refused as my personal  layouts were at Sevenoaks in July and also at our show in Bexley in Dec and didn't think it would help them or us having layouts shown so close to other exhibitions and locations.  

 

Sevenoaks Show was a commercial show and well documented as being,   I know as I  ran it,  the Bexley show is to raise money for a our new club and running costs which I am a part of. I know as I helping run it.   I would have thought that after the Dibden saga no one would again try and run an exhibition commercially using a fake club name as a front.  

 

Double annoyed as they obviously not playing fair, ie we as a commercial show in Sevenoaks have another show in the same vicinity pretending not to be commercial, and  this pretend  club have moved their exhibition date to the same date as the Bexley show and so the draw of people we might have got from Orpington/ Dartford Bromley will poss now go to that show.   They were originally doing it a few weeks before.  

 

One thing Dibden never did was start up a show to compete with another show in the area and at the same time.  

 

My yearly Sevenoaks show - always held on the same weekend in July when no other shows in the very wide area and run as commercial shows with commercial staffing and money goes to my theatre as part of its profits

 

Our clubs Bexley Show   - chosen as nothing else that weekend in area apart from one in Manchester and all money goes to the model railway club on ticket sales and run by volunteers apart from the catering, which remains commercial.   We actually saw the original weekend the Knockholt venue were doing, so not to compete with them, did not run our show on that date. 

 

Can I openly ask the organiser of this show, is it commercial, as there is no Modelfest club, and you are as it states event organisers.  When I run a commercial model railway show, I only repeat it if it made a profit the year before, I also have money pre pigioned holed for all expenses, before the show begins,  however I have spoken to a exhibitor at your last years show, who is at our Bexley show who states they won't do your show again they were not given the agreed expenses as you stated you did not make enough to cover the agreed amount.  They had expenes at our show of £60, so would have been about the same for your show as same distance travelled and it was  a major showstopping layout. If you made such a loss on the show, how can you say that money raised will go to a named charity, if the same thing happens again. How much went to the charity last year,which you are supporting this year again surely expenses agreed to exhibitors should be taken off first.  If you didnt have enough money to pay the expenses, that means the charity would have got no money last year?  or did you instead give the expenses money to the charity

 

If you are commercial, what percentage of profits go to the charity, or is it done on say 50p of every ticket sold, or maybe the way we did it two years ago and separate our commercial income to charity income and have a raffle where all that money went to the charity minus £18 for the ticket printing.  

 

This is what you sent us, again can you explain if last year was a success, why did you not have the funds to pay expenses at the agreed rate to a exhibitor, how many exhibitors got their full expenses and how many wish to return this year? 

 

email reads:

 

I saw details of your new club on Facebook and wondered if you'd like to promote your new venture and bring a layout to our show?

Last December we staged the first Garden of England Model Fest with an excellent range of excellent layouts and other models drawn together from clubs and individuals from Kent and SE London. We are going to be staging a further show this November and l have the pleasure of making a formal invitation to the club to bring a layout to the show.

The event being held on 19^th & 20^th November 2016. Once again supporting the work of Demelza Hospice Care for Children. Please see attached for full details.

We want to build on what we achieved last year to make the event bigger and better. We’d love have you with us.

The venue is again the purpose built display area at Coolings Garden Centre (http://www.coolings.co.uk/) at Knockholt Kent (just of Jct 4 M25) Attached is a full information.

 

Reason I want to know is as mentioned on this tread, I have had stick from people on here in the past as they don't like the fact I run a exhibition for profit,  that is fine and in return I have always admitted it and get exhibitors returning to my shows as we hopefully have a well run event for them to be part of.  We made a profit at one show in New Cross two years ago  and last year although making a profit, it was down on what we wanted, so we stopped doing that show and venue.   Our Sevenoaks shows make profits.    The Bexley Show  hopefully will make a profit for the club. , The expenses are covered by the trade stand hire, which is prepaid, so I know the club has the money to pay the exhibitors.  The club hasn't the money yet to pay the venue hire and flyers, banners etc, so I have covered that for them, well my company has.   Simple option is to just put the show on myself and take the profits.   Instead I have agreed to risk the hire fee which the club must pay back and the cost of flyers etc.   To limit the risk and get a partial return, the theatre runs the catering and the profits go to the theatre.    The stewards, front of house staff will be volunteers from the club, catering staff are salaried.   Once the club takes the cost of the hire fee in ticket sales, they keep all the money.  If they dont make the full hire fee, they dont have to pay the extra to cover it as hopefully the catering side will.  £610 of trade space booked and £420 expenses for exhibitors, so already they are up and paid off part of the venue hire debt. (the flyer and banner printing part of it anyway).  

If Erith MRC still used a venue which is 1.4 miles from our venue in Welling, I would not put a show in Welling as it isn't fair, even commercially and defo not via our MRC. Same reason I would not put a show on in Welling the same weekend as their show in Dartford, as I would be an idiot to compete with them and basically, an unwritten agreement you dont.  At last years New Cross Show I even had talks with the nearest show which was 34 miles away and not even in London, and we agreed people could easy get to both if they wanted, hardly likely unless a real die hard.   Erith MRC have moved out of London now for their shows, we always invite them to exhibit, they always don't have the members to do it, but we ask them out of courtesy. As  now no show in this area and actually competing with myself with any show I do in the local boroughs again,   When we started New Cross, we first checked that no shows were in the area and got the local MRC on board (Southwark) as they could not afford to finance their own show. 

If you were a MRC I would maybe say, OK you made a loss, many MRC do when they put on shows. the none payment of full expenses can sort of  be justified, via bad account/show  management.  However, you are not, you are like me, on some of my shows, doing it for profit and so then play fair and admit you didn't achieve what you wanted at last years show and couldn't cover agreed expenses.  As layouts and traders now have two shows to consider, both with the same middle catchment areas, I know our club may lose some traders to your show and also some layouts we might want, may be committed to your show.  Traders make own decision based on risk,  but exhibitors, please be clean with them over last years show.  

How can you afford the costs of running this years show and not have made provision to at least paying money owed to exhibitors last year first and starting with a clean sheet. Or is that just a company write off and start again.

 

 

 

[jonhall]

Last years event was organised by Richard Rundle, a quick google suggests he has connections with the Bognor Regis MRC, and  the 7mm Narrow Gauge Association (South Downs Group).

 

Personally it's entertained me that you suddenly understand the concerns expressed by others, but only when its your own show's viability that comes under threat.

 

Jon

[bbishop]

Hang on a minute.  Harry is totally open and honest about the objectives of any exhibition that he runs.  He also understands risk and return, and communicates with his exhibitors and punters.  You can note the support he is giving to Gellert, with his Hersham exhibition.

 

Regarding Coolings, we received an invite to the December 2015 exhibition, filled in the paperwork with costs for two cars, and heard no more.  Obviously our costs were too high, but it's quite a squeeze to get a 34' layout even into two cars, and an e-mail declining our invite should be an automatic courtesy; if nothing else, frees the operators to accept another invite.  We won't consider Coolings again.

 

Bill

[russianlayout]

That's right, as it does undermine a show I am running on the same day.  I pulled a major showstopper layout at Bexley as it is pre booked I found out for Erith Model rail show in Jan, and played by some sort of understanding over not competing with other shows and not putting same layouts out there as other shows locally. Also asked another exhibitor to  change the  layout as he wanted to bring same to both our show and Erith.  Knockholt had a date and they  decided to change it to a date which will effect both shows for people around the middle catchment area, reason I know as many from that area came to our Sevenoaks show.  The connections you mention are not mentioned on the website for the event just they are event organisers.  I am a assoc member of  Southwark MRC , Selkent MRC and the OO gauge Association, so what!  just means we like model railways.   I would be surprised if any show organsiser anywhere in the UK does not have a connection to model railways in some form.   I made a point of not doing  this show on the date they had, however they had no problem trying to directly compete with us bu putting it on on the date we had our show.    

 

I already understand the concerns expressed by others, as have had numerous people state it is not right commercial shows operate, hence why when I do commercial shows, I do them so they dont compete with club shows or hinder anyone going to another show.   However this one is  a club show I am running and if it were me, doing one of my commercial shows, i wouldn't dare do it so close to another show with the same catchment area. Also when I run my commercial shows, I admit they are commercial from the off and say it is run by The London Theatre,ltd, some then say they dont do commercial shows, most exhibitors don't care,  Many show attendees care as we see from this tread so at what stage would i have been told the Knockholt show was commercial, when they invited me it doesn't mention it on their website,  are they doing it for fun or he works for a charity, so all the funds go there.  

 

I have 6 more trade spaces to fill, bring it up to 18 traders, meaning each trader will cover the cost of a layout, so can go up to 20 layouts and make more income for the club.   Now I am competing with a two day local show, which on paper sounds better option, so am going to have traders go there instead, they have 15 already according to there event listing.   If they are sending me requests to exhibit at their show to improve on their achievements last year, means some exhibitors /traders will take that at face value,  However they could not cover the £60 for a major showstopper layout last year, so with my commercial hat on, I will have to now compete for traders, exhibitors and attendees to my show, so that the MRC gets a profit and yes as they decided to knowingly organise a show in competition with another with same part catchment area, then yes that is a threat,   No one has the right to stop a show but I thought everyone here doing shows, be it clubs/ charities or commercial followed some sort of etiquette,  

 

Also on this thread, I have denounced Dekota for his previous actions, which he has, now  looks like changed and taken away the club status, and that was someone who is a client of mine ie a trader who gives me money to trade at my shows.  So please don't say that I am only concerned solely as it has an impact on my club show, if someone  isn't playing fairly, I will say it. Dekota's actions did not bode well for other commercial shows, so stated what is was doing was wrong, that would have had commercial implications on me if he stopped hiring trade space or I felt I could not accept the hire anymore.   Why did the Knockholt event send me something stating one thing, ie improve on their achievements, and wanting my layouts as part of it, no mention it is commercial and no mention what money goes to charity, although they state they supported the charity last year.   when I know they couldn't pay costs last year to one exhibitor I know. so how could they have money to give to a charity.

 

I don't even have a gripe that they do a show , within 2 miles of our Sevenoaks show as it is 6 months apart, in fact same people prob go to both, I do have a gripe if a show changes its date to hinder our numbers in traders and attendees, same gripe if say Southwark MRC decided to put a show on in Blackheath, the same day as us as will be taking from same catchment area.      

Edited August 26, 2016 by russianlayout

[russianlayout]

The Bish above also runs a show in SE London and he checks with local clubs and with us in the past so that the show he runs does not impact on others,  That is how it should be.  I won't put a show on the same time as the one he runs in Lee.   Mostly because in will end in a fight on who gets Colin Snowdens excellent layouts. 

[Guest]

There's something rather unsavoury about this thread. "If your face fits" and all that... Just my humble opinion.

 

[dasatcopthorne]

Is there possibly some irony creeping in here?

 

Mind you, I disagree with the Commercial shows as much as I do the so-called club ones.

 

Turned down the Garden Centre show last year for more than one reason.

 

Why not ask the organiser of the clashing show, if he has considered the effect?

 

Dave.

[01.gellert]

Hi all,

 

Having a look around, and have seen that the organisers have moved this exhibition with the fake club name and top of my head its now 10th and 11th December.

 

Gellert

Edited August 30, 2016 by 01.gellert

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi all,

 

Having a look around, and have seen that the organisers have moved this exhibition with the fake name and top of my head its now 10th and 11th December.

 

Gellert

 

Fake Name.

 

That rings a bell!!!

 

How many have you used?

 

 

Dave

Edited August 30, 2016 by dasatcopthorne

[01.gellert]

Fake Name.

 

That rings a bell!!!

 

How many have you used?

 

 

Dave

Who, me?

 

I haven't used a fake name, and this is my first exhibition so...

 

I believe that people will realise if you use a fake club name as this forum later proved and I thought that then less people would come to the exhibition and would it may be good short term but won't be long term as exhibitors won't want to come, traders either and then without those two things it's impossible to organise an exhibition.

 

Gellert

[Geoff Endacott]

Fake name? Isn't that a town in Norfolk?

 

Geoff Endacott

[PenrithBeacon]

My experience of 'commercial ' as apposed to club or society shows is that they tend to have poor trade support (Dakota Dibbens stand is the classic example it's awful) and layouts of variable standard; quite often very variable standard.

 

As a result I just don't go. If everybody on RMweb did the same then there's a good chance these dreadfully exploitative shows would just disappear.

[dasatcopthorne]

Who, me?

 

I haven't used a fake name, and this is my first exhibition so...

 

I believe that people will realise if you use a fake club name as this forum later proved and I thought that then less people would come to the exhibition and would it may be good short term but won't be long term as exhibitors won't want to come, traders either and then without those two things it's impossible to organise an exhibition.

 

Gellert

 

My apologies to you.

 

Was it Dekota Dibben that used the fake names?

 

Dave

[cromptonnut]

Fake name? Isn't that a town in Norfolk?

 

Geoff Endacott

 

It's Norfolk and Good.

[nickwood]

It's Norfolk and Good.

Suffolk and what.

[bbishop]

So I have a price -v- distance formula. I won't travel more than about 10 miles for a show that charges less than £5. So that knocks out all Dakota's shows and Gellert's as well. What would piss me off is to travel a distance to a show charging (say) £8, only to discover that it's only worth £4.

 

But surely it is a good thing for the hobby if Dakota and Gellert attract punters into the hobby. You will know that I occasionally present a small show. Firstly I'm very careful to avoid clashing with other local shows and secondly my publicity clearly shows (ouch) what I'm trying to achieve. It is fairly immaterial if my publicity presents St Margaret's Church or Lee Model Railway Club (sole member B Bishop), but I'm not going to charge an extortionate entrance nor clash with a local exhibition; and so much the better if people take away flyers to an Erith or Beckenham exhibition or one of Harry's shows.

 

It's them that overcharge or clash that are causing the heat in this thread.

 

Bill

[298]

Why should clashing be a problem...? Using the theory behind your calculation above, you could visit both shows but save time and travelling distance over if they were on separate days, and be guaranteed there won't be any duplication.

 

Reading this thread makes me somewhat glad that I don't live in the catchment area, but am intrigued by comments made regarding the organisers stand, would it be possible for someone to post a photo for reference purposes...?

[dasatcopthorne]

So I have a price -v- distance formula. I won't travel more than about 10 miles for a show that charges less than £5. So that knocks out all Dakota's shows and Gellert's as well. What would piss me off is to travel a distance to a show charging (say) £8, only to discover that it's only worth £4.But surely it is a good thing for the hobby if Dakota and Gellert attract punters into the hobby. You will know that I occasionally present a small show. Firstly I'm very careful to avoid clashing with other local shows and secondly my publicity clearly shows (ouch) what I'm trying to achieve. It is fairly immaterial if my publicity presents St Margaret's Church or Lee Model Railway Club (sole member B Bishop), but I'm not going to charge an extortionate entrance nor clash with a local exhibition; and so much the better if people take away flyers to an Erith or Beckenham exhibition or one of Harry's shows.It's them that overcharge or clash that are causing the heat in this thread.Bill

Oh dear Bill.

 

I guess your show admission is £5 or less and I think it is less than 10 miles away from me. Are you with me.

 

I won't be coming when you have one.

 

Now. Lee Model Railway Club. How can one person be a Club. Surely then, this is another false name.!!!!! :-)))

 

Dave

Edited September 1, 2016 by dasatcopthorne

[t-b-g]

I cannot be alone in finding some of this very distasteful.

 

My exhibiting days are probably coming to an end as the hobby takes me in directions other than building exhibition layouts.

 

But if I had accepted an invitation to a show that purported to be a club show but turned out to be a single individual putting a show on to line their own pockets, I would have been most unhappy at giving up several days of my time at no financial cost to the organiser in order to line their pockets. I don't mind doing it to help a genuine club or society but not what is basically a fake one, set up to fool people into thinking that the show is put on by a club.

 

Even these shows which are "supporting" various good causes would require some scrutiny before I would get involved. Does that mean that if it makes £1000 profit, £50 goes to the good cause and the rest stays with the organiser?

 

It is a side of things I hoped I would never see in this hobby but it looks to me as if it is here and happening now.

[298]

I cannot be alone in finding some of this very distasteful.

Agreed.

 

But if I had accepted an invitation to a show that purported to be a club show but turned out to be a single individual putting a show on to line their own pockets, I would have been most unhappy at giving up several days of my time at no financial cost to the organiser in order to line their pockets. I don't mind doing it to help a genuine club or society but not what is basically a fake one, set up to fool people into thinking that the show is put on by a club.

 

 

But don't you have (*wink wink) as hinted further up the thread separate "expenses" rates for commercial shows...? Me neither, if anything I've found that commercial shows are often stingier with things such as car parking tickets and request receipts for expenses, instead of a rough mileage calculation. Fortunately I don't have a lot of time to indulge myself in attending shows as either an exhibitor or a punter, so can be a bit choosy as to the ones I attend.

[t-b-g]

What it seems to come down to is that there are basically two main types of shows. There is the genuine club show, where a club puts on a show to help boost its income to perhaps pay for clubrooms and to allow annual subs to be kept at a nice low level.

 

I have no problem at all giving up several days worth of my time (and being self employed, that usually means time that I could be earning money, even at a weekend) for that sort of show.

 

Everything else, which has been put on to make money for either a commercial/corporate body or an individual, I have very mixed feelings about. In a way, we as exhibitors are being asked to become unpaid employees to put money in the pockets of somebody else.

 

If these shows had to pay exhibitors even a minimum wage, I am sure that none of them would be viable. I used to get a bit of a buzz out of having my work seen (and hopefully admired!) at shows. It was a bit of an honour to be invited as it meant that my layout was good enough for somebody to invite. But after 30 years, I have very much gone into "been there, done that" mode so perhaps I am slightly cynical about such things. When I see the quality of exhibits at some shows, it just makes me think that perhaps we were invited because we came cheap. There are too many shows and not enough good quality layouts and traders to fill them all.

 

I am now very selective as to which shows I go to as either a visitor or an exhibitor. A few show managers are friends and I enjoy supporting them. Others are the more specialist shows which are very good socially.

 

But if one of these "Presented by another made up club" shows appears around our way, please count me out.

[bbishop]

Oh dear Bill.

 

I guess your show admission is £5 or less and I think it is less than 10 miles away from me. Are you with me.

 

I won't be coming when you have one.

 

Now. Lee Model Railway Club. How can one person be a Club. Surely then, this is another false name.!!!!! :-)))

 

Dave

Dave, I was being rhetorical. Maybe too rhetorical? It is presented as St Margaret's Church, Lee, which is in South East London and I recognise that is far too far for you to travel.

 

And actually, we don't charge for admission. Happy to receive a donation and we do charge for our excellent refreshments. And we concentrate our publicity within five miles. And the purposes of the exhibition are for church outreach and for people to enjoy themselves.

 

The reason that Harry and I are involved in this thread is that the person putting on an exhibition should make the exhibition's business plan clear and transparent. I hope that I do; Harry does; Gellert seems to; Dakota does to an extent. It's the one that appears to be put on by a club, but is actually a commercial enterprise that concern me.

 

There would appear to be an argument that shows can only be presented by established clubs. Not true, and all power to Harry's and Gellert's elbows.

 

Bill