************* Presents?

[Chris M]

The law states that a sole trader or partnership must state their name and address on any premises they use and on all business communications. I couldn't be certain that a poster advertising an event is a business communication but I suspect it may well be. I don't live anywhere near the places mentioned but if anyone local has any concern they should contact their local authority trading standards department.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Chris M

[The Stationmaster]

*

 

Two questions would seem to be relevant.

 

[1]   Is it ethical to pose as an entire town?

 

[2]   Does it contravene the Trade Descriptions Act to advertise as someone (or a body, or a town) that one is not?

 

 

 

CP

 

I suppose it also depends on how you read 'Maldon' (etc) and what you understand it to mean?  Does it mean a Mr Maldon, or does it mean a company called Maldon, or does it (however unlikely it might sound) mean a local council?  As most councils I have ever come across are keen to show they're so much better than the level of local govt above or below them (or both) I think it a fair bet that it doesn't mean a local authority because it doesn't use the full title of one (which they certainly do use round here as they're all keen to prove just how much better than they are than the one above or below them).

 

In reality I expect it might be down to a bit of naivety but also there could well be someone from Maldon who has a layout in the show so then it would be grammatically correct.  As it happens several businesses use my name and - as far as I have been able to trace - have absolutely no connection whatsoever with any part of my family and never have had such a connection so I could equally wonder if they are behaving ethically in using my name (and a suitable fee no doubt).  But to be honest it's a waste time chasing them (especially as one happens to be an estate agent).  I see that as little different from somebody using a town name and in fact probably rather more intrusive but I bet I wouldn't win a case against them in court (and neither would Maldon etc I suspect).

 

I see the organiser gives a contact number so that allows one to enquire who the organiser is if you happen to be that interested or concerned.  the only thing I do wonder about is if there is stiil a requirement to put the name and address of the publisher on posters and handbills etc (apart from political ones where that does still apply).

[pete_mcfarlane]

I think it a fair bet that it doesn't mean a local authority because it doesn't use the full title of one (which they certainly do use round here as they're all keen to prove just how much better than they are than the one above or below them).

If it was from a council, at least two thirds of the advert would be taken up with their logo, mission statement, and an unnecessarily detailed explanation of their equal opportunity policy (listing all the illegal things they don't do). 

[Talltim]

Gotta have a Modern Slavery Statement on there

Does exhibiting a layout count as Modern Slavery?

Edited February 27, 2017 by Talltim

[5050]

Dear me!  8 pages - that's 15 minutes of my life I won't get back.  After reading all this I'm glad I don't live south of London with all these exhibition related shenanigans going on.  Nowt like this 'appens oop Norf.

 

I'm out - but I'll see you at the commercially connected Ally Pally show in 2 months!

[pete_mcfarlane]

Gotta have a Modern Slavery Statement on there

Does exhibiting a layout count as Modern Slavery?

 

And what about of model of the pre-US Civil War south?

[Tony_S]

Well there was nothing to stop her removing a tree stump if that is what she wanted to do. You could have had a nice time at the show keeping out of her way!

My dear wife would under normal circumstances have happily sent me off to the Maldon exhibition and removed the tree stump herself. However she still hasn't fully recovered from breaking her left arm.

[Ravenser]

Once again, this is in line with the original posting.

 

Could some people think that the Local Authority are running these shows?

 

Dave

20170227_122542.jpg

 

20170227_122651.jpg

 

The short answer is "No".

 

The idea a town or its community is somehow the intellectual property of the Local Authority, and that Boston (say) "belongs" to Boston Borough Council and nobody but them may speak in its name is bizarre and even faintly sinister.

 

 

That's a general comment  (I think I've seen this kind of style used by amateur dramatics societies)

 

. Descending to specifics

 

- Google informs me that the Local Authority for Reigate is Reigate and Banstead Borough Council. Who are never going to describe themselves simply as "Reigate". If the leaflet had said "Reigate & Banstead present" - that's an unusual formulation, normally associated with the Council , and perhaps there might have been some grounds for wondering whether there was an intention to mislead. But it didn't.

 

If you look at the actual handbill, which states Reigate School as the venue, the natural interpretation of "Reigate Presents" might be "Reigate School and members of the local community Present". Given that the school was the venue , and will undoubtedly have "lined their pockets" with far more money , in the form of venue hire, than Dakota Dibden can hope to have made , and the layouts on show may well have been local it's not necessarily an incorrect interpretation

 

- In Maldon the issue is slightly different - too many suspects. Are we talking about Maldon District Council - or Maldon Town Council? Both of which, I'm sure, take great care in using their full style in order to avoid confusion with the other . Or a putative Maldon MRC - although the leaflet does not make any reference whatsoever to a Council or a Club . Or "Maldon's Community Academy" mentioned as the venue. Or AN Other from the town . Or modellers from the town? When the description is so vague it could apply to half a dozen very different candidates, I don't see how you can accuse it of falsely claiming to be  a specific party

 

(If "posing as an entire town" is an ethical issue , then various football clubs are in big trouble, as are county cricket teams . Come to that Nicola Sturgeon seems to pose as an entire country on a regular basis, and various Brussels functionaries pose as a whole continent. I think the horse bolted long ago on this one)

 

As far as size goes , if the show had been the intended 20-21 layouts it would have been roughly equivalent to Chelmsford, Colchester, Braintree or Sudbury in size, and quality would have been at least as good.  Shenfield is a cut above all those shows, but Essex as a whole seems quite weak in terms of exhibitions now. It might well have been someone local who briefed the local paper, conceivably the school, possibly those responsible for manning the door or the teabar. There were certainly a number of local exhibitors

 

As far as Health and Safety is concerned, I didn't see anything of obvious concern - but then I wasn't wandering round with a H&S checklist, and I'm not an exhibition manager. There was a lot of space http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120345-exhibition-at-maldon-25th-feb/

access was level, and both rooms would normally be used by substantial numbers of people , so I assume emergency exits would be adequate (I didn't specifically check them) . I had a slice of cake from the teabar and lived, and I wasn't aware of any electricity supply issues , though as a visitor I might well not be

[Ravenser]

And what about of model of the pre-US Civil War south?

 

I think Bernard Kapinski is in the clear - he's modelling a military railroad under US Army (Union) control. Models of the DR between 1933 and 1945 are a little more questionable

[pete_mcfarlane]

Models of the DR between 1933 and 1945 are a little more questionable

As an aside, many years ago I saw a diecast model car (in the little model shop at Malcesine on Lake Garda in Italy) of an open topped 6 wheeled Mercedes Limo, complete with a little figure of Hitler standing in the back. That was 'questionable' 

[Deltic]

"As far as Health and Safety is concerned, I didn't see anything of obvious concern - but then I wasn't wandering round with a H&S checklist, and I'm not an exhibition manager."

 

Comments were made, for example, around plastic drinking cups - being taken out of refuse bags - washed and the re-used - if true then that is a Health & Safety concern. In addition individuals preparing food, whilst comsuming food were made. Not to mention numerous other Food Safety issues.

 

You mention some Essex exhibitions, but there is also Basildon & Southend to add to the list (perhaps even Romford). I agree that there are not so many around as there were in the past. But then the same could be said about Swapmeets & Boot Fairs, virtually every town & village seemed to play host at one time, but not so today.

[Ravenser]

"As far as Health and Safety is concerned, I didn't see anything of obvious concern - but then I wasn't wandering round with a H&S checklist, and I'm not an exhibition manager."

 

Comments were made, for example, around plastic drinking cups - being taken out of refuse bags - washed and the re-used - if true then that is a Health & Safety concern. In addition individuals preparing food, whilst comsuming food were made. Not to mention numerous other Food Safety issues.

 

You mention some Essex exhibitions, but there is also Basildon & Southend to add to the list (perhaps even Romford). I agree that there are not so many around as there were in the past. But then the same could be said about Swapmeets & Boot Fairs, virtually every town & village seemed to play host at one time, but not so today.

 

If true , that would be very serious. There were only a few cakes and similar bits left when I arrived at about 2pm, and I had a can of drink because it was cheaper, so I saw nothing of that kind, and I've not had Food Safety training to spot issues.

 

My impression of the two people behind the cafeteria counter was that both were certainly pensioners and had probably been so for a while. They didn't look like obvious candidates to be part of a "travelling circus" (judging by the reported age of the promotor , they might have been three times his age) and they might well have been locally recruited . Certainly I got the strong impression that the person on the door was a local recruit

 

Relying on local volunteers whom you may not know well and have  possibly had limited prior contact with does create potential problems for this approach of organising multiple shows in various places,  which a single annual show , involving people you know quite well and have been dealing with for years, does not have (I've never really gone to swapmeets, but this approach of lots of modest sized  events organised by one promoter does sound a bit like the way swapmeets operate - I've no idea how they handle catering)

 

I've never gone to Southend because it would be a bit of a stretch (especially some years ago before I had a car) and to be honest I'd always heard it was a mixed show, and the quality was not high. Basildon is also a bit off my radar.

 

And Cambridgeshire , the ECML corridor, and to a large extent Suffolk have been something of a desert for shows. While this thread seems to have been started to provide a platform to decry the existence of  "commercial shows" I would defend the existence of Warners Peterborough show simply because there were 3 big towns (Peterborough, Cambridge Huntingdon) with zero major shows to serve them, and no sign that anyone else was going to step up to the plate. If Peterborough show were taken off the table then for the last decade we would have had just two 2-day shows in Eastern England between the M25 and the Humber. That's not enough, and neither Spalding nor Southwold are particularly accessible for most of the population in the region

Edited February 28, 2017 by Ravenser

[Torper]

Comments were made, for example, around plastic drinking cups - being taken out of refuse bags - washed and the re-used - if true then that is a Health & Safety concern. In addition individuals preparing food, whilst comsuming food were made. Not to mention numerous other Food Safety issues.

 

This seems very vague and all hearsay - "numerous other (unspecified) Food safety issues".  i would also remind you that the same requirements that apply to commercial catering businesses do not apply to volunteer and community groups that want to provide food in a village hall or other community setting.  I'm also aware that all top chefs consume food while preparing it!

 

It does seem to me that nothing that Dakota can do will please some people.  I personally think it's great that a young man, obviously brimming with enthusiasm, is putting on what are clearly quite decent model railway shows in venues which would not otherwise have one.  That's good for the hobby and deserving of praise, not constant carping criticism.  No doubt he makes a few mistakes as he goes on, but I'm sure he's learning as he goes and I hope his shows will go from strength to strength.

 

DT

[chris p bacon]

To be honest if he gets 4-500 through the door on a one day show, then after layout, hall & advertising expenses he'll be lucky if he breaks even.

 

Regarding food and H&S, re-using cups is not a health & safety issue but a food hygeine one. There isn't an issue with a container being re-used so long as it has been cleaned throughly. Must admit it doesn't give the right impression and somewhat defeats the idea of disposable cups.

[jcm@gwr]

To be honest if he gets 4-500 through the door on a one day show, then after layout, hall & advertising expenses he'll be lucky if he breaks even.

 

Regarding food and H&S, re-using cups is not a health & safety issue but a food hygeine one. There isn't an issue with a container being re-used so long as it has been cleaned throughly. Must admit it doesn't give the right impression and somewhat defeats the idea of disposable cups.

 

It would also suggest that they had far more visitors than they had allowed/catered for.

That is a sign of success, and even the most experienced exhibition organisers can be

caught out in that way.

The CMRA show in January, Stevenage, is a good example, by mid afternoon on the

Saturday, they had run out of armbands and had to start using the Sunday ones!

[chris p bacon]

It would also suggest that they had far more visitors than they had allowed/catered for.

That is a sign of success, and even the most experienced exhibition organisers can be

caught out in that way.

The CMRA show in January, Stevenage, is a good example, by mid afternoon on the

Saturday, they had run out of armbands and had to start using the Sunday ones

I agree it's very difficult to get catering right,  if done well it can boost the takings on the day to cover costs or it can lose you masses of money with dead stock.

 

For an indication of what a one day show takes to put on, our own in Biggleswade takes 5-6 hours on the Friday to set up, and from 7am to 7pm on the Saturday. Every member possible from the club has clearly defined tasks with a roster, it needs 15+ on the Friday and approx 30 on the Saturday. This year approx 10 layout owners needed accomodation and we had to feed about 120 operators & club members on the day. Not an easy task but very enjoyable and rewarding.

[Dagworth]

Why can he not put his own name instead of the name of the town.

 

"Dakota Dibben presents"

 

Be honest, or does he have something to hide?

 

Andi

[Guest]

Why can he not put his own name instead of the name of the town.

 

"Dakota Dibben presents"

 

No disrespect to the guy at all, but "Dakota Dibben presents"? I think not. I really can't take that name seriously. It's like the opening credits to a porn movie.

There does seem to be some personal venom in this thread towards the guy, but like others, I think he's doing a sterling service. The more he gets wrong now, the more he'll get right in the future, and I think that's to be admired.

[Paul Cram]

I was at the Maldon exhibition as an exhibitor. I have the impression that he was let down by a number of layouts not attending that said they would. He also admitted that his communication with exhibitors prior to the event could have been better and said he would improve that. I see nothin wrong in how the show was advertsie abd havibg several Dakota Dibden exhibitions around the country coukl well be more confusing. At least you know where the exhibition is being held. I know that they had run out of cups by mid afternoon as I tried to get a tea and ended up with a coke so i am not sure about the recycling of cups.

[cal.n]

I am a Fell Runner (run up hills for fun?) and there is a very similar situation with fell races being held for commercial gain by people who didn't understand how to run a race, as opposed to club organised races (like model rail clubs) where proceeds go to the club. This became such a big issue because many races are on the same day and many commercial races were boycotted, it even got to the stage that major magazines and websites stopped advertising 'commercially run' races except their own to be seen as 'supporting the club race'.

 

I don't think we ever want to be at the stage were the hobby dismisses non-club shows and media refuse to advertise them, saying that, the larger shows in most places are club run and those that aren't, are done properly by modellers and not by an 'outside' company who doesn't know how to run a show. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by cal.n

[Dagworth]

Wouldn't this be rather more honest?

 

No hiding behind non existant clubs, no hiding that it is a commercial event, put your name to your work

 

 

Andi

 

 

[Ravenser]

Wouldn't this be rather more honest?

 

No hiding behind non existant clubs, no hiding that it is a commercial event, put your name to your work

 

post-509-0-70015700-1488198718.jpg

 

Andi

 

Probably the best would be a small note in the bottom right corner "Organised by DD Events. For more information " and then the contact number. At that point he can stick "Reigate/Maldon Presents" at the top for all I care 

[Dagworth]

Probably the best would be a small note in the bottom right corner "Organised by DD Events. For more information " and then the contact number. At that point he can stick "Reigate/Maldon Presents" at the top for all I care 

but "Reigate" is not presenting anything, Reigate is a town, not an event organiser

 

Andi

[chris p bacon]

but "Reigate" is not presenting anything, Reigate is a town, not an event organiser

 

Andi

Does it really matter?

 

I've got 'Virgin media' and I get emails each week telling me they're 'presenting this week'    I doubt there's anything Virginal' about them.

 

He's trying to make it look more local than it is, this might annoy you but while there is nothing illegal about it does it matter. ? There is an argument that instead of  taking punters away from club events he could be 'warming the market' * for more.

 

 

 

 

 

* Graciously nicked from Sir Peter Parker.

[Guest]

Does it really matter?

 

To some, it would seem it matters a great deal.

 

I constantly read on here and elsewhere about "what can be done to encourage more people into the hobby?"... maybe, just maybe, that's exactly what he's doing.

No intention of upsetting anyone, but I've been to a couple of "club" events in my time and I even briefly considered joining one. The welcome was not exactly the warmest and I got the distinct impression it would have been easier to infiltrate the KGB. My idea that a hobby should be fun and if it's not fun, you're doing it wrong went down like a lead balloon.

A singular bad impression? Maybe, but a lasting one. Let him get on with what he's doing. If he's in any way breaking the law - fine, do something about it. Food safety/H&S hearsay is a bit tenuous though, isn't it? Perhaps some of you need to lower the height of your moral high horse, and lose the "this town ain't big enough for the both of us" attitude.