British Rail Mk1 Coaches

[keefer]

As said before, useful for portions/branch lines but assuming not much luggage/parcels etc, as they had a smaller van space than other brake coaches

[luckymucklebackit]

A link to this post shows a well know historical use for the BSK Carstairs BSK

 

Jim

[Steven B]

19 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

What were bck intended to be used for and how common were they? Specifically in blue/grey and IC executive liveries. Just seems a bit of an odd vehicle, although ideal for a 2 coach trainset rake with an SO! 

 

In the mid/late 1980s the following trains ran with a BCK:

Cardiff - Crewe: BSK BCK POS POT GUV (TPO with passenger accommodation)

There was also a BCK + 3x SK set that ran St Pancras to Sheffield and Derby to Leicester with diversions to Nottingham and Scarbough. The set could often be extended with the addition of another four SK, or with BG/GUV vans.

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

[jonny777]

The following numbers may be useful to some modellers. I found them in an old notebook, and it appears a bored spotter turned to writing down carriage numbers in addition to locomotive ones. 

 

Anyhow, this is from Paddington on December 19th 1956. These are in the order they have been written into the notebook. 

 

W15117, W25105, W35034, W34816, W24541, W24716, W1008, W13133, W13128, W34815, W34842, W34824, W25121, W15610, W25086, W34773, W7, W1011, W9266, W3817, W3818, W3814, W3815, M34657, W3819, W3813, W3820, W9267, W21155, W34810, W13140, W24539, W24358, W25059, W34763, W25083, W24360, W13135, W9620W, W612W, S1311S, S24485S, S942S, W34752, W34768, W13137, W15777, W25069, W25066, W34760, W35025, W25112, W15613, W15819, W21156, W15861, W25051, W34813, W34787, W24747, W15535, W15537, W25055, W34308, W25157, W34861, W13079, W15071, W25142, W25160, W34865, W46167, W46013, W41057, W46144, W48053, W46152, W21160, W48044

Edited February 24, 2021 by jonny777

[Phil Bullock]

A nice mix of Mk1s except no catering vehicles or FOs. Wonder what that Southern stock was? 

[jonny777]

4 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

A nice mix of Mk1s except no catering vehicles or FOs. Wonder what that Southern stock was? 

 

There are catering vehicles. 

 

W7, W1011 and W1008 are all restaurant cars of various layouts. 

[Bomag]

7 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

There are catering vehicles. 

 

W7, W1011 and W1008 are all restaurant cars of various layouts. 

 

And also being late 1956 the list would unlikely to include any RB, RU or RMB. I think at that time the WR had 8 Mk1 kitchen cars (6 RFs and 2 RKs)

[37114]

On 22/06/2016 at 23:54, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

Also there are the peculiar Train Heating Boiler Vans. They are smallest Mk1 based vehicles to be built. I never have found out if they actually ran or where just positioned at termini for preheating stock. Here's a photo at Departmentals: http://www.departmentals.com/photo/70185

 

All the best,

 

Jack

Pretty sure they never ran in trains, they were built on wagon chassis so wouldn't have had the max speed to support their use on the mainline Jack. They are a nice kit bash project from parkside chassis and bits of Bachmann MK1 coach

 

[Phil Bullock]

25 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

There are catering vehicles. 

 

W7, W1011 and W1008 are all restaurant cars of various layouts. 

But no kitchens to run with them - they are all first or second diners. I don’t know the Southern vehicles but Is W9620W the only possible kitchen? 
 

Edit : Ah yes W9620W was an ex articulated kitchen first

Edited February 24, 2021 by Phil Bullock

[jonny777]

8 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

But no kitchens! 

 

Possibly not. I wouldn't know. But, then I also have no clue as to what time of day the record was made. It may just have been at a time when any kitchen cars would not have been rostered to be there. 

[jonny777]

53 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

The following numbers may be useful to some modellers. I found them in an old notebook, and it appears a bored spotter turned to writing down carriage numbers in addition to locomotive ones. 

 

Anyhow, this is from Paddington on December 19th 1956. These are in the order they have been written into the notebook. 

 

W15117, W25105, W35034, W34816, W24541, W24716, W1008, W13133, W13128, W34815, W34842, W34824, W25121, W15610, W25086, W34773, W7, W1011, W9266, W3817, W3818, W3814, W3815, M34657, W3819, W3813, W3820, W9267, W21155, W34810, W13140, W24539, W24358, W25059, W34763, W25083, W24360, W13135, W9620W, W612W, S1311S, S24485S, S942S, W34752, W34768, W13137, W15777, W25069, W25066, W34760, W35025, W25112, W15613, W15819, W21156, W15861, W25051, W34813, W34787, W24747, W15535, W15537, W25055, W34308, W25157, W34861, W13079, W15071, W25142, W25160, W34865, W46167, W46013, W41057, W46144, W48053, W46152, W21160, W48044

 

 

Prior to the Paddington visit, our carriage spotter was at Kings Cross on the previous day December 18th 1956. 

 

Here are his notes from that visit - 

 

E34482, E4269, E34476, E4326, E13635, E4293, E13100, E15694M, E34731, E4306, E4291, E9215, E25693M, E80967, E13125, E11, E80001, E1000M, E25021, E25040, E25023, E16475E, E13440E, E21746E, E11182E, E9154E, E13398E, E13344E, E16286E, E16182E, E15587, E9248, E24156, E24211, E43130, E46167, E46210, E46214, E43125

[Phil Bullock]

Ah the Eastern Certainly knew how to feed the punters ..... looks like a 3 coach catering set with a full kitchen E80001 flanked by Restaurant first and second.

[jonny777]

With a visit to Kings Cross, it would be rude not to drop in on St Pancras and then Euston; and maybe even double back to Liverpool Street in order to see what was around. 

 

St Pancras Dec 18th 1956

 

M34392, M15336, M4428, M15683, M24142, M24838, M34700, M34125, M24422, M24438, M34099, M15382, M3046, M3768, M24844, M24397, M34469, M3M, M6866M, M27440M, M1108M, M1111M, M30077M

 

Euston

 

M3748, M24107, M35051, M3017, M53234, M46076, M80677, M15924, M21025, M13060, E80792, M4366, M24105, M34399, M1546, M35049, M24679, M24678, M4424, M3735, M30025M, M27291M, M28005M, M29617M, M28818M, M30098, M30078M, M247M, M13008, M13177, M34529, M15644, M15251, M15937, M13175, M3712, M24085, M24041, M34577, M15454, M15219, W80720M

 

Liverpool Street (a few wagons also)

 

E24636, E15469, E24245, E24244, E34496, E15756, E416, E2355, M10571, P106119, P118980, E290269, B102137, B128972, M135035

 

[Rods_of_Revolution]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

Pretty sure they never ran in trains, they were built on wagon chassis so wouldn't have had the max speed to support their use on the mainline Jack. They are a nice kit bash project from parkside chassis and bits of Bachmann MK1 coach

 

 

I think you're probably right about them not running in passenger trains. Since I made my model I have also seen them in Southern Region Green and Engineers Olive. Perhaps they were used to heat engineering mess vans at some point, as the mess vans were often older steam heat vehicles.

 

They're certainly a nice novelty, and if I'm ever the quiz master in a railway themed quiz, they'll provide an interesting answer to the question 'which was the shortest Mk1 based vehicle?'

 

Here's my attempt in N scale:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

 

 

[wasabi]

A further type is mentioned in Colin Marsden's 'Coaching Stock Recognition' published in 1987 by Ian Allan, namely the SLB bullion van classed as NW under TOPS.  Two remained (on the LMR) at the time of publication and it looks like they were supplemented by container flats with the coaches carrying an escort.  They had "sophisticated...communications equipment" - presumably doing what mobile phones do now, although I wonder what masts they used? 

 

Colin also includes the Leyland coach, trialled as a replacement for the Mk 1s.

 

[IPW]

[37114]

3 minutes ago, wasabi said:

A further type is mentioned in Colin Marsden's 'Coaching Stock Recognition' published in 1987 by Ian Allan, namely the SLB bullion van classed as NW under TOPS.  Two remained (on the LMR) at the time of publication and it looks like they were supplemented by container flats with the coaches carrying an escort.  They had "sophisticated...communications equipment" - presumably doing what mobile phones do now, although I wonder what masts they used? 

 

Colin also includes the Leyland coach, trialled as a replacement for the Mk 1s.

 

[IPW]

The container flats in the bullion train were also originally MK1 coaches as well.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

The container flats in the bullion train were also originally MK1 coaches as well.

Doubtless had these before Paul Bartlett's Photographs | BR Container flat for bullion FXA (zenfolio.com)  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bullionflat

and the bullion coaches https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brnpccs/e3ee05fa4 and a couple of others. 

 

Paul

 

[keefer]

IIRC the WR didn't really have/use any mk1 kitchen vehicles until the propane gas fitted vehicles came in, preferring to use the ex-GW kitchens instead of the unpopular anthracite-fuelled early mk1s.

The Bullion Vans (along with the TPOs) used VHF radio communications and had roof-mounted antennas

[chrisf]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

A nice mix of Mk1s except no catering vehicles or FOs. Wonder what that Southern stock was? 

W7 is a RFO, W1011 a RSO.

 

Chris

[balders]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

W7 is a RFO, W1011 a RSO.

 

Chris

Southern stock

 

"S1311S, S24485S, S942S"

 

First one is a PMV, I guess the second one probably is more than likely a CCT (with a typo....S2448S) and the last is a gangwayed BY......so all parcels stock. 

 

Sorry Chris....for some reason it didn't include the whole quote! 

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited February 24, 2021 by balders
Explanation

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, keefer said:

IIRC the WR didn't really have/use any mk1 kitchen vehicles until the propane gas fitted vehicles came in, preferring to use the ex-GW kitchens instead of the unpopular anthracite-fuelled early mk1s.

The Bullion Vans (along with the TPOs) used VHF radio communications and had roof-mounted antennas

The WR had a couple of Diag 700 kitchen cars and the five Diag 17 restaurant firsts from 1952 but I believe they disliked the anthracite stoves. There are photos of the kitchen cars in service in the 1950s, but not many. They were in Paddington-Wolverhampton sets most of the time, if at all. The five kitchen firsts did have a bit of a revival with one appearing in a Devonian set and another, painted chocolate and cream, in The Red Dragon, but all met a pretty early demise.

[Ravenser]

8 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

 

Prior to the Paddington visit, our carriage spotter was at Kings Cross on the previous day December 18th 1956. 

 

Here are his notes from that visit - 

 

E34482, E4269, E34476, E4326, E13635, E4293, E13100, E15694M, E34731, E4306, E4291, E9215, E25693M, E80967, E13125, E11, E80001, E1000M, E25021, E25040, E25023, E16475E, E13440E, E21746E, E11182E, E9154E, E13398E, E13344E, E16286E, E16182E, E15587, E9248, E24156, E24211, E43130, E46167, E46210, E46214, E43125

 

 

Let's have a go at these....

 

The block of E suffix numbers are presumably the record of a complete ex LNER formed train:

 

E16475E  BTK  ; E13440E all 3rd  ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first? ; E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E, E13344E,  all thirds ;E16286E BTK, E16182E BTK,

 

Some very second string 9 coach express with an extra BTK on one end, for some reason (a portion? But no 1st class accommodation. Unless the CK in the next list is part of a 2 coach portion? or the BTK is the start of the next rake?)

 

Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   (Can't make sense of this - a Mk1 BSO at this date might be expected at the front of an ECML express - but this group of coaches plainly isn't)

 

E43130 Mk1 non gangway BS , E46167 non-gangway S, E46210 non-gangway S, E46214 non-gangway S , E43125 non-gangway BS   (Clearly a 5 car inner suburban set)

 

As for the first block 

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694M (ex LMS, dunno), E34731 - BSK, E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, E9215 - BSO,  (This looks like something with lots of portions - but they're all 2nd class???)

 

E25693M, ( no idea what this LMS vehicle is, probably goes with the subsequent train??:)

 

E80967 (BG - originally allocated to LMR) , E13125 - FK, E11 -RFO;  E80001 - RK, E1000M - RSO?, E25021 - SK, E25040 SK, E25023 SK,   (Lots of catering but seemingly only an 8 coach express?)

 

The spotter may have only partially recorded some trains, as some of the formations don't quite make sense to me.  Maybe someone who actually understands the subject can identify what we are really looking at here? 

[62613]

Might the train formed of ex-LNER coaches be a relief to another train?

 

[jonny777]

On 24/02/2021 at 22:38, Ravenser said:

 

 

Let's have a go at these....

 

The block of E suffix numbers are presumably the record of a complete ex LNER formed train:

 

E16475E  BTK  ; E13440E all 3rd  ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first? ; E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E, E13344E,  all thirds ;E16286E BTK, E16182E BTK,

 

Some very second string 9 coach express with an extra BTK on one end, for some reason (a portion? But no 1st class accommodation. Unless the CK in the next list is part of a 2 coach portion? or the BTK is the start of the next rake?)

 

Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   (Can't make sense of this - a Mk1 BSO at this date might be expected at the front of an ECML express - but this group of coaches plainly isn't)

 

E43130 Mk1 non gangway BS , E46167 non-gangway S, E46210 non-gangway S, E46214 non-gangway S , E43125 non-gangway BS   (Clearly a 5 car inner suburban set)

 

As for the first block 

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694M (ex LMS, dunno), E34731 - BSK, E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, E9215 - BSO,  (This looks like something with lots of portions - but they're all 2nd class???)

 

E25693M, ( no idea what this LMS vehicle is, probably goes with the subsequent train??:)

 

E80967 (BG - originally allocated to LMR) , E13125 - FK, E11 -RFO;  E80001 - RK, E1000M - RSO?, E25021 - SK, E25040 SK, E25023 SK,   (Lots of catering but seemingly only an 8 coach express?)

 

The spotter may have only partially recorded some trains, as some of the formations don't quite make sense to me.  Maybe someone who actually understands the subject can identify what we are really looking at here? 

 

The only comment I would make, is that if the person who made the notes was in possession of a platform ticket, he might have been walking down a platform with a train on either side and recording the numbers of both formations alternately? He may also have listed the catering vehicles in a separate column to the others? 

 

What I can tell you, and might be useful - but I had failed to appreciate at the time of posting - is that E15694, E15693, E1000, E25021, E25040 were in maroon livery; but the others were in crimson/cream. 

 

This is the reason for the 'M' next to E15693 and E15694.  E25693 is a typo on my part. 

 

E21746E has a 'B' next to it. Whether this means that it was still in pre-nationalisation brown/teak I don't know - but it would be surprising in mid-1956. 

 

Sorry to mislead you. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by jonny777

[Ravenser]

5 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

The only comment I would make, is that if the person who made the notes was in possession of a platform ticket, he might have been walking down a platform with a train on either side and recording the numbers of both formations alternately? He may also have listed the catering vehicles in a separate column to the others? 

 

What I can tell you, and might be useful - but I had failed to appreciate at the time of posting - is that E15694, E15693, E1000, E25021, E25040 were in maroon livery; but the others were in crimson/cream. 

 

This is the reason for the 'M' next to E15693 and E15694.  E25693 is a typo on my part. 

 

E21746E has a 'B' next to it. Whether this means that it was still in pre-nationalisation brown/teak I don't know - but it would be surprising in mid-1956. 

 

Sorry to mislead you. 

 

 

Okay - we can now clarify :

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694 (maroon CK), E34731 - BSK, E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, E9215 - BSO,  (This looks like something with lots of portions - a Bradford/Leeds express with a Hull portion??)

 

E25693, ( maroon SK - this probably goes with the subsequent train, but cut off from the rest of the train by a BG is very odd marshalling. Tacked on  at the front of a BSO is hardly much better) 

 

E80967 (BG - originally allocated to LMR) , E13125 - FK, E11 -RFO;  E80001 - RK, E1000 - RSO, E25021 - SK, E25040 SK, E25023 SK,   (Lots of catering but seemingly only an 8 coach express? Could this be something very prestigious like the KX-Edinburgh "non-stop" ??? The presence of 2 maroon Mk1s hints it's getting the best stock available)

 

The block of 5 non-gangwayed stock is a coherent inner suburban train, and the block of E-suffix numbers looks like another complete train - that tells against the theory he has recorded coaches from alternating sides of the platform . In any case it would be much easier just to walk down the platform taking the numbers from the coaches one after another, then walk back taking the numbers on the other side. You'd have to do that in walking from the barrier to the country end of the platform and back, anyway

 

E16475E  BTK  ; E13440E all 3rd  ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first? ; E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E, E13344E,  all thirds ;E16286E BTK, E16182E BTK,

 

The information that the ex NER coach is annotated B is interesting. Brown is a bit surprising at so late a date, and the practice of painting pre-grouping  coaches in LNER brown , not the appropriate BR livery, until withdrawal is reported on the GE Section, but nowhere else as far as I know. 

 

Are we possibly looking at a record of a Cambridge Buffet Car Express here?? That would account for the pre-nationalisation stock - the Cambridge trains were certainly a second-division main line service - and if the train had originated on the GE at Cambridge then the appearance of a pre-grouping vehicle in brown is a lot more understandable. I believe quite a few NER bogie coaches were transferred to the GE in the 1930s. A pre-grouping veteran in a mainline train at KX in 1956 is eye-opening to start with, but a stand-in on a Cambridge train is one of the more reasonable scenarios . The catering provision also seems appropriate.

 

The final BTK might well be part of the next train:

 

 E16182E BTK,  Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   

 

It still doesn't quite make sense as there are only 5 coaches, but we seem to have two short portions, each with a brake. Possibly this is waiting for the rest of the train to be made up with stock from another incoming working ??  (I've just noticed this actually mirrors the last 5 coaches of the first train discussed, though with an LNER BTK replacing a Mk1 BSK - which makes the portion theory look more plausible)

Edited February 27, 2021 by Ravenser