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But were the pre-nationalisation coaches recorded separately but were actually mixed with the mk1s, E16182E BTK would then be marshalled after the three mk1 TK and would make more sense.

 

Looking at the St Pancras list

M34392  BSK

M15336  CK

M4428    TSO

M15683  CK

M24142  SK

M24838  SK

M34700  BSK

 

M34125  BSK

M24422  SK

M24438  SK

 

M34099  BSK

M15382  CK

M3046    FO

M3768    TSO

M24844  SK

M24397  SK

M34469  BSK

 

M3M           p2 RF      between The TSO and one of the CKs in the first train ?

M6866M    p3 BCK    added to the three coaches to make a 4 set with some first class ?

M27440M  p3 TO      strengthener attached to either set or waiting to be attached to some other train ?

M11080M  p1 T         strengthener attached to either set or waiting to be attached to some other train ?

M1111M    p3 FK       between the CK and FO of the third train ?

M30077M  p3 RK       between the FO and TSO of the third train ?

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

Okay - we can now clarify :

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694 (maroon CK), E34731 - BSK, E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, E9215 - BSO,  (This looks like something with lots of portions - a Bradford/Leeds express with a Hull portion??)

 

E25693, ( maroon SK - this probably goes with the subsequent train, but cut off from the rest of the train by a BG is very odd marshalling. Tacked on  at the front of a BSO is hardly much better) 

 

E80967 (BG - originally allocated to LMR) , E13125 - FK, E11 -RFO;  E80001 - RK, E1000 - RSO, E25021 - SK, E25040 SK, E25023 SK,   (Lots of catering but seemingly only an 8 coach express? Could this be something very prestigious like the KX-Edinburgh "non-stop" ??? The presence of 2 maroon Mk1s hints it's getting the best stock available)

 

The block of 5 non-gangwayed stock is a coherent inner suburban train, and the block of E-suffix numbers looks like another complete train - that tells against the theory he has recorded coaches from alternating sides of the platform . In any case it would be much easier just to walk down the platform taking the numbers from the coaches one after another, then walk back taking the numbers on the other side. You'd have to do that in walking from the barrier to the country end of the platform and back, anyway

 

E16475E  BTK  ; E13440E all 3rd  ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first? ; E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E, E13344E,  all thirds ;E16286E BTK, E16182E BTK,

 

The information that the ex NER coach is annotated B is interesting. Brown is a bit surprising at so late a date, and the practice of painting pre-grouping  coaches in LNER brown , not the appropriate BR livery, until withdrawal is reported on the GE Section, but nowhere else as far as I know. 

 

Are we possibly looking at a record of a Cambridge Buffet Car Express here?? That would account for the pre-nationalisation stock - the Cambridge trains were certainly a second-division main line service - and if the train had originated on the GE at Cambridge then the appearance of a pre-grouping vehicle in brown is a lot more understandable. I believe quite a few NER bogie coaches were transferred to the GE in the 1930s. A pre-grouping veteran in a mainline train at KX in 1956 is eye-opening to start with, but a stand-in on a Cambridge train is one of the more reasonable scenarios . The catering provision also seems appropriate.

 

The final BTK might well be part of the next train:

 

 E16182E BTK,  Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   

 

It still doesn't quite make sense as there are only 5 coaches, but we seem to have two short portions, each with a brake. Possibly this is waiting for the rest of the train to be made up with stock from another incoming working ??  (I've just noticed this actually mirrors the last 5 coaches of the first train discussed, though with an LNER BTK replacing a Mk1 BSK - which makes the portion theory look more plausible)

A couple of comments:

 

The 8 coaches with a triple dining set was almost certainly part of the Heart of Midlothian – 14:00 KX-Edinburgh. A quick google of 18th Dec 1956 indicates it was a Tuesday. Looking at the ECML winter 1956 carriage workings, the formation leaving KX should have been BSO, CK, SK, SK, SK, RSO, RK, RFO, FK, BG, CK, BSO, the last 2 coaches were detached at Newcastle.  Possibly some of the CK & BSO quoted completed the train.

 

E21746E was an ex-NER buffet car conversion. Steve Banks website has photos confirming that it was in brown livery at that time. A bit odd with 2 buffet cars if it was one set. It is unlikely to be a Cambridge Buffet Express set as these would have had some Mk1 stock in by 1956 and the usual buffet cars were either a Tourist Car or an ex-GN conversion.

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1 hour ago, mark54 said:

A couple of comments:

 

The 8 coaches with a triple dining set was almost certainly part of the Heart of Midlothian – 14:00 KX-Edinburgh. A quick google of 18th Dec 1956 indicates it was a Tuesday. Looking at the ECML winter 1956 carriage workings, the formation leaving KX should have been BSO, CK, SK, SK, SK, RSO, RK, RFO, FK, BG, CK, BSO, the last 2 coaches were detached at Newcastle.  Possibly some of the CK & BSO quoted completed the train.

 

 E21746 was an ex-NER buffet car conversion. Steve Banks website has photos confirming that it was in brown livery at that time. A bit odd with 2 buffet cars if it was one set. It is unlikely to be a Cambridge Buffet Express set as these would have had some Mk1 stock in by 1956 and the usual buffet cars were either a Tourist Car or an ex-GN conversion.

 

 

Useful and informative.  It's clear from this that the recorder is clearly taking notes in train order, but not consistently recording everything - he's definitely recorded most of the Heart of Midlothian formation, and I think we can now say that 

E9215 - BSO,  E25693 -  maroon SK , E80967  -BG

Is the Newcastle portion of the Heart of Midlothian, with an SK substituted for a CK. The train is missing a CK and BSO at the front

 

Similarly the non-gangwayed Mk1s stick out like a sore thumb as a complete train

 

Clearly the recorder was at the Cross around lunchtime for him to record this

 

The plot thickens with regard to the ex LNER stock , however we can now say that the ex NER coach has probably worked in from the NEReg  - E21746E, Hull Aug 1956  and clearly the practice of painting things brown after 1948 wasn't confined to the GE and Stratford. This has presumably come in from Yorkshire - a train to or from Leeds, Bradford or Hull with catering provision.

 

On the other hand Steve Banks explicitly states this vehicle ended its days in East Anglia - in which case a Cambridge Buffet Car Express still makes sense. It might be an excursion train - these kind of vehicles were certainly being used for excursion workings as Steve Banks photos show, and going to some unusual places. Two buffets in an excursion set was apparently LNER practice - but corridor stock and firsts in such sets wasn't

 

E34482 - BSK, E4269 - TSO, E34476 - BSK, E4326 - TSO, E13635 - FK, E4293 - TSO, E13100 - FK, E15694 (maroon CK), E34731 - BSK,

 

now looks like a 9 coach train with a 2 coach portion to be detached but no catering, and  E4306 - TSO, E4291 - TSO, are unaccounted for. They may be related though, because the striking thing here is that almost all the second class accommodation is in open seconds - surely not normal for ECML expresses in 1956?

 

E16475E  Tourist stock BTO dia 169  ; E13440E  tourist open  3rd dia 186 ; E21746E ex NER vehicle ; E11182E, all first?;  E9154E Buffet car Dia 185 , conv frm Gresley all 3rd; E13398E tourist open 3rd, E13344E, tourist open third ; E16286E BTK but can't trace in Harris, 

 

This does look very much like an excursion train

 

 E16182E BTK,  Then: E15587 - Mk1 CK, E9248 - BSO, E24156 - SK, E24211-  SK,   not clear but is the front of the Heart of Midlothian concealed in here?

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On 24/02/2021 at 14:21, jonny777 said:

With a visit to Kings Cross, it would be rude not to drop in on St Pancras and then Euston; and maybe even double back to Liverpool Street in order to see what was around. 

 

St Pancras Dec 18th 1956

 

M34392, M15336, M4428, M15683, M24142, M24838, M34700, M34125, M24422, M24438, M34099, M15382, M3046, M3768, M24844, M24397, M34469, M3M, M6866M, M27440M, M1108M, M1111M, M30077M

 

Euston

 

M3748, M24107, M35051, M3017, M53234, M46076, M80677, M15924, M21025, M13060, E80792, M4366, M24105, M34399, M1546, M35049, M24679, M24678, M4424, M3735, M30025M, M27291M, M28005M, M29617M, M28818M, M30098, M30078M, M247M, M13008, M13177, M34529, M15644, M15251, M15937, M13175, M3712, M24085, M24041, M34577, M15454, M15219, W80720M

 

Liverpool Street (a few wagons also)

 

E24636, E15469, E24245, E24244, E34496, E15756, E416, E2355, M10571, P106119, P118980, E290269, B102137, B128972, M135035

 

 

 

As the KX listing has proved fruitful and interesting, let's have a shot at this...

 

We now know that the recorder is at KX some time between 12:00 and 14:00 (as he has recorded the 14:00 Heart of Midlothian) and presumably is at St Pancras about the same time on the same day. We also know that our recorder has an eye for the odd and the glamourous, as a spotter would...  (He's recorded a premium express, and an eye-catching bunch of LNER Tourist stock and vintage buffets)

 

As this is slightly out of my normal era , and I have an ER bias which shows up in my out-of-period reference works, let's start with Liverpool St.

 

E24636 - SK, E15469 - CK , E24245 - SK, E24244 - SK, E34496 - BSK ,

 

E15756 - CK , (originally WR), E416 (not in Parkin - and not possible as a 1943 series LNER number), E2355 (same comment), M10571 (same comment - 10xxx series was not used by either LNER or BR for coaches)

 

Now for the wagons:

P106119, P118980, (two PO wagons - these were renumbered at random onto the P series so nothing more can be said),  E290269 - ex LNER 16T steel mineral , B102137 - 16t mineral 1/108, B128972- 16t mineral 1/109, M135035 (not sure , but I suspect an ex LMS coal wagon: it's above the range for Mk1 FKs)

 

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15 hours ago, markw said:

But were the pre-nationalisation coaches recorded separately but were actually mixed with the mk1s, E16182E BTK would then be marshalled after the three mk1 TK and would make more sense.

 

Looking at the St Pancras list

M34392  BSK

M15336  CK

M4428    TSO

M15683  CK

M24142  SK

M24838  SK

M34700  BSK

 

M34125  BSK

M24422  SK

M24438  SK

 

M34099  BSK

M15382  CK

M3046    FO

M3768    TSO

M24844  SK

M24397  SK

M34469  BSK

 

M3M           p2 RF      between The TSO and one of the CKs in the first train ?

M6866M    p3 BCK    added to the three coaches to make a 4 set with some first class ?

M27440M  p3 TO      strengthener attached to either set or waiting to be attached to some other train ?

M11080M  p1 T         strengthener attached to either set or waiting to be attached to some other train ?

M1111M    p3 FK       between the CK and FO of the third train ?

M30077M  p3 RK       between the FO and TSO of the third train ?

 

 

 

 

I'm sceptical that the pre-nationalisation coaches have been broken out separately and should be transposed back into trains of our choice. That's certainly not the case at King's Cross with the Tourist stock.

 

M-suffix here is plainly ex LMS not "maroon" as the numbers aren't possible for Mk1s

 

The RF +  BCK may be the end of the previous train, with these vehicles to be detached en route (at Nottingham or Leeds?) I wonder if we have a 12 coach express, with a portion of 3 coaches detached somewhere - Leeds maybe, with a Bradford portion on an Anglo-Sottish train??. Shunt off the BCK and RF with the replacement train engine for use on an evening train back from Leeds to St Pancras , and leave the front three on the buffer stops with the train engine  - Leeds Wellington being a reversal?

 

The rest look like stray coaches or strengtheners - the RK has surely been detached from something important that came in over lunchtime, the Period 3 TO might be a loose dining car and a non-corridor Period 1 third is a vintage relic that's going to mess up any mainline corridor train it's added to

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Euston

 

M3748, M24107, M35051, M3017, M53234, M46076, M80677, M15924, M21025, M13060, E80792, M4366, M24105, M34399, M1546, M35049, M24679, M24678, M4424, M3735, M30025M, M27291M, M28005M, M29617M, M28818M, M30098, M30078M, M247M, M13008, M13177, M34529, M15644, M15251, M15937, M13175, M3712, M24085, M24041, M34577, M15454, M15219, W80720M

 

So 

M3748, -TSO  M24107 - SK , M35051 BSK - originally SReg, M3017 - FO, M53234 - not a Mk1 ;

 

 M46076 - non-gangway S, M80677 - BG, M15924 - CK, M21025 - BCK, M13060 - FK, E80792 BG (originally ER), M4366 - TSO, M24105, M34399 - BSK, M1546 - KB, M35049 - BSK, M24679 - SK, M24678 - SK, M4424 TSO, M3735 - TSO, A real jumble and difficult to make any sense of it

 

M30025M, M27291M, M28005M, M29617M, M28818M, M30098 (not a Mk1 - probably an M suffix has been omitted), M30078M, M247M  (LMS dining car?),   These are very high numbers - the M300xxM might be full brakes but they seem to be below the LMS 50' BGs, and M2xxxxM might be Portholes, or just possibly something pre-grouping

 

M13008 - FK, M13177 - FK, This might be the first class section of the previous train, marshalled next to the dining car: Mk1s for the first class and portholes for the second class passengers? That would give a 12 coach train - credible on the WCML

 

M34529 - BSK, M15644 - CK, M15251- CK, M15937 - CK, M13175 - FK, M3712 - TSO, M24085 - SK, M24041 - SK, M34577- BSK, M15454 - CK, M15219 - CK, W80720M  (Should be a WR Mk1 BG - this may indicate a Maroon or Crimson vehicle) There is a LOT of first class in this train but we seem to have a coherent 12 coach formation.  A stray WR BG might indicate this train had something to do with the West Midlands - one area where the WR and LMR touched and a BG might stray

 

The Euston record seems more jumbled, but it looks as if we may have two complete 12 coach trains  recorded 

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54 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

I'm sceptical that the pre-nationalisation coaches have been broken out separately and should be transposed back into trains of our choice. That's certainly not the case at King's Cross with the Tourist stock.

 

M-suffix here is plainly ex LMS not "maroon" as the numbers aren't possible for Mk1s

 

The RF +  BCK may be the end of the previous train, with these vehicles to be detached en route (at Nottingham or Leeds?) I wonder if we have a 12 coach express, with a portion of 3 coaches detached somewhere - Leeds maybe, with a Bradford portion on an Anglo-Sottish train??. Shunt off the BCK and RF with the replacement train engine for use on an evening train back from Leeds to St Pancras , and leave the front three on the buffer stops with the train engine  - Leeds Wellington being a reversal?

 

The rest look like stray coaches or strengtheners - the RK has surely been detached from something important that came in over lunchtime, the Period 3 TO might be a loose dining car and a non-corridor Period 1 third is a vintage relic that's going to mess up any mainline corridor train it's added to

I disagree about the Kings Cross list, if you treat it as two separate lists of mk1s and pre-nationalisation coaches you get:

E9215    BSO

E15693  CK

E80967  BG

E13125  FK

E11         RFO

E80001  RK

E1000    RSO

E25021  SK

E25040  SK

E25023  SK

E15587  CK

E9248    BSO

The full correct formation for The Heart of Midlothian.

 

I suspect he reserved half a page for mk1s but ran out of room after E25023 so continued the mk1 list after the pre-nationalisation list.

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1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

So 

M3748, -TSO  M24107 - SK , M35051 BSK - originally SReg, M3017 - FO, M53234 - not a Mk1 ;

 

 M46076 - non-gangway S, M80677 - BG, M15924 - CK, M21025 - BCK, M13060 - FK, E80792 BG (originally ER), M4366 - TSO, M24105, M34399 - BSK, M1546 - KB, M35049 - BSK, M24679 - SK, M24678 - SK, M4424 TSO, M3735 - TSO, A real jumble and difficult to make any sense of it

 

M30025M, M27291M, M28005M, M29617M, M28818M, M30098 (not a Mk1 - probably an M suffix has been omitted), M30078M, M247M  (LMS dining car?),   These are very high numbers - the M300xxM might be full brakes but they seem to be below the LMS 50' BGs, and M2xxxxM might be Portholes, or just possibly something pre-grouping

 

M13008 - FK, M13177 - FK, This might be the first class section of the previous train, marshalled next to the dining car: Mk1s for the first class and portholes for the second class passengers? That would give a 12 coach train - credible on the WCML

 

M34529 - BSK, M15644 - CK, M15251- CK, M15937 - CK, M13175 - FK, M3712 - TSO, M24085 - SK, M24041 - SK, M34577- BSK, M15454 - CK, M15219 - CK, W80720M  (Should be a WR Mk1 BG - this may indicate a Maroon or Crimson vehicle) There is a LOT of first class in this train but we seem to have a coherent 12 coach formation.  A stray WR BG might indicate this train had something to do with the West Midlands - one area where the WR and LMR touched and a BG might stray

 

The Euston record seems more jumbled, but it looks as if we may have two complete 12 coach trains  recorded 

M3748, M4366 and M3735 are 48 seat SO not TSO.

M53234 typo may be FO M3234 ?

M30025M is a p1 RK

M27291M is a p3 TO.

M28005M-M29617M-M28818M is a Watford electric unit.

M30098M and M30078M are p3 RK.

M247M is a p3 RC.

 

Note all the pre-nationalisation coaches are for dining, clearly they must be included within the mk1 sets.

Edited by markw
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4 hours ago, markw said:

I disagree about the Kings Cross list, if you treat it as two separate lists of mk1s and pre-nationalisation coaches you get:

E9215    BSO

E15693  CK

E80967  BG

E13125  FK

E11         RFO

E80001  RK

E1000    RSO

E25021  SK

E25040  SK

E25023  SK

E15587  CK

E9248    BSO

The full correct formation for The Heart of Midlothian.

 

I suspect he reserved half a page for mk1s but ran out of room after E25023 so continued the mk1 list after the pre-nationalisation list.

 

We are deep into textual scholarship now , but...

 

You want to emend E25693 to E15693 ... . Possible , but a stretch. Whether the front two coaches have yet been attached to the Heart of Midlothian is an open question to my mind. The implication of portions being added and subtracted from trains is that major stations will end up with a "cut" of stray coaches which the station pilot will shunt onto the next trains in their diagrams . That may be what we are seeing in some of the "jumbles of bits"

 

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of taking random coaches out of the list and stuffing them in somewhere else we would like them to fit. It is pretty clear our recorder is taking down runs of carriage numbers that make actual trains - the local at the Cross, the Heart of Midlothian, and the Euston-Watford set at Euston

 

The LNER coaches scream "excursion set" to me with a coherent marshalling order - the only first is sandwiched between two buffet cars, which makes a certain sense, two buffet cars on an excursion set is known LNER practice , and these buffet conversions are known to have been used for excursion work at this time. The stray BTK might just be a strengthener

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On 27/02/2021 at 14:20, jonny777 said:

 

The only comment I would make, is that if the person who made the notes was in possession of a platform ticket, he might have been walking down a platform with a train on either side and recording the numbers of both formations alternately? He may also have listed the catering vehicles in a separate column to the others? 

 

What I can tell you, and might be useful - but I had failed to appreciate at the time of posting - is that E15694, E15693, E1000, E25021, E25040 were in maroon livery; but the others were in crimson/cream. 

 

This is the reason for the 'M' next to E15693 and E15694.  E25693 is a typo on my part. 

 

E21746E has a 'B' next to it. Whether this means that it was still in pre-nationalisation brown/teak I don't know - but it would be surprising in mid-1956. 

 

Sorry to mislead you. 

No jonny777 amended it as quoted above.

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3 hours ago, markw said:

M3748, M4366 and M3735 are 48 seat SO not TSO.

M53234 typo may be FO M3234 ?

M30025M is a p1 RK

M27291M is a p3 TO.

M28005M-M29617M-M28818M is a Watford electric unit.

M30098M and M30078M are p3 RK.

M247M is a p3 RC.

 

Note all the pre-nationalisation coaches are for dining, clearly they must be included within the mk1 sets.

 

 

We can make a little better sense of it then:

 

M53234 - non-gangway BS - M46076 - non-gangway S,  - clearly something local 

 

M80677 - BG, M15924 - CK, M21025 - BCK, M13060 - FK, E80792 BG (originally ER), M4366 - SO, M24105, M34399 - BSK, M1546 - KB, M35049 - BSK, M24679 - SK, M24678 - SK, M4424 TSO, M3735 - SO, M30025M - P1 RK,  M27291M P3 TO,   we seem to have a restaurant triple set at the front of a train ?

 

KB M1546 really shouldn't be in this list - Parkin  says it was the prototype KB, delivered in 1956 and used by the LMR  between St Pancras and Manchester Central......  It has somehow strayed onto the Western Division of the LMR. I'm wondering if it's sandwiched between 2 separate trains, ended by BSKs

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On 28/02/2021 at 15:47, Ravenser said:

wonder if we have a 12 coach express, with a portion of 3 coaches detached somewhere - Leeds maybe, with a Bradford portion on an Anglo-Sottish train??

 

Generally speaking West Yorkshire bound trains from St Pancreas terminated at Bradford Forster Square rather than Leeds. This is because the space for storing the rolling stock was greater at Bradford and with the 2 cities not being far apart it was easy enough to shove the express behind a 4MT tank for the last 15 Miles or so to Bradford.

 

Bizarrely at least one train from St Pancreas destined for Bradford Forster Square also had a portion which detached and went to Bradford Exchange station.

 

The reason behind this was so that people who wanted to go to Bradford would be able to get there faster than they would if they stayed with the train via Leeds.

 

I don't have my stuff to hand but I will have a look at the formation you've described and see if it matches up to something.

 

 

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On 27/02/2021 at 23:58, markw said:

M34099  BSK

M15382  CK

M3046    FO

M3768    TSO

M24844  SK

M24397  SK

M34469  BSK

 

On 27/02/2021 at 23:58, markw said:

M1111M    p3 FK       between the CK and FO of the third train ?

M30077M  p3 RK       between the FO and TSO of the third train ?

 

This is almost the formation of the 9:00 "The Waverley" it's missing two SKs however which should be marshalled with the other two.

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