C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

Good Morning,

 

That all makes a refreshing change from the norm I have to say. The impression I have is that most shows try to maximise the trade stand fees as much as possible, to keep admission as low as possible in order to attract as many as they can. One of the reasons (not the only one, if indeed not the main one) I stopped doing shows years ago is that it was/is more profitable to concentrate on the internet side of things, most of the time I was lucky if I broke even. It was only the advantage of nuturing future business that was the real positive aspect from a trade point of view.

 

Having said that I still find it a strange choice on Phil's part. C&L is mainly involved with Bullhead track and whilst some Modern era (I use that term loosely) will find  Bullhead meets their needs, many if not most will be more interested in at least some Flatbottom.  In previous times C&L also sold Peco products but not now, so now he has no 7mm scale Code 143 or pandrols. In 4mm, scale no pandrols (I know he does clips but they are prototypically quite old), I understand the code 82 has a narrower head than it should be, and no code 83 rail.

 

So why? Still seems a strange choice.

 

 

C&L sells ST base plates for code 82 flatbottom track as well as code 75 bullhead parts. Both are compatible for certain periods of modern image modelling

[sulzer27jd]

If anyone is desperate for 4mm flatbottom rail I have a pack here, that was miss-labeled as bullhead and will not be used. DM me.

 

John

[martin_wynne]

I suspect Phil goes to shows because he likes going to shows. That was his original involvement in C&L. A one-man trader is more than a business, it's a lifestyle.

 

Mike Sharman Wheels had a viable business for years based on "shows only". It does reduce an awful lot of paperwork and record-keeping. When the sun shines in the week you can go out for the day, instead of dreading the arrival of the post for instant attention.

 

Those who can't get to a show can always give their shopping-list to a friend.

 

Martin.

[Horsetan]

..... A one-man trader is more than a business, it's a lifestyle.....

 

I somehow can't see this type of thing being promoted in the newspaper weekend supplements.....

[Stephen Freeman]

Martin, I don't think anybody does expect instant attention or at least they shouldn't given the fact of being a one man business, or at least they shouldn't. Mike Sharman did go over to Mail Order but it was a different world then. I don't think many get orders by post these days.

I suspect Phil goes to shows because he likes going to shows. That was his original involvement in C&L. A one-man trader is more than a business, it's a lifestyle.

 

Mike Sharman Wheels had a viable business for years based on "shows only". It does reduce an awful lot of paperwork and record-keeping. When the sun shines in the week you can go out for the day, instead of dreading the arrival of the post for instant attention.

 

Those who can't get to a show can always give their shopping-list to a friend.

 

Martin.

 

 

[hayfield]

I somehow can't see this type of thing being promoted in the newspaper weekend supplements.....

 

There are a group of traders who go to the same shows and as Martin says its a way of life but also an important source of income, just because some do not go to shows or the shows which are attended are too far away, doesn't mean a trader has to stop this activity.

 

Its an important revenue stream for both the trader and the shows themselves, quite often the presence of how many specialist traders entices a greater attendance. As Martin said quite often customers are buying for friends as well as themselves. Also the shows themselves are the lifeblood of the hobby (re)introducing people to the hobby

 

As I said I have done 3 shows in 4 weeks, and have seen quite a lot of the same faces at all 3 shows.  Phil has had some problems, he will be the first to own up to having a steep learning curve taking the business over. BUT Phil was the only person willing to put his hand in his pocket to keep C&L going, without Phil the range would be dead. He is also spending money replacing worn out tools etc

[martin_wynne]

Mike Sharman did go over to Mail Order but it was a different world then. I don't think many get orders by post these days.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

If it's your business the world is what you choose it to be. See: http://www.markits.com/ordering.html

 

It's then up to others to decide whether to be a customer or not.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[chris p bacon]

It's obvious why the previous owner didn't bother with forums, everyones an expert at running someone else's business.

 

If it doesn't work for Phil then no doubt the business will be for sale at a knock down price, in which case there'll be lots of takers for it who can run it better than he. 

[martin_wynne]

It's obvious why the previous owner didn't bother with forums, everyones an expert at running someone else's business.

 

If poor service is received I think it is legitimate to post the facts, as information for other intending customers.

 

When folks are saying that they paid several weeks/months ago, do they mean that the cheque has actually been cashed, or funds taken from the card? Just providing the means of payment in readiness for when the goods are despatched is not the same as actually paying.

 

Martin.

[Ravenser]

Good Morning,

 

That all makes a refreshing change from the norm I have to say. The impression I have is that most shows try to maximise the trade stand fees as much as possible, to keep admission as low as possible in order to attract as many as they can. One of the reasons (not the only one, if indeed not the main one) I stopped doing shows years ago is that it was/is more profitable to concentrate on the internet side of things, most of the time I was lucky if I broke even. It was only the advantage of nuturing future business that was the real positive aspect from a trade point of view.

 

Having said that I still find it a strange choice on Phil's part. C&L is mainly involved with Bullhead track and whilst some Modern era (I use that term loosely) will find  Bullhead meets their needs, many if not most will be more interested in at least some Flatbottom.  In previous times C&L also sold Peco products but not now, so now he has no 7mm scale Code 143 or pandrols. In 4mm, scale no pandrols (I know he does clips but they are prototypically quite old), I understand the code 82 has a narrower head than it should be, and no code 83 rail.

 

So why? Still seems a strange choice.

 

The practical reality is that the modern image modeller isn't perfectly served, even in 4mm. Under a previous owner of C+L some years ago, several people active in DEMU in EM/P4 approached him, pointing out that the concrete sleeper offered was a very early GWR type and not really right for most modern track. They were told quite bluntly that the then owner was not interested in the post-steam market and would not be making any products for it.

 

Even 15 years  ago your options for 4mm concrete sleepered plain track were vanishingly small once you rejected Peco Code 100  - the afore-mentioned C+L sleeper and Peco Individualay , which hardly anyone knew still existed and wasn't advertised, let alone stocked anywhere. Very few steam-age finescale modellers would choose to handbuild plain track sleeper by sleeper- and certainly not your own client base.

 

(It took a long long time to get Peco code 75 concrete sleeper - fortunately the product is substantially closer to British sleepering than the code 100 equivalent)

 

My own layout (set mid 80s/just after 2000) has Marcway and SMP track. Flatbottom might be more authentic - though station limits at a terminus were often still bullhead - but it can't readily be done , and what I have is vastly better than Peco code75. A degree of compromise will have to be accepted in EM/P4 too : EM with the wrong type of pandrols will be far far better than Peco code 75 OO. Scrupulous perfection isn't attainable - a dramatic improvement on traditional Peco Streamline certainly is

 

Peco track is readily available in Gauge O, and Gauge O is a small fraction of the 4mm market . I'd suggest the numbers willing to build 7mm scale track may be  lower than those modelling post 1965 and working in EM/P4 . If you are already doing Telford and Reading to serve the 7mm market (which I assume C+L do) why do a third 7mm specialist show instead of the sole specialist D+E show? Isn't one bite at the 4mm (and 7mm) D+E finescale market worth more than the third or fourth bite at 7mm??

 

Quite apart from any question of C+L's organisation, I'm concerned at the repeated suggestion that a trader should not try to support (predominantly 4mm) D+E modelers and should focus very heavily on 7mm steam instead

 

Where are 4mm and 7mm finescale D+E modellers expected to get their trackwork if not from C+L.? Put another way, which supplier of trackwork components would be a better fit in Burton Town Hall this weekend than C+L?

[2ManySpams]

Having been at DEMU today helping out (even though I'm a steam era modeller) I thought C&L were a good accompanyment to the mix of traders present. I was quite obvious that not everyone attending is a D&E modeller (I've been before just to buy stocks of paint, solvent and plasticard etc) and there were a number of families there too who it looked like we're just looking at the trains.

 

Although targeted at D&E, this definitely does not seem to be to the exclusion of others. It's also worth noting that many of the traders sold non D&E items (steam era books and stock). Those non D&E items were selling, so assumptions that only D&E folk are buying stuff don't seem valid.

 

In my view it's a good show, handy for where I live, that attracts a good range of traders which just happens to have no steam layouts. The last point alone would not put me off going, good layouts are good layouts.

[hayfield]

If poor service is received I think it is legitimate to post the facts, as information for other intending customers.

 

When folks are saying that they paid several weeks/months ago, do they mean that the cheque has actually been cashed, or funds taken from the card? Just providing the means of payment in readiness for when the goods are despatched is not the same as actually paying.

 

Martin.

 

 

At one point there was a confusion caused by the order system Phil set up, which was to order online and phone and pay, this was further compounded by the previous owner turning off part of the software which impacted on emails not being received.

 

I thought the system Phil initially set up would cause issues, which it did. The issues over the missing emails was not of Phils making and once identified was rectified. I do agree when you receive a payment, action needs to be taken, a lesson I believe has been learnt. Hopefully with the action Phil has recently taken all outstanding orders will be completed soon.

 

As for how Phil runs his business (attending shows) is up to Phil, there is a large customer base which prefers to buy in person at shows and needs to be accomodated. If a modeller decides not to attend shows that's fine, its a free world. But do not expect/demand others to change the way they wish to trade just to suite your preferences.

 

Lets face it, we all had the chance to bid for the business. It was common knowledge the business was for sale. Phil was the only person who put his money on the table. !!!  

[PeteScR]

Good Morning,

 

 

Having said that I still find it a strange choice on Phil's part. C&L is mainly involved with Bullhead track and whilst some Modern era (I use that term loosely) will find  Bullhead meets their needs, many if not most will be more interested in at least some Flatbottom.  In previous times C&L also sold Peco products but not now, so now he has no 7mm scale Code 143 or pandrols. In 4mm, scale no pandrols (I know he does clips but they are prototypically quite old), I understand the code 82 has a narrower head than it should be, and no code 83 rail.

 

So why? Still seems a strange choice.

 

This weekend I was working on a trade stand opposite C&L and they looked like they were doing well, especially on the Saturday as you would expect. DEMU covers the era 1955-Present Day so there are plenty opportunities for bullhead opperation. Many yards and stabling points still have bullhead in place.

 

Pete

[PeteScR]

 

Where are 4mm and 7mm finescale D+E modellers expected to get their trackwork if not from C+L.? Put another way, which supplier of trackwork components would be a better fit in Burton Town Hall this weekend than C+L?

 

Now that Exactoscale have taken the range back "in-house" things look promising for those of us who model our own track in P4. There is also the excellent range of Colin Craig flat-bottom track components and kits. Colin was at DEMU Showcase both days this weekend but not as a trader, he spent most of his time sharing his extensive knowledge of trackwork.

 

On another point, I spoke with two traders in particular over the weekend who didn't expect to make a lot of money out of the event, but they just liked being there and wanted to be seen to be supporting D&E. The attraction of the wide range of real ale pubs and curry houses in Burton was also an attraction underlining the social aspects of this event.

 

Pete

[Kelly]

As others have pointed out, diesel and electric modelling covers a now vast era and variety. Bullhead and flat-bottom track can both be seen in some locations together depending on the usage of the line (as others have stated, mainly sidings and depots). Obviously someone modelling the mid 1960s onwards in terms of a high speed line would most likely need flat bottom rather than bullhead, but as with these sorts of things, reference to s given period and prototype location is vital.

 

In regards DEMU showcase, it should be remembered it is still effectively a society show, primarily for the membership, but with non members being very much welcome. It has grown over the years to be quite popular with both members and non members alike, and like Phil says, is popular with the curry and beer fans (curry Saturday night was lovely).

 

Next year the show moves to a new bigger venue, so it will hopefully continue to grow and prosper.

[hayfield]

Now that Exactoscale have taken the range back "in-house" things look promising for those of us who model our own track in P4. 

 

 

 

Pete

 

The problem being, who will distribute the range, I am guessing the owner will not and if it is one of the societies unless they open up their distribution network to the public there will be supply issues and will not satisfy those who like buying at shows. 

[Great Western]

I knew it was to good to be true, the delivery today is from Hattons, not my long awaited 6 weeks and counting one from C&L.

 

I’ve tried to call them at least six times this morning with not success - so I’ve sent them an email.

 

I think I’m being reasonable, considering.

 

I’m getting throughly hacked off now, if he can’t cope single manned hire some help - if the business can’t support double manning then maybe think about the future. Don’t however retain people’s money with zero communication, even a email to say sorry and a eta would resolve 99% of peoples issues.

 

Just to add I paid in full on May 2nd, order placed May 1st, my money is in his account as we speak but I have no product to show for my trust.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Great Western

[purplepiepete]

I knew it was to good to be true, the delivery today is from Hattons, not my long awaited 6 weeks and counting one from C&L.

 

I’ve tried to call them at least six times this morning with not success - so I’ve sent them an email.

 

I think I’m being reasonable, considering.

 

I’m getting throughly hacked off now, if he can’t cope single manned hire some help - if the business can’t support double manning then maybe think about the future. Don’t however retain people’s money with zero communication, even a email to say sorry and a eta would resolve 99% of peoples issues.

 

Just to add I paid in full on May 2nd, order placed May 1st, my money is in his account as we speak but I have no product to show for my trust.

 

You are wasting your time emailing as he doesn't respond. My orders have typically taken 6 - 8 weeks - whether this is due to stock problems, lack of time due to other commitments (i.e shows), supplier issues or just general poor business practise is unclear. The issue of communication has been raised a number of times and personally I think its inexcusable given the ease of providing this in a tech powered world, even if you are a one man business.

 

Phil needs to be careful as I think that The Distance Selling Regulations require acknowledgment of pre-paid on-line orders and time bound delivery details.

[polybear]

^{Hiring in help causes all sorts of legal issues; perhaps suspending new orders (with an appropriate web message until such time as the backlog is cleared) may help Phil, and help stop the flack}

Edited June 4, 2018 by polybear

[Re6/6]

^{......perhaps suspending new orders (with an appropriate web message until such time as the backlog is cleared) may help Phil, and help stop the flack}

...as has happened with Ultrascale with personal matters necessarily having to take precedence.

[Mike Bellamy]

 

I’ve tried to call them at least six times this morning with not success - so I’ve sent them an email.

 

 

 

 

Phil was trading at the DEMU show at the weekend and so at the times you called this morning, he could have been travelling home, unloading the van, or still fast asleep after a late night if he went home directly after the show. Also note that he's a sole trader, there is no 'them' just him (and as mentioned above that could be part of the problem)

.

[Torper]

...as has happened with Ultrascale with personal matters necessarily having to take precedence.

 

And they, of course, had a nine month waiting list (which seemed by and large to have been accepted by their customers).

 

DT

[Gt.Shefford]

You are wasting your time emailing as he doesn't respond. My orders have typically taken 6 - 8 weeks - whether this is due to stock problems, lack of time due to other commitments (i.e shows), supplier issues or just general poor business practise is unclear. The issue of communication has been raised a number of times and personally I think its inexcusable given the ease of providing this in a tech powered world, even if you are a one man business.

 

Phil needs to be careful as I think that The Distance Selling Regulations require acknowledgment of pre-paid on-line orders and time bound delivery details.

 

Distance Selling Regulations no longer apply in the UK as they were superseded by 'The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013'  

 

Part 5 regulation 42 covers the delivery of goods 

 

Time for delivery of goods

42.—(1) This regulation applies to any sales contract.

(2) Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer.

(3) Unless there is an agreed time or period, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods—

(a)without undue delay, and

(b)in any event, not more than 30 days after the day on which the contract is entered into.

(4) In this regulation—

(a)an “agreed” time or period means a time or period agreed by the trader and the consumer for delivery of the goods, but

(b)if there is an obligation to deliver the goods at the time the contract is entered into, that time counts as the “agreed” time.

(5) Paragraphs (6) and (7) apply if the trader does not deliver the goods in accordance with paragraph (3) or at the agreed time or within the agreed period.

(6) If the circumstances are that—

(a)the trader has refused to deliver the goods,

(b)delivery of the goods at the agreed time or within the agreed period is essential taking into account all the relevant circumstances at the time the contract was entered into, or

©the consumer told the trader before the contract was entered into that delivery in accordance with paragraph (3), or at the agreed time or within the agreed period, was essential,

then the consumer may treat the contract as at an end.

(7) In any other circumstances, the consumer may specify a period that is appropriate in the circumstances and require the trader to deliver the goods before the end of that period.

(8) If the consumer specifies a period under paragraph (7) but the goods are not delivered within that period, then the consumer may treat the contract as at an end.

(9) If the consumer treats the contract as at an end under paragraph (6) or (8), the trader must without undue delay reimburse all payments made under the contract.

(10) If paragraph (6) or (8) applies but the consumer does not treat the contract as at an end—

(a)that does not prevent the consumer from cancelling the order for any of the goods or rejecting goods that have been delivered, and

(b)the trader must without undue delay reimburse all payments made under the contract in respect of any goods for which the consumer cancels the order or which the consumer rejects.

(11) If any of the goods form a commercial unit, then the consumer cannot reject or cancel the order for some of those goods without also rejecting or cancelling the order for the rest of them.

(12) A unit is a “commercial unit” if division of the unit would materially impair the value of the goods or the character of the unit.

 

(13) This regulation does not prevent the consumer seeking other remedies where it is open to the consumer to do so. 

 

 

Jonathan

Edited June 5, 2018 by Gt.Shefford

[Re6/6]

Perhaps we should ease up with some of this negativity. Phil (who l don't know from Adam) is obviously trying his best as a 'one man band'.

 

If some of the pressure on this thread were to make him decide that enough is enough, as has already happened with Falcon Brass due to constant negative postings on here, what would we do if the sole source of supply of track parts was to disappear.

 

Just a thought.

[Arthur38]

Perhaps we should ease up with some of this negativity. Phil (who l don't know from Adam) is obviously trying his best as a 'one man band'.

 

If some of the pressure on this thread were to make him decide that enough is enough, as has already happened with Falcon Brass due to constant negative postings on here, what would we do if the sole source of supply of track parts was to disappear.

 

Just a thought.

I for one expect a reasonable amount of time from payment for an order, which, by the way, was done by bank transfer for over £200, to receiving my items or, at the very least, be able to contact the company or be informed as to when I'm likely to receive my order instead of being left rather frustrated!