C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

It is unfair on C&L that non-C&L matters are discussed on this thread. I think there should be a separate thread for discussion on track and wheels standards.

 

David

 

These replies were following a question about a turnout C&L sold for 00 gauge with DOGA fine roller gauges. Martin and others were explaining the potential issues with the gauge and using standard 00 gauges with the common crossing supplied with the kit

[sharris]

there doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the C&L instructions.  Is it essential to form the curved stockrail in this way

 

 

Interestingly I was looking through Iain Rice's Approach to Finescale Track book last night. Although he mentions the stock-rail set and has a sketch of one in relation to joggles of the straight stock rail, he never actually gets into the technicalities of it and how to produce it in trackwork. On his reproduction of an A5 turnout template from the Scalefour Society I couldn't see any indication of where to bend the set or start the curve. I don't know if they've been updated since (the book is from 1991). He seemed more interested in bending the sets correctly towards the end of check and wing rails. 

 

Did they not bother with stock-rail sets in the 90s? I suspect he may be following his other sketch of switch rail planing described as 'pragmatic' where the planing is longer and shallower than it should be which might reduce the effect of have a pure curve over a set + straight section. 

[hayfield]

Interestingly I was looking through Iain Rice's Approach to Finescale Track book last night. Although he mentions the stock-rail set and has a sketch of one in relation to joggles of the straight stock rail, he never actually gets into the technicalities of it and how to produce it in trackwork. On his reproduction of an A5 turnout template from the Scalefour Society I couldn't see any indication of where to bend the set or start the curve. I don't know if they've been updated since (the book is from 1991). He seemed more interested in bending the sets correctly towards the end of check and wing rails. 

 

Did they not bother with stock-rail sets in the 90s? I suspect he may be following his other sketch of switch rail planing described as 'pragmatic' where the planing is longer and shallower than it should be which might reduce the effect of have a pure curve over a set + straight section.

 

 

REPLY

 

 

The simple answer is to replicate the plan in Templot

[martin_wynne]

The simple answer is to replicate the plan in Templot

 

Thanks John.

 

So much has been published over the years which is misleading or just plain wrong. I don't know what we can do about that.

 

When I was manufacturing pointwork kits in the 1970s the set was pre-formed in the stock rail and clearly explained in the instructions. As far as I can recall everyone in the model track building community at that time was well aware of it and the need for it. Somewhere along the way since then a whole lot of collective knowledge and skills seems to have been lost.

 

Templot is free to use and will print any template you need. That leaves your original C&L template undamaged as a reference for the chair positions (although some of them are marked wrongly, the Exactoscale templates are better).

 

This is what Templot prints on an A-5 template. The positions of the set, the blade tips, the end of the planing (blade filing), and where to measure the stock gauge are all clearly marked:

 

 

 

Here again are some notes about making the set in the stock rail: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1

 

I see that has been on the web site for a full 10 years now.

 

Martin.

[Lecorbusier]

.....the only thing that now needs to be added is Martin's excellent diagram(s) on how to form the different required bends - particularly the set bend but not forgetting the wing rail bends ... worked for me.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[PenrithBeacon]

.....the only thing that now needs to be added is Martin's excellent diagram(s) on how to form the different required bends - particularly the set bend but not forgetting the wing rail bends ... worked for me.

Oh please!

[martin_wynne]

.....the only thing that now needs to be added is Martin's excellent diagram(s) on how to form the different required bends - particularly the set bend but not forgetting the wing rail bends ... worked for me.

 

Hi Tim,

 

Here you go. I've lost track of how many times I have posted this on various forums, including RMweb:

_____________________

 

Here's a simple idea which costs nothing and is a good way to make precise symmetrical bends in bullhead rail. It needs a bit of practice to know how hard to tap! 

 

 

 

Hopefully the diagrams are self-explanatory. Just two bits of rail about an inch long laid flat side by side with a gap between. The smaller the gap, so the harder you need to press/hit, but the more precisely located will be the bend. Make sure the rail is exactly square across them before making the bend -- a sheet of graph paper underneath helps.

 

Set bends should be sharply located at the required position.

 

Knuckle bends are best made as a radiused bend rather than a sharp one. Templot templates show the extent of the bend and its mid point:

 

 

Possibly I need to make those small marks a bit more prominent.

regards,

 

Martin.

[YesTor]

Hi Al,

 

It is indeed an essential feature of construction, corresponding to the prototype. Without a "set" in the diverging stock rail, it is impossible to create a switch (a set of points) with correct gauge through both roads.

 

You can see how the set in the stock rail allows the switch blade to lie against it with the running edge in correct alignment.

 

If you are saying the C&L instructions make no mention of this, I'm astonished. You do wonder if C&L actually want their customers to make a success of their first turnout, and become regular customers.

 

If the C&L template doesn't show the position of the set, you may want to discard it and print one using Templot (which does).

 

Hi Martin

 

Okay, firstly a HUGE and sincere thank you for taking the time to explain things so clearly.  I already sense this information will prove to be absolutely essential.  On looking at your notes and photos it does indeed make perfect sense as to the need for the 'set' in the curved stock rail.  I guess it's one of those things that I have passively noticed a million times on the prototype but never quite given much thought to... until now that is. 

 

With regard to the C&L kit - and what I feel I must highlight in fairness to C&L - is that on looking at the C&L template again today it does in fact illustrate the 'straight' section of the curved stock rail (labelled as "straight planing").  However, unfortunately I cannot see any reference within the actual instructions themselves as to what this "straight planing" is supposed to be and/or how to achieve it.  Interesting.  Anyhow, as the saying goes, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed", so now with the relevant information I will know what I aiming to replicate. 

 

I will certainly take a look at downloading a template via Templot and comparing and maybe working out which is easiest to work from.  I will say that I haven't used Templot before and do find the prospect perhaps slightly daunting, but I am certainly willing to give it a go.

 

The check gauge is so important that some track-builders set the check rails from the V-crossing first, before adding the stock rails. Where the check gauge won't fit over the nose of the vee, it is rotated so that the flat part rests on top of the vee, and the gauge is then held against the side of the vee.

 

You can see that the check gauges and track gauges are used separately without getting in the way of each other. If the V-crossing is in sharply curved track, some gauge-widening can be allowed on the running rail, without affecting the check rail which must remain in its normal position from the opposite rail.

 

The DCC Concepts multi-slot 00-SF gauges have combined check gauges and track gauges. This makes them 10 times more troublesome to use. If there is a problem with one of the rails, it is all but impossible to find out which one using such multi-slot gauges.

 

Again, the above makes perfect sense and thank you for explaining with such clarity.  I can indeed see exactly why it might be preferable to set the check rail prior to laying the stock rail, in fact more difficult to actually see why not.  And I can certainly now see why the gauges are as they are.  Excellent.

 

 

Here's a simple idea which costs nothing and is a good way to make precise symmetrical bends in bullhead rail. It needs a bit of practice to know how hard to tap! 

 

May I ask if these diagrams are available publicly?   I'm guessing perhaps Templot forum?  If so it looks as though I may need to sign-up! 

 

thanks

Al

[martin_wynne]

May I ask if these diagrams are available publicly?   I'm guessing perhaps Templot forum?  If so it looks as though I may need to sign-up! 

 

Hi Al,

 

I'm not too clear what you are asking there? Are you not seeing the diagrams in my posts above?

 

Everything on the Templot web site and the Templot Club forum is visible publicly. The only requirement, like most forums, is that you must be logged in as a member in order to make a post. You also need Templot installed on your computer (it's free) in order to watch some of the help videos.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Blandford1969]

As someone moving from SMP to C&L and Templot I just want to say thank you for Martin to be willing to 'go back over things' again as it has been really helpful in getting an understanding to want to take the plunge

[Junctionmad]

The set is very important , I built my first set of copperclad points when i was 16 and I didn’t incorporate the set , it took me years to discover why I couldn’t gauge the switch blades correctly

[YesTor]

I'm not too clear what you are asking there? Are you not seeing the diagrams in my posts above?

 

Everything on the Templot web site and the Templot Club forum is visible publicly.

 

Ahaa, yes, I can see all of the diagrams, I was just curious if they had perhaps already been published elsewhere, as if so I'll definitely have a look and maybe there will be other useful info I can read through.  Anyway, thank you and I will definitely sign-up to the Templot forum shortly. 

[hayfield]

The set is very important , I built my first set of copperclad points when i was 16 and I didn’t incorporate the set , it took me years to discover why I couldn’t gauge the switch blades correctly

I think the problems is the fact that C&L has changed hands so often, the designer of the system (who was also the draughsman) parted from the company. Plus recent owners only knowing the basics of track building, though Peter did make a set of comprehensive instructions

 

Having said this the SMP instructions were far worse. The Exactoscale instructions are designed to complement the P4 kit

 

Another way to fix the set is to file a flat on one end of a roller gauge and glue the section (2” length ) after the switch rail has been fitted , using the roller gauge against the switch rail at the set point, the flattened end sits over both the switch and stock rails. This does depend on the switch rail being formed correctly

Edited September 12, 2018 by hayfield

[martin_wynne]

I think the problems is the fact that C&L has changed hands so often, the designer of the system (who was also the draughtsman) parted from the company. Plus recent owners only knowing the basics of track building.

 

Hi John,

 

Perhaps you could suggest to Phil that he gets this sorted out? His business surely depends on customers making a success of their first turnout, and coming back for more trackbuilding stuff?

 

 

Another way to fix the set is to file a flat on one end of a roller gauge and glue the stock rail section (2” length ) after the switch rail has been fitted, using the roller gauge against the switch rail at the marked point, the flattened end sits over both the switch and stock rails. This does depend on the switch blade being formed correctly.

 

You don't necessarily need a finished switch blade. The stock gauge position is marked on the template. You can use a scrap bit of rail like this to position the stock rail at that position.

 

 

File a clean end on the scrap rail to make an accurate location against the stock rail.

 

If you are using a template which doesn't have the stock gauge position marked, you can add a mark by measuring from the blade tips:

 

For "A" switches, 22mm from the tips (in 00/EM/P4).

 

For "B" switches, 29.3mm from the tips (in 00/EM/P4).

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Hi John,

 

Perhaps you could suggest to Phil that he gets this sorted out? His business surely depends on customers making a success of their first turnout, and coming back for more trackbuilding stuff?

 

 

 

Martin.

 

I will give it a go at Scaleforum, somehow I think it will end up in the to do file

[sharris]

This may seem a silly question, but is it actually possible to do a truely straight section there with the C&L system?

 

With ply & rivet construction or copper clad I can see it working perfectly because the rail can be firmly fixed in a straight line by soldering to the rivets or copper.

 

With the pure C&L system we're dealing with track that is a bit springy by nature so the end of the curved stock rail where it meets the straight may naturally want to continue the curve, slightly more gently. As has been mentioned before regarding undergauging, the chairs have a bit of give in them, and of course in the region we are discussing only give support on the outside of the track anyway, possibly allowing the springiness of the rail to pull the straight into a bit of curve. Is this an issue, or am I imagining a problem that doesn't really exist?

[Lecorbusier]

This may seem a silly question, but is it actually possible to do a truely straight section there with the C&L system?

 

With ply & rivet construction or copper clad I can see it working perfectly because the rail can be firmly fixed in a straight line by soldering to the rivets or copper.

 

With the pure C&L system we're dealing with track that is a bit springy by nature so the end of the curved stock rail where it meets the straight may naturally want to continue the curve, slightly more gently. As has been mentioned before regarding undergauging, the chairs have a bit of give in them, and of course in the region we are discussing only give support on the outside of the track anyway, possibly allowing the springiness of the rail to pull the straight into a bit of curve. Is this an issue, or am I imagining a problem that doesn't really exist?

I pre bend all my rail to match the templot print out and set it up loose prior to fixing. As far as I can make out it retains its profile including the straight portion prior to any bonding or fixing down. The fixing for me is about maintaining the correct gauge etc rather than maintaining curve or straights.

[hayfield]

With turnouts no problem especially where there are 4 or more chairs on a timber. A straight edge when laying the track may assist

 

As for plain track, again use a straight edge as you would with any flexitrack

 

In both cases when building these items a smear of solvent between the rail and chairs will make a temporary bond whilst laying the track

[sharris]

I pre bend all my rail to match the templot print out and set it up loose prior to fixing. As far as I can make out it retains its profile including the straight portion prior to any bonding or fixing down. The fixing for me is about maintaining the correct gauge etc rather than maintaining curve or straights.

Thanks - I'd forgotten about pre-forming the curves.

[martin_wynne]

One advantage of using a Templot template is that you easily print additional copies. For example one without the timbers to use as a guide in pre-forming the rails.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

One advantage of using a Templot template is that you easily print additional copies. For example one without the timbers to use as a guide in pre-forming the rails.

 

Martin.

Additional templates ( plans ) or part templates are always usefull as are plans with ballast edges

[Flymo748]

As this is of relevance to track-building, I'm also posting this here...

 

The Scalefour Society is delighted to announce that Exactoscale will be a trader at this year's Scaleforum show on 22 & 23 September.

 

Exactoscale Products is not a company but an informal cooperative group of modellers who will supply components to the modelling community.  At Scaleforum, they have been given a small space to launch Exactoscale Products and explain their future plans.

 

Exactoscale will make sales (cash only) of P4 carriage and wagon wheels together with a limited selection of items from the range of track products.

 

Exactoscale do not envisage normally having an Exactoscale Products stand at exhibitions.so this represents a possible one-off opportunity to acquire material and have a conversation about the range.

 

After Scaleforum, wheels will be available from early October from Scalefour and EMGS Stores only,  Timescales for bearings and back-to-back gauges are not yet clear but these
are an important part of the range and will be made  available as soon as possible. 4mm scale products will be available from the Scalefour and EMGS stores and 7mm
scale products will be available from the Scale 7 Group stores.

Updates on the process of getting Exactoscale Products up and running will be posted on the Scalefour Society’s webforum and, in the next Scalefour News and EMGS Newsletter.

 

Yet another reason to visit Scaleforum.  We look forward to seeing you there!

 

https://www.scalefour.org/scaleforum/2018/

 

Cheers

Paul Willis

Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman

[hayfield]

Paul

 

Far more relevant being on its own page. And I am a modeller who uses Exactoscale products

 

In the past prior to Exactoscale using C&L as a distributor there was good relations between goth companies, in fact a certain amount of cooperation between them

 

I do hope this is not a start of anything different

[sharris]

In the past prior to Exactoscale using C&L as a distributor there was good relations between goth companies

 

I always thought Phil Reid and Andrew Jukes looked good in black eyeliner. 

 

 

 

I do hope this is not a start of anything different

 

Apparently the S4 exhibition committee have banned trebuchets and mud pies from this year's Scaleforum. 

[Junctionmad]

 

 

Apparently the S4 exhibition committee have banned trebuchets and mud pies from this year's Scaleforum. 

perhaps they could organise a "cook-off " between the products , where you for example throw plastic 4 bolt chairs at each other  until one side quits. !!!