C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

C&L web site updated today, referring to cyber attack:

 

 http://www.finescale.org.uk/

 

Martin.

 

 

This message (without the date) has been up for some time, trouble is most customers ignore the Home page and go straight to the order section. Phil was saying that the new website when found by a search engine, it would direct all searches to the home page, perhaps this is now being activated in readiness of the new site

 

Last year it was widely reported there was an issue with the site, Phil was unable to alter things through the administration section and (as as has been stated several times) since then there has been issues with the site, mainly tieing up orders to names, thus the request to phone after ordering to confirm details. I think Cyber attack whilst may be true, its probably down to the software of the old program becoming corrupted and the new IT consultant being unable to gain access to correct the issue

 

I was with Phil last weekend and he told me that most of the work on the new site has been done, just postage rates were needed to be added to allow the site to go live.

 

I reported this on one of the track building threads either Monday or Tuesday. Which you have replied to today

[martin_wynne]

This message (without the date) has been up for some time

 

I don't think so John. If you are seeing the same as yesterday, press CTRL+F5 in your browser to refresh the page.

 

There was no previous reference to issues going back 7 months to June 2018, and no reference to a cyber attack.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I don't think so John. If you are seeing the same as yesterday, press CTRL+F5 in your browser to refresh the page.

 

There was no previous reference to issues going back 7 months to June 2018, and no reference to a cyber attack.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Cyber Attack no, but look at the thread I replied to on monday, its the same message without the title !!

[martin_wynne]

Cyber Attack no

 

Hi John,

 

Well this new reference to a cyber attack is surely significant? Anyone who has entered personal details or credit-card info on the site since June 2018 surely has reason to be concerned? Or before then, if the old C&L database was transferred to the new owner.

 

Mentioning a cyber attack without saying what has been done about it, and what information was compromised, seems to be a bit reckless with customer confidence.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Stephen Freeman]

Your're all wrong!!! It was a Cyber Attach!!!

 

I doubt it somehow. I think these things are more likely to happen to sites on dedicated servers.

[Guy Rixon]

I doubt it somehow. I think these things are more likely to happen to sites on dedicated servers.

 

Why?

[Stephen Freeman]

Why?

Perhaps I should say that Websites that are inherently live. By that I mean that both the customer and company can interact with it in real time are likely to be less secure than a website that is maintained by such as cpanel, as you'd need the password authentication to do that. That information is not likely to be held or available online.

 

So a website that is more "open" runs a greater risk, especially if the server is "in-house".

 

I doubt very much that C&L site falls into the same category as say Twitter/Facebook etc. I've certainly never heard of any Model Railway related site attracting such unwelcome attention. .Of course there is always the unlikely possibility of some disgruntled customer etc.

[DavidH]

"PLEASE PROVIDED THE FOLLOWING:- YOUR ORDER NUMBER CONTACT NAME ADDRESS CONTACT PHONE NUMBER. SEND BY E MAIL [...]"

 

If the site had been compromised, I wouldn't have 100% faith in the email of contact details going to the person it ought to ...

[blueeighties]

Quite honestly, I have no confidence in anything at all that this bloke seems to be doing with C&L. So thankful I have friends who offer to collect from shows.

[gismorail]

i agree with the above comment and personally will only be purchasing from C&L direct at shows for reasons that have been discussed before , but I'm  extra cautious now having read the recent posts. I really want Phil to be successful in his venture but am not prepared to risk my internet security in the meantime . 

[Stephen Freeman]

Unfortunately for Phil, things have moved on a bit now and he no longer has the near-monopoly on scale track items in 4mm and 7mm scales, so I can't see him being as successful as he should have been.

[purplepiepete]

i agree with the above comment and personally will only be purchasing from C&L direct at shows for reasons that have been discussed before , but I'm  extra cautious now having read the recent posts. I really want Phil to be successful in his venture but am not prepared to risk my internet security in the meantime . 

 

Speaking as a former regular customer this is a real shame for Phil, but the website is a mess.

 

I don't know how much due diligence was paid when he bought the company but I suspect he has made the same mistake as many would make in buying a professional looking 'working' website which behind the curtain is a mess of

poor code, security holes and a maintenance nightmare.

 

Unless a fortune is spent on firewalls and continuous vulnerability monitoring it is, IMHO, just not worth the effort now. Clearly not my choice but if it was me I would ditch it all and create a basic front end store operation with links to Paypal and / or an eBay store, take the hit for commission charges, but

improve your customer service and reputation by 100%.

 

If Phil 'prefers' exhibitions and trade stands anyway, then why bother with all the hassle ?

[hayfield]

Speaking as a former regular customer this is a real shame for Phil, but the website is a mess.

 

I don't know how much due diligence was paid when he bought the company but I suspect he has made the same mistake as many would make in buying a professional looking 'working' website which behind the curtain is a mess of

poor code, security holes and a maintenance nightmare.

 

Unless a fortune is spent on firewalls and continuous vulnerability monitoring it is, IMHO, just not worth the effort now. Clearly not my choice but if it was me I would ditch it all and create a basic front end store operation with links to Paypal and / or an eBay store, take the hit for commission charges, but

improve your customer service and reputation by 100%.

 

If Phil 'prefers' exhibitions and trade stands anyway, then why bother with all the hassle ?

Pete

 

A new site is nearly up and running as previously reported

 

As for due diligence, the original buyer of the company pulled out at a late stage of the company being dissolved (end of lease) Phil took over at the last minuet 

 

The business had been run down over the past 2 years and I doubt if anyone had any ideas of where the business really was other than the way it was being run was loosing money

 

The hand over was done in a rush, Phil whilst experienced in running the small stand had no previous experience in running a retail business, plus the way the stock was delivered was all mixed up (some of the issues dating back to when C&L took over the distribution of Exactoscale

 

Most of us believe we could have made a better job in running the business without knowing the underlying issues. It has been a very steep learning curve for Phil and knowing a bit more than others on this site can actually see a real step forward over the past few months. I think most traders can see things they want to improve and Phil is no different. An example is both the introduction of a new 00 gauge track base and he is the first owner for some time to grasp the issues round track gauges

[Re6/6]

............ and create a basic front end store operation with links to Paypal and / or an eBay store, take the hit for commission charges, but

improve your customer service and reputation by 100%.

 

 

 

That would seem to me to be the best way ahead. OK there would be a commission hit. Are there not links to 'sellers shop' or something similar that would get confidence restored?

Edited January 21, 2019 by Re6/6

[blueeighties]

That would seem to me to be the best way ahead. OK there would be a commission hit. Are there not links to 'sellers shop' or something similar that would get confidence restored?

I think if that hasn't been sorted reasonably early on, it's not going to get sorted any time soon. Things just seem to go from bad to worse with the administration side of the business.

Edited January 21, 2019 by blueeighties

[purplepiepete]

That would seem to me to be the best way ahead. OK there would be a commission hit. Are there not links to 'sellers shop' or something similar that would get confidence restored?

 

Agreed, ebay is not everyones 'cup of tea' but one only has to look at the popularity of bidding on C&L (and Exactoscale) items to realise the potential.

 

However I shall watch developments on the new C&L website and wish Phil well in launching this at a difficult time.

 

Pete.

[hayfield]

I think I have said many times before, with my knowledge of track building, retail and customer service, there are certain things I would have done differently. I probably know a lot more about what is going on behind the scenes than anyone else on here and certain issues have been totally out of Phil's hands. There were things which happened to be own goals and others things which then had to be sorted out which caused further issues. Other things had to wait until finance allowed finance allowed

 

Unlike anyone else on this site I can look at things both from both inside and out, things are much better now and moving in the right direction. I also buy items from other traders and there are times when even some of who are perceived are the top traders things do go wrong. Don't forget this business was days from disappearing when Phil stepped in, the stock situation was far from what was expected and not ready to go. The business had been run down for two years and the stock apparently was just thrown into boxes and unmarked and mixed up.

 

Phil will agree that there were some who were not as well as he would have liked, but then in some cases things were not quite as reported. I was able to help some resolve their issues, others when I offered reported that the items had just arrived of Phil had just been on the phone etc. There seem to be a few folk on here who just want to comment negatively on the business without any actual experience just wanting to jump on a bandwagon. Which is a great pity

 

Things have got better, money is being invested in the company infrastructure and existing products. new products are being bought to the market. The past year is the first time the business has had investment for at least 3 if not more years, it takes time to turn things round especially for small cottage industry businesses. If you don't like the way its run then fine just go elsewhere. You will find that things are not much better elsewhere. One of the societies (who are distribution of similar products) took over a year to send me something despite repeated messages saying it would be posted to me soon (it was never out of stock), look at the delivery times of a competing range. Email only, orders dealt with one day a week may take up to a month to arrive, little or no availability at shows. 

 

Certainly under both Peter and Brian we had an excellent mail order service something at the moment will take a little bit longer with Phil as he has no staff and commitments to shows, the new website will solve lots of issues and speed things up. 

[blueeighties]

Morning John. I appreciate what you have said, and know you are in a position to see 'behind the scenes'. I also appreciate your help with the orders. I think one of the main issues is that we have gone from a business where communication and speed was absolutely tip top, to a business where those plus points pretty much ceased to exist. I also understand things from both a consumer and business point of view, you know I run my own. However, no matter how hectic, messy, or busy things get, emails are always answered, phone calls too. I have always seen customer communication as the number one priority, without them a business will eventually simply cease to exist. 

What has it been now, 2 years? Reputation counts for a lot, and it's a real shame thet the C&l name has gone from good products, good service, to good products very indifferent service. It's also fine to say if you don't like it go elsewhere, but in niche business that dosen't work. 9 times out of 10, if people start doing that, then the business and products will cease to exist. Looking at the bigger picture, as a business owner, I would also be keeping a close eye on what Peco, and societies like the EM gauge are getting up to. Once products move into a more mainstream production capability, with better availability and service, it won't take an age before the inevitable happens. 

As I say I understand it from all sides, but it's such a shame that most postings on this thread are now from disgruntled customers just wating to buy product, I don't think it's a case of folk being overly negative just for the sake of it.

[hayfield]

Lee

 

What you have said is quite correct, but very often taking something over is far more difficult than starting something new and growing organically. In this case the business had been run down for some time and the stock was packed up speedly. There have been problems, some quite big. But unless you have deep pockets it takes time to sort all of them out, I also agree that had things been done differently things might have been a lot easier for Phil and his customers

 

I have helped a few to resolve their issues, which is fine and I have no issues in doing it. But there has been cases where I offered my help and found there was no problem, or it had been resolved. I will leave it at that.

 

We are where we are, Phil has stuck with it and is now trying to grow/develop the business, the new website will hopefully solve the remaining issues and hopefully things will be better for all

 

We were so close to loosing these products

[blueeighties]

"We are where we are, Phil has stuck with it and is now trying to grow/develop the business, the new website will hopefully solve the remaining issues and hopefully things will be better for all

 

We were so close to loosing these products"

 

Amen to that. I wish Phil all the best for the future.

[Damo666]

There seem to be a few folk on here who just want to comment negatively on the business without any actual experience just wanting to jump on a bandwagon. Which is a great pity

[My emphasis above]

I've noticed that too, and it's a real shame. Just have a look at the Bargain Hunter's Mark 2 thread over the past 24 hours and the current discussions over one Malcolm of Swindon. This may turn out to be all doom and gloom, and on the other hand it might turn out to be all legit. Right now we just don't know. Where that matter stands at the moment there is little in the way of facts, any orders placed may be being processed, yet there is a lot of negativity based on assumptions.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Damo666

[hayfield]

No comparison between the two, Both Phil and C&L are known within the Model Railway fraternity. If this other one was a legit business it would have had existing customers and left a traceable footprint which could be checked out

[jonhall]

 I think one of the main issues is that we have gone from a business where communication and speed was absolutely tip top, to a business where those plus points pretty much ceased to exist.

 

The other point to remember is that C&L has gone from a business that had 4? staff and WAS LOOSING MONEY to a one man band. 

 

I totally understand the frustration of poor communication, but Phil presumably believes that working on fixing the problem is a better bet in the long term than sending out lots of messages saying what the problem is* and making no progress against actually fixing it. You might well do it differently if it was your business, as might I, but it isn't, its Phil's, and by all accounts the only reason any of its range is available is because he put his money where his mouth is and bought it - ultimately a business exists to put a roof over the owners head, and food on his table, if it can't do that the the consequences for him could be poverty and homelessness, the consequences to the rest of us are 'I can't build my new trainset'.

 

*but it isn't just one problem, it is a blizzard of them. I think we would all have hoped that things would start to become noticeably better, but, at least as far as I can tell, they aren't getting worse, so perhaps we will start to see the course of the supertanker start to change...

 

Jon

[Lacathedrale]

Maybe I'm taking too much of a laissez faire approach to this - but as a customer and client, anything the 'other side of the counter' it is absolutely not my problem.

 

I expect communication (i.e. answering phone calls, emails, etc.) in line with the standards of the day, I expect that if a shop represents itself as open for business, then it is open for business. I expect that if I pay someone for a product that a shop shows as available and in stock, that the products exist. I expect that if I am being charged for postage and packaging, that this is in line with the costs incurred.

 

Saying 'oh but X is much worse' is the most heinous kind of 'whatabout-ism', and a logical fallacy - I do not buy from X either. Similarly, explaining the internal woes of the proprietor certainly EXPLAINS the situation, in the way that explaining why someone with kleptomania steals - but it does not excuse the behaviour.

 

I have personally ordered over £400 of components across two orders with C&L and they were absolutely diabolical in every aspect: no communication, extortionate postage, huge delays as previously mentioned. You can't hand wave that away!

[chris p bacon]

Maybe I'm taking too much of a laissez faire approach to this - but as a customer and client, anything the 'other side of the counter' it is absolutely not my problem.

 

I expect communication (i.e. answering phone calls, emails, etc.) in line with the standards of the day, I expect that if a shop represents itself as open for business, then it is open for business. I expect that if I pay someone for a product that a shop shows as available and in stock, that the products exist. I expect that if I am being charged for postage and packaging, that this is in line with the costs incurred.

 

Saying 'oh but X is much worse' is the most heinous kind of 'whatabout-ism', and a logical fallacy - I do not buy from X either. Similarly, explaining the internal woes of the proprietor certainly EXPLAINS the situation, in the way that explaining why someone with kleptomania steals - but it does not excuse the behaviour.

 

I have personally ordered over £400 of components across two orders with C&L and they were absolutely diabolical in every aspect: no communication, extortionate postage, huge delays as previously mentioned. You can't hand wave that away!

 

 

If it was so bad why did you order a 2nd time .

 

I was asked recently if I'd sell some of the stuff I get produced for myself, although I'm in 2 minds the answer and attitude above is one reason why I wouldn't want to.