C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

Maybe I'm taking too much of a laissez faire approach to this - but as a customer and client, anything the 'other side of the counter' it is absolutely not my problem.

 

I expect communication (i.e. answering phone calls, emails, etc.) in line with the standards of the day, I expect that if a shop represents itself as open for business, then it is open for business. I expect that if I pay someone for a product that a shop shows as available and in stock, that the products exist. I expect that if I am being charged for postage and packaging, that this is in line with the costs incurred.

 

Saying 'oh but X is much worse' is the most heinous kind of 'whatabout-ism', and a logical fallacy - I do not buy from X either. Similarly, explaining the internal woes of the proprietor certainly EXPLAINS the situation, in the way that explaining why someone with kleptomania steals - but it does not excuse the behaviour.

 

I have personally ordered over £400 of components across two orders with C&L and they were absolutely diabolical in every aspect: no communication, extortionate postage, huge delays as previously mentioned. You can't hand wave that away!

 

Certainly on the face of it one would expect a better service, I too am having issues with a German manufacturer/retailer Tado since the 19th of November regarding something in the region of £200, Now this is a large well resourced company so poor communication is not just the province of C&L or cottage industry companies

 

I have no idea about your order, but on the occasions I have got involved usually there were issues which were easily resolved, I have also been at shows where problems were discussed so I have a bit of an insight in to things.

 

What we do know is that there was a couple major software problems with the old website. When the business was taken over the previous owner agreed to support the site for 12 mths, they also initially turned off one of the programs attached to the website which lost orders. The issue was eventually resolved and a notice was put up asking customers waiting for goods to call so any outstanding orders could be fulfilled

 

In June last year another issue raised its head with the software, in the end the IT specialist could not repair it and the job of selecting and commissioning a new website was undertaken. There has been a not on the website for some months asking customers to telephone once an order has been placed  for some months. I have also posted this requirement on this site several times.

 

This system temporary is not ideal, but its the one the owner feels comfortable with. thankfully the new site will be up and running soon and we can stop going round in circles. 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by hayfield

[Jol Wilkinson]

Maybe I'm taking too much of a laissez faire approach to this - but as a customer and client, anything the 'other side of the counter' it is absolutely not my problem.

 

I expect communication (i.e. answering phone calls, emails, etc.) in line with the standards of the day, I expect that if a shop represents itself as open for business, then it is open for business. I expect that if I pay someone for a product that a shop shows as available and in stock, that the products exist. I expect that if I am being charged for postage and packaging, that this is in line with the costs incurred.

 

Saying 'oh but X is much worse' is the most heinous kind of 'whatabout-ism', and a logical fallacy - I do not buy from X either. Similarly, explaining the internal woes of the proprietor certainly EXPLAINS the situation, in the way that explaining why someone with kleptomania steals - but it does not excuse the behaviour.

 

I have personally ordered over £400 of components across two orders with C&L and they were absolutely diabolical in every aspect: no communication, extortionate postage, huge delays as previously mentioned. You can't hand wave that away!

Not perhaps a answer that you would agree with, but if you want the product but prefer not to deal directly with C&L, it may be possible to source it elsewhere. For example, the EMGS Stores carry C&L track parts, etc. and, while annual membership costs £20:00, you would also get the very useful EMGS manual, etc. Of course they don't carry tje 00 specific items. Likewise the S4 Society stores. Both will supply "day memebers" at their shows. Of course you may not want to incur the extra cost.

 

None of this excuses poor service, bad customer communications, etc. but provides, to some degree, an alternative.

[hayfield]

If it was so bad why did you order a 2nd time .

 

I was asked recently if I'd sell some of the stuff I get produced for myself, although I'm in 2 minds the answer and attitude above is one reason why I wouldn't want to. 

 

 

Dave 

 

To be fair to the poster C&L were the only game in town for a few years, and one would expect a good level of communication from a business. As I said in an earlier reply I have an issue with a Society stores for 12+ months, but dealt with it without going into print.

 

Having said this it has been common knowledge there have been issues with the C&L website and Phil before committing scarce funds must be sure that the new one chosen will do the job and he can handle the administration. In the knowledge of the difficulties I have obtained items for my self and sorted out the odd issue for others, without too much effort. 

[hayfield]

Not perhaps a answer that you would agree with, but if you want the product but prefer not to deal directly with C&L, it may be possible to source it elsewhere. For example, the EMGS Stores carry C&L track parts, etc. and, while annual membership costs £20:00, you would also get the very useful EMGS manual, etc. Of course they don't carry tje 00 specific items. Likewise the S4 Society stores. Both will supply "day memebers" at their shows. Of course you may not want to incur the extra cost.

 

None of this excuses poor service, bad customer communications, etc. but provides, to some degree, an alternative.

 

Jol

 

Quite often as I am sure you have found a quick phone call sorts everything out

 

Yesterday I had a lovely chat with someone from the OAP department.  The call was answered quickly by a very pleasant and knowledgeable person. they quickly carried out my request and bent over backwards to be helpful.

 

Dealing with businesses should be the same and in the end Phil is a nice chap and seems to get on with most people when talking with them. Sometimes customers do go a bit over the top when its not necessary. On the other hand when its not resolving matters a quick blast usually does the job, but should be the last resort

[martin_wynne]

One of the frequent failings of cottage industries is the way they like to pretend they are large companies, when in fact it is one man part-time with the stock in a garden shed. This completely skews the expectations of the customer beyond what could reasonably be expected in the true circumstances.

 

For example, C&L calls itself "C & L Finescale Track Building Systems" and "Model Railway Track Building Specialists" -- note the plural.

 

If Phil called his business "Phil The Track Man" would there be so much angst when deliveries get held up or emails go astray?

 

John, if you have Phil's interest at heart please get him to delete the stuff on the web site which is simply wrong. It could cause legal problems in addition to misleading customers. For example after all these months this "About Us" page: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=4 still says "Our staff now consists of myself as the owner, greatly assisted by my part-timers Jenny and Roy, who have recently been joined by our first full time employee Luke. My wife Jo is employed elsewhere, but assists in the business by working at the majority of shows. Len is responsible for the designing, development and bringing into production of new products. Pete Llewellyn".

 

No matter what the problems with the web site, it should be possible at least to delete incorrect pages. Maybe not in the first few days after taking over, but by now, surely?

 

I don't know about anyone else, but before buying from a new web site I always go first to the "About Us" page to see what they say about themselves.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited January 24, 2019 by martin_wynne

[Lacathedrale]

If it was so bad why did you order a 2nd time .

 

I was asked recently if I'd sell some of the stuff I get produced for myself, although I'm in 2 minds the answer and attitude above is one reason why I wouldn't want to. 

 

Because as previously mentioned it was the only horse in town, and I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy against my better judgement.

 

Thank you for the tips about sourcing elsewhere (i.e. EMGS/S4S)

[Boris]

Well, seeing as C&L finescale apparently don't want my business at the moment, does anybody else know somewhere I can get packs of O gauge cosmetic fishplates?

[hayfield]

One of the frequent failings of cottage industries is the way they like to pretend they are large companies, when in fact it is one man part-time with the stock in a garden shed. This completely skews the expectations of the customer beyond what could reasonably be expected in the true circumstances.

 

For example, C&L calls itself "C & L Finescale Track Building Systems" and "Model Railway Track Building Specialists" -- note the plural.

 

If Phil called his business "Phil The Track Man" would there be so much angst when deliveries get held up or emails go astray?

 

John, if you have Phil's interest at heart please get him to delete the stuff on the web site which is simply wrong. It could cause legal problems in addition to misleading customers. For example after all these months this "About Us" page: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=4 still says "Our staff now consists of myself as the owner, greatly assisted by my part-timers Jenny and Roy, who have recently been joined by our first full time employee Luke. My wife Jo is employed elsewhere, but assists in the business by working at the majority of shows. Len is responsible for the designing, development and bringing into production of new products. Pete Llewellyn".

 

No matter what the problems with the web site, it should be possible at least to delete incorrect pages. Maybe not in the first few days after taking over, but by now, surely?

 

I don't know about anyone else, but before buying from a new web site I always go first to the "About Us" page to see what they say about themselves.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

I will have a word, I have no idea what the agreement was with Peter about the website, other than it lasted a year. Since then there have been issues with gaining full administration rights. However the new website according to Phil is nearly ready and the old one will be a thing of the past.

 

You are quite right about what cottage industries can and cannot do, and customer expectations should be managed accordingly. 

[Vistisen]

i agree with the above comment and personally will only be purchasing from C&L direct at shows for reasons that have been discussed before , but I'm  extra cautious now having read the recent posts. I really want Phil to be successful in his venture but am not prepared to risk my internet security in the meantime . 

Unless something new is offered as a payment service, there is no way you could have used a credit card online they are not excepted. If of course it is not the website, but another business computer then things could be different. Although I suspect there might be what we IT's pros call disorganised computer filing systems. " security by obscurity"  

[Boris]

Well, seeing as C&L finescale apparently don't want my business at the moment, does anybody else know somewhere I can get packs of O gauge cosmetic fishplates?

Sorted, bought from the states and still cheaper than C&L!

[davidmcc3]

Perhaps I should say that Websites that are inherently live. By that I mean that both the customer and company can interact with it in real time are likely to be less secure than a website that is maintained by such as cpanel, as you'd need the password authentication to do that. That information is not likely to be held or available online.

 

So a website that is more "open" runs a greater risk, especially if the server is "in-house".

 

I doubt very much that C&L site falls into the same category as say Twitter/Facebook etc. I've certainly never heard of any Model Railway related site attracting such unwelcome attention. .Of course there is always the unlikely possibility of some disgruntled customer etc.

 

Just a quick note about attacks on websites:

 

We've been building and managing websites for clients for over ten years, and there has always be a constant battle against malicious agents trying to break into websites.

 

They don't just do it to grab personal information ... most often it is to use the website to download malicious software to visitors' computers, provide links to scam sites, or to send emails and traffic onto the net.

 

We've found new sites starting to be attacked within a few days of a new domain being registered. Most of this activity is automated, coming from compromised computers around the world.

 

As an example of the level of attacks, we were recently notified (by the security software we install on all our websites) that there had been an increased rate of attack on one site we manage ... and when I looked, there there were up to 50 seperate attempts to break in every minute!

 

It's a constant battle. Part of the answer is chosing a good hosting company, not the cheapest.The rest is down to adding security software, updating programs as necessary, and watching traffic - I monitor ALL admin level logins and all lock-outs on all the sites we look after ... it's a time overhead, but we can't afford to not to do it for our clients.

 

The probelm with the C&L site was probably inadequate protection, no reporting, and lack of backups. This is something Phil inherited with the business, and meant he wasn't able to recover from the problem.

 

It underlines the importance of having good technical support when you rely on a website. A phone contact or support ticket system with your hosting company is seldom enough, especially with the larger companies.

[Re6/6]

Thank you David for that very enlightening post. Wow, it would seem to be a minefield out there! 

[purplepiepete]

Just a quick note about attacks on websites:

 

We've been building and managing websites for clients for over ten years, and there has always be a constant battle against malicious agents trying to break into websites.

 

They don't just do it to grab personal information ... most often it is to use the website to download malicious software to visitors' computers, provide links to scam sites, or to send emails and traffic onto the net.

 

We've found new sites starting to be attacked within a few days of a new domain being registered. Most of this activity is automated, coming from compromised computers around the world.

 

As an example of the level of attacks, we were recently notified (by the security software we install on all our websites) that there had been an increased rate of attack on one site we manage ... and when I looked, there there were up to 50 seperate attempts to break in every minute!

 

It's a constant battle. Part of the answer is chosing a good hosting company, not the cheapest.The rest is down to adding security software, updating programs as necessary, and watching traffic - I monitor ALL admin level logins and all lock-outs on all the sites we look after ... it's a time overhead, but we can't afford to not to do it for our clients.

 

The probelm with the C&L site was probably inadequate protection, no reporting, and lack of backups. This is something Phil inherited with the business, and meant he wasn't able to recover from the problem.

 

It underlines the importance of having good technical support when you rely on a website. A phone contact or support ticket system with your hosting company is seldom enough, especially with the larger companies.

 

 

Very informative David, and it shows how difficult it is to protect any website now given the attention they receive from hackers worldwide.

 

Like yourself I had personal involvement in designing and specifying systems to prevent external attack when I worked on corporate IT Infrastructure Projects, and it's a very costly and challenging job.

 

I hope Phil has factored all this in to the new website, especially if he is going to be processing card / e-payments and holding personal information. Personally I would let a 3rd party do all this and take the risk - hence my previous comments re Paypal, ebay etc.

[martin_wynne]

New C&L website has gone live today:

 

 http://www.clfinescale.co.uk/

 

Martin.

[Paul Cram]

Needs more proof reading to eradicate errors

[Siberian Snooper]

To big for my tablet, all I can see is a can of spam, a bit of plain track and a bit of scenery.

[Stephen Freeman]

Oh Dear!

 

I know I have some issues with Mobile usage on my own websites but I know what they are and I will get around to it eventaully but at least they display properly on desktop pcs .

Edited January 28, 2019 by Stephen Freeman

[chris p bacon]

It opened fine on mine (Safari) 

[hayfield]

To big for my tablet, all I can see is a can of spam, a bit of plain track and a bit of scenery.

 

 

I have a new to me large screen desk top (son in law acquired and installed yesterday) and it looks fine, just need to get used to how its set up. Certainly more colourful and modern than the previous site

 

Still work in progress but still now up and running as many have requested, the old site was causing issues.

 

As one would expect a few negative comments, but then we all moan when sites like eBay alter their set up. Hopefully once all the photos have been added it will look a lot better.  Good feedback about how it comes over on a tablet, looks like the page has been cropped on the iPhone, the developers need to sort out the page, Have sent a message to Phil

[Nimbus]

Nope. Cropped for me too [MacBook Pro 17"/Safari 11.1.2].

 

The Nim.

[Porcy Mane]

OK @ 1920 x 1200 but "restore down" to any smaller size & site becomes cropped.

 

On Chrome.

[Lecorbusier]

Most browsers under the view option on the top menu bar will have a zoom out option. You should be able to use this to see the full web page as an interim measure.

[PenrithBeacon]

I raised it on both desktop and iPhone but the page is truncated on the left hand side. The FAQ page has a few issues.

[sharris]

I think it needs some more work on the HTML and CSS to fit the device and size available - it extends past the edges of the screen when I view it on my phone in either orientation (Safari on an iPhone 5) - seems to be just a problem with the front page though.

 

Edit:just noticed Penrith noted the same problem.

Edited January 28, 2019 by sharris

[Pacific231G]

The desktop monitor for my very ordinary PC is 1280x1024 and the site truncates on that. I can't remember when I last came across a site that fails to display properly at this resolution.  I can get it to fit by zooming out (ctrl minus) but to zoom out far enough for the whole page to appear makes the text very small. Oh dear!!

Edited January 28, 2019 by Pacific231G