roythebus Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Cash flow is king. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2018 I am concerned that if this situation continues, will C + L be up for sale again soon? That wouldn't be a problem now, it seems there are plenty of people who know how to run this company and could easily take over and run it better than Phil.... No wonder it took so long to sell the first time. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Hummm............................. I'm probably going to cause ructions with this - but here goes.......... It seems odd that having taken over a company that is possibly most people's choice for buying track components, Phil* has managed to arrange himself into a corner. He seems to have little time available to pick,pack and send orders whilst 'on shed' because he has shows to attend. Looking at the show diary, it would appear he will be inordinately busy packing, attending then unpacking for shows, all with the attendant travel too. Now this wouldn't be an issue if you could collect at shows , but on the front of his site it states - I am suspending the arrangement for the time being of orders to be collect at show as this has had a big impact on my time when I should be restocking the stand their are some exceptions to this rule by arrangement. I am concerned that if this situation continues, will C + L be up for sale again soon? Emma *I couldn’t find the gentleman's surname Emma Whatever Phil does has an impact on other things which need doing, pick ups at shows are a very small part of the business, in all but a very few cases can be done in front of the customer saving time back in the business to send out stock. All parts of the business were very run down by the last owner, it will take time to get it back to an even keel. I am certain it will happen as there has been progress,sadly not as much as was hoped for. Even when the business had a return postal system I planned my buying round the show scheduled I would visit, fine if you or a friend attends shows Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Curnow Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 That wouldn't be a problem now, it seems there are plenty of people who know how to run this company and could easily take over and run it better than Phil.... No wonder it took so long to sell the first time. Chris Surely you should have said "think they know how to run this company". However much Phil rationalises the product range it's still an overwhelming amount of work for one man. Regarding taking stock for collection at shows, it does focus the mind on putting orders together to a deadline but it takes up valuable space in the van on the day. The only real advantage is to the customer who saves on carriage costs. Thinking back to the previous owner, he went through a phase of not taking stock to shows but just display samples. If you wanted something you filled in a form and it was sent by post at the company's expense. Bit of a no brainer which probably wiped out any profit. I watched this in action at the Thornbury show several years back and it was probably of no surprise that some customers who maybe only wanted a bottle of flux or Butanone just walked away and bought it from somewhere else like Squires. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) I think there's a subtle difference between the two though Martin. Having Ultrascale wheels is a 'nice to have' and indeed, I have joined the queue with others to wait my turn. Meanwhile my loco was running and things move on. Not having sleeper strip or rail with which to build my track, stops my build programme in it's tracks. Right now I still have some rail to tide me over, but another time it may be different and to see something in stock, pay for it up front plus delivery charges by BACS and then waiting several weeks for the product to arrive must make me question priorities. There are only so many hours in the day, so something has to give. Protect what you have first and then build on that. Hummm............................. I'm probably going to cause ructions with this - but here goes.......... It seems odd that having taken over a company that is possibly most people's choice for buying track components, Phil* has managed to arrange himself into a corner. He seems to have little time available to pick,pack and send orders whilst 'on shed' because he has shows to attend. Looking at the show diary, it would appear he will be inordinately busy packing, attending then unpacking for shows, all with the attendant travel too. Now this wouldn't be an issue if you could collect at shows , but on the front of his site it states - I am suspending the arrangement for the time being of orders to be collect at show as this has had a big impact on my time when I should be restocking the stand their are some exceptions to this rule by arrangement. I am concerned that if this situation continues, will C + L be up for sale again soon? Emma *I couldn’t find the gentleman's surname I don't expect the business to run in same way as before as it was run and supported by several other paid employes. So with no salaries to pay and rent of substantial business unit then there is probably enough margin to keep business going as I'm sure there is a significant customer following for what may become a specialised and product. Perhaps attendance at exhibitions is the way the new business owner prefers to run his business and considering there is no other brand to compete with in terms of individual prototypical components then I suggest he will always have a strong customer base. This customer base may not need to be as big as before and those that are unable to acquire items for whatever reason will unfortunately have to revert back to ready to run or scratch building. However I do hope the business will go from strength to strength and again a 'pat on the back' for the new owner for taking this on. Edited January 21, 2018 by Greenmodelmonkey 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Chris Surely you should have said "think they know how to run this company". However much Phil rationalises the product range it's still an overwhelming amount of work for one man. Regarding taking stock for collection at shows, it does focus the mind on putting orders together to a deadline but it takes up valuable space in the van on the day. The only real advantage is to the customer who saves on carriage costs. Thinking back to the previous owner, he went through a phase of not taking stock to shows but just display samples. If you wanted something you filled in a form and it was sent by post at the company's expense. Bit of a no brainer which probably wiped out any profit. I watched this in action at the Thornbury show several years back and it was probably of no surprise that some customers who maybe only wanted a bottle of flux or Butanone just walked away and bought it from somewhere else like Squires. Rob Yes agreed I had similar experiences at Thornbury at Bristol O gauge shows with previous owner not really interested in customer for some reason and it was a pointless display if you could not purchase products. Strange as the business was only about 5 miles away (!?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Curnow Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Yes agreed I had similar experiences at Thornbury at Bristol O gauge shows with previous owner not really interested in customer for some reason and it was a pointless display if you could not purchase products. Strange as the business was only about 5 miles away (!?). My understanding is that it was all down to his back injury which restricted what he could take with him. But then he had a team of staff who manned the stand and they looked pretty fit and healthy. Speaking of the Bristol O Gauge show next weekend I'm surprised that Phil is not attending as I thought he would make a lot more money there than at Southampton. Could be wrong! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 My understanding is that it was all down to his back injury which restricted what he could take with him. But then he had a team of staff who manned the stand and they looked pretty fit and healthy. Speaking of the Bristol O Gauge show next weekend I'm surprised that Phil is not attending as I thought he would make a lot more money there than at Southampton. Could be wrong! Rob Rob attending a show as a trader is dependent on getting an invite. It may be that he didn't get an application in quick enough or far enough ahead. A few shows have a waiting list for traders, so if a "gap" appears they soon fill it. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 My understanding is that it was all down to his back injury which restricted what he could take with him. But then he had a team of staff who manned the stand and they looked pretty fit and healthy. Speaking of the Bristol O Gauge show next weekend I'm surprised that Phil is not attending as I thought he would make a lot more money there than at Southampton. Could be wrong! Rob Agreed helpers/employees looked fit and healthy, had transport and set up a large stand to display goods, so bringing a few smaller products was a missed opportunity or perhaps stock levels were too low ..who knows? Interesting comment about O gauge perhaps this is lower priority for Phil at this time ..again who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Curnow Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 My thinking was that the Bristol O Gauge show has lots of traders compared with the number of layouts so gives the impression of tending more towards a trade show where you go to pick up all your bits and pieces. Also, comparing the relative cost of 7mm scale components with their 4mm equivalents I would have thought it easier to realise a good turnover despite it being for just the one day. I've never been to the Southampton show so maybe I am not being fair. Perhaps I will take a trip down there next weekend. I take Jol's point about maybe not having had an invite. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) My thinking was that the Bristol O Gauge show has lots of traders compared with the number of layouts so gives the impression of tending more towards a trade show where you go to pick up all your bits and pieces. Also, comparing the relative cost of 7mm scale components with their 4mm equivalents I would have thought it easier to realise a good turnover despite it being for just the one day. I've never been to the Southampton show so maybe I am not being fair. Perhaps I will take a trip down there next weekend. I take Jol's point about maybe not having had an invite. Rob Except that Phil is going to be at the Southampton MRC show both days this weekend and it's a bit difficult for him to be in two places at the same time. Jim Edited January 21, 2018 by jim.snowdon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Internet order received safe and correct. No chasing required. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Tim Dubya Posted January 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2018 Internet order received safe and correct. No chasing required. Hi, what was the turnaround time from ordering to delivery please? Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 One big advantage of attending shows is that you can get some turnover for what you actually have in stock, without all the hassle of mail orders containing items which you don't. This is not the way , using modern online shopping to maximise stock turn and cash. An online shop maintaining real time stock levels, is the way to maximise cash up front and selling what you have in stock . Punters simply cant order what you dont have and they pay upfront with the order . No back orders, no cheques, no cash, no running to the bank , all done online without any human intervention , the human just packs orders and ships stock product Simples, done by thousands , off the shelf software ....... Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 All parts of the business were very run down by the last owner, it will take time to get it back to an even keel. I am certain it will happen as there has been progress,sadly not as much as was hoped for. you mention this a few times, but I ordered from C&L right up to near the end, orders dealt with promptly , emails answered, and the items I wanted ( chairs and rail ) in stock etc From the outside looking in the business was well run AFAIK dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2018 Punters simply can't order what you don't have and they pay upfront with the order. Calling valued customers "punters" surely sums up the different business approach you describe. Serving a customer includes explaining that although X is currently out of stock, Y might be suitable for what you want if you cut off the unwanted part just here, and because I don't have any X at present I will let you have a few Y at the same price as X. At a show it's easy. In an online shopping cart? Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 you mention this a few times, but I ordered from C&L right up to near the end, orders dealt with promptly , emails answered, and the items I wanted ( chairs and rail ) in stock etc From the outside looking in the business was well run AFAIK dave Dave That quote was made by me, the staff were employed right up to the end and did a splendid job, I too got items by return. That was not at what I was getting at, for a long time Peter had let his staff run the business, rarely being at the business. Certainly for a year or more Peter had been trying to sell the company, all investment had stopped and the track side of the business was being run down. Some of the moulds were in need of repair or replacing. Not blaming anyone, Peter had done his best to build up the business and had great plans and hopes for the future. What I was getting at was that Phil took over a business which had been starved of investment and stock levels run down. Many boxes were not only unmarked but I believe had contents which were mixed up, he had a mammoth job in sorting everything out. Phil's had a tough time in sorting things out, and is still getting some things straight. Its very easy to make comments about things should be done, especially when little is known about what has happened. The plain fact is had Phil not stepped in at the last minuet C&L would have gone and Exactoscale would have taken many months to reemerge. The economics of the business is quite straight forward, the only way it can survive is by returning to being a cottage type industry The business has changed hands several times since it first emerged as K&L, hopefully without the crippling overheads of a business premises and staff the company now has a much better chance of survival. Phil would like things to be better than they are at the moment and is working to that end 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) Calling valued customers "punters" surely sums up the different business approach you describe. Serving a customer includes explaining that although X is currently out of stock, Y might be suitable for what you want if you cut off the unwanted part just here, and because I don't have any X at present I will let you have a few Y at the same price as X. At a show it's easy. In an online shopping cart? Martin. whether my use of the word " punter" was inappropriate or not is not really germane Your views on business are decidedly out of date Martin . You seem to have ignored the enormous rise of on-line shopping ( clearly a method the " customer " likes ) where communications with those buyers takes place " automatically " The key to a one man bands success is a form of " force multiplier " , i.e. to be a minnow but roar like a lion. Online technology allows that . You simply do not decend into the issue you outline, it wastes too much time. You sell what you have in stock, for upfront payment , with direct inline payment systems , that lodge directly to an account, all pre cleared Thats how 100,0000s of very small on one-man bands today can run a business, that in the past , had letters, cheques, order taking etc , all of which consumed inordinate amounts of time and generated little or no profit to argue otherwise is to fly in the face of the reality happening everyday all around you on the internet and why bricks and mortar shops have disappeared in this hobby and many other specialist fields as to "Serving a customer". in all cases a business must weight how much " service " should be given in respect of the level of business and profit generated , nothing is free. dave Edited January 25, 2018 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Dave That quote was made by me, the staff were employed right up to the end and did a splendid job, I too got items by return. That was not at what I was getting at, for a long time Peter had let his staff run the business, rarely being at the business. Certainly for a year or more Peter had been trying to sell the company, all investment had stopped and the track side of the business was being run down. Some of the moulds were in need of repair or replacing. Not blaming anyone, Peter had done his best to build up the business and had great plans and hopes for the future. What I was getting at was that Phil took over a business which had been starved of investment and stock levels run down. Many boxes were not only unmarked but I believe had contents which were mixed up, he had a mammoth job in sorting everything out. Phil's had a tough time in sorting things out, and is still getting some things straight. Its very easy to make comments about things should be done, especially when little is known about what has happened. The plain fact is had Phil not stepped in at the last minuet C&L would have gone and Exactoscale would have taken many months to reemerge. The economics of the business is quite straight forward, the only way it can survive is by returning to being a cottage type industry The business has changed hands several times since it first emerged as K&L, hopefully without the crippling overheads of a business premises and staff the company now has a much better chance of survival. Phil would like things to be better than they are at the moment and is working to that end Im not at all playing down the issues that Phil has had to deal with , I would completely disagree with his idea of concentrating on shows, but lets not go over that ground again. I am aware of the back story to Petes issues and especially the issue of the deadlines on the lease of the building , and it was that time line that tended to drive everything I wish Phil all the best , I just think he's got the wrong end of the stick , thats all . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2018 Your views on business are decidedly out of date Martin. It surely depends on how the business owner wants to run it? A one-man craft/cottage industry is very different from Amazon. Especially if they are producing something which is not available elsewhere. Who cares what happens to Amazon? There are plenty of others. But there aren't any other C&L's. It's important that the owner of C&L finds a way of running the business that he actually enjoys, and is still there running it in 5 or 10 years time, knowing his customers by name. What you describe sounds so soul-destroying monotonous with no real contact with the customers, that any sane person would pack it in after a year or two and sell up. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2018 This is not the way , using modern online shopping to maximise stock turn and cash. An online shop maintaining real time stock levels, is the way to maximise cash up front and selling what you have in stock . Punters simply cant order what you dont have and they pay upfront with the order . No back orders, no cheques, no cash, no running to the bank , all done online without any human intervention , the human just packs orders and ships stock product Simples, done by thousands , off the shelf software ....... Dave So you've already said. If this really is the case and there is a valuable business that can be run by one man with a website, then where were the offers to purchase such a lucrative outfit ? The reality is that the product is made up of so many parts, in so many combinations that you can't effectively stock it in the way you describe unless you start to employ. To have a live website with product quantity shown means you have to have packs made up, this means for a product line such as C&L you could have several products that are good but erratic sellers tying up stock that could be used in other more lucrative sellers. So do you order even more components or strip the packs you have ? I had some items made up by someone who is friends with the previous owner, and he stated that it was quite a headache to run and not the easy system you seem to think it was. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 whether my use of the word " punter" was inappropriate or not is not really germane Your views on business are decidedly out of date Martin . You seem to have ignored the enormous rise of on-line shopping ( clearly a method the " customer " likes ) where communications with those buyers takes place " automatically " The key to a one man bands success is a form of " force multiplier " , i.e. to be a minnow but roar like a lion. Online technology allows that . You simply do not decend into the issue you outline, it wastes too much time. You sell what you have in stock, for upfront payment , with direct inline payment systems , that lodge directly to an account, all pre cleared Thats how 100,0000s of very small on one-man bands today can run a business, that in the past , had letters, cheques, order taking etc , all of which consumed inordinate amounts of time and generated little or no profit to argue otherwise is to fly in the face of the reality happening everyday all around you on the internet and why bricks and mortar shops have disappeared in this hobby and many other specialist fields as to "Serving a customer". in all cases a business must weight how much " service " should be given in respect of the level of business and profit generated , nothing is free. dave Actually its down to Phil how he wants to run his business and if he is more comfortable with selling at shows (for what ever reason) then good luck to him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 It surely depends on how the business owner wants to run it? A one-man craft/cottage industry is very different from Amazon. Especially if they are producing something which is not available elsewhere. Who cares what happens to Amazon? There are plenty of others. But there aren't any other C&L's. It's important that the owner of C&L finds a way of running the business that he actually enjoys, and is still there running it in 5 or 10 years time, knowing his customers by name. What you describe sounds so soul-destroying monotonous with no real contact with the customers, that any sane person would pack it in after a year or two and sell up. Martin. Well said Martin! .... Said with a common sense and more realistic view of business and personal situation Phil has taken on. Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) Except that Phil is going to be at the Southampton MRC show both days this weekend and it's a bit difficult for him to be in two places at the same time. Jim Additionally, Phil is usually on the adjacent stand to Roxey Mouldings at shows and he and Dave Hammersley "spell" each other as reqd. Do any of you seriously think that a guy can do a 2day show completely single handed - without even a loo break! Phil's shows are to some extent predicated around the local support available. Bristol 0 Gauge show, in my past experience there as a trader, has not been somewhere much money gets taken. It's perhaps the wrong side of Christmas unlike the Reading Trade Show which is really just a quick trip down the GWML from Bristol. Edited January 25, 2018 by ted675 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) It surely depends on how the business owner wants to run it? A one-man craft/cottage industry is very different from Amazon. Especially if they are producing something which is not available elsewhere. Who cares what happens to Amazon? There are plenty of others. But there aren't any other C&L's. It's important that the owner of C&L finds a way of running the business that he actually enjoys, and is still there running it in 5 or 10 years time, knowing his customers by name. What you describe sounds so soul-destroying monotonous with no real contact with the customers, that any sane person would pack it in after a year or two and sell up. Martin. every business has a " degree " of personal contact, these days often excessively by email or other electronic communication , like Facebook etc You mistake by Amazon comment, Amazon itself is a huge concern , but the Amazon marketplace is full of very small businesses making use of the on-line infrastructure that Amazon provides , rather like eBay and Aliexpress why is it easier for me to order $1.50 parts from china via Aliexpress then 100 4 bolt plastic chairs from C&L ??? the craft or cottage industry moniker is actually irrelevant , it really means nothing in reality , its a business far more important then enjoying a business , is having a business that doesnt consume every weekend, drowns you in paperwork back order handling , and struggles to make a profit . Not making money is why most quit, Martin Edited January 25, 2018 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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