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C&L Finescale


Andy Y
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The staff were employed right up to the end and did a splendid job,

I am still in touch with a few of the ex-staff and I am sure they will very much appreciate such comments.  They worked their hearts out to keep it running despite certain stocks running low and working with some sub standard materials.  Having been told at short notice that it was all coming to an end due to the lease expiring on the factory unit they were totally bemused when during the final week the landlord put a 'Lease Available' sign above the door.  The truth was never forthcoming which left them feeling very bitter.

Rob

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So you've already said.

 

If this really is the case and there is a valuable business that can be run by one man with a website,  then where were the offers to purchase such a lucrative outfit ? 

 

The reality is that the product is made up of so many parts, in so many combinations that you can't effectively stock it in the way you describe unless you start to employ.  To have a live website with product quantity shown means you have to have packs made up, this means for a product line such as C&L you could have several products that are good but erratic sellers tying up stock that could be used in other more lucrative sellers.  So do you order even more components or strip the packs you have ?

 

I had some items made up by someone who is friends with the previous owner, and he stated that it was quite a headache to run and not the easy system you seem to think it was.  

 

I think you choose to pick my words out of context 

 

C&L for many years was ( looking in from the outside ) a well run , responsive business.  

 

Most of the parts C&L sell are individual items, sourced from third party manufacturers , chairs , rail , ply sleepers , etc etc . These are just standard stock parts, even things like point kits , crossing Vs and switch blades, all boil down to X number of stock parts , you either have 10 point kits of a certain angle or you dont.  

 

The fact is C&L had a very good online system to order their parts , shows the stock is entirely amenable to online selling ,  You are making the product range to  be something other then it is

 

Of course Phil will do what Phil feels comfortable with , I met the man at Telford and he's a fine chap, however many people do things they are " comfortable " with , but its not the right way to do things 

 

 

as ever time will tell and I do hope it all works out to Phils and his customers satisfaction 

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I am still in touch with a few of the ex-staff and I am sure they will very much appreciate such comments.  They worked their hearts out to keep it running despite certain stocks running low and working with some sub standard materials.  Having been told at short notice that it was all coming to an end due to the lease expiring on the factory unit they were totally bemused when during the final week the landlord put a 'Lease Available' sign above the door.  The truth was never forthcoming which left them feeling very bitter.

Rob

 

The lease expiring was in the public domain , Pete outlined it several months before the end , Petes desire to sell or close it if not was also in the public domain, in  large letters on the website 

 

Anyway the debate is circular, there are views from all sides , ultimately the process, the money and Phils energy levels !, will decide what happens 

Edited by Junctionmad
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Hello,

      

 

why is it easier for me to order $1.50 parts from china via Aliexpress then 100 4 bolt plastic chairs from C&L ???

 As far as I am aware ALL exports out of China are subsidized by the Chinese government and profit is a possible benefit but not obligatory.

I don't think Phil is subsidized by the British government or anyone else and profit is fundamental to the survival and continuation of his business

trustytrev. :)

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Junctionmad made the following comment in an earlier post"....but its not the right way to do things"

 

 

Errr.... Only in your opinion. There are of course lots of ways to do things and desired outcomes depend on many factors... and these may, or may not be to your liking. One of the desired outcomes may indeed be personal comfort in running a small business so what's wrong with that? It maybe not the same business model as it used to be and again I don't see anything wrong with that. It would be nice to have a job you get pleasure from don't you think?

Edited by Greenmodelmonkey
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why is it easier for me to order $1.50 parts from china via Aliexpress then 100 4 bolt plastic chairs from C&L ???

 

Perhaps because you can't buy 4 bolt chairs through Aliexpress? Or was it a trick question?

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I bought from c&l quite a bit back before all this ,but since it’s changed and lost the PayPal payment method And all the troubles I’ve heard I’ve decided to go with peco for track

Brian

As will a large amount of other people. Wether some people on here like it or not we live in an instant world, it's all around us. I don't have a problem if someone wants to run a business as a hobby but that won't suit many customers. This is all a great shame because I've used C&L heavily in the past. Our exhibition layout "Bournemouth West" was built entirely using their products and my last two home layouts have used them exclusively.

Very sadly, as people get fed up with delays, out of stock items and lack of communication they will look for alternatives, and if they find them will not return. There are plenty of examples of this in the model railway field.

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Very sadly, as people get fed up with delays, out of stock items and lack of communication they will look for alternatives, and if they find them will not return. There are plenty of examples of this in the model railway field.

 

 

I must admit I'd not noticed that the hobby is absolutely stuffed full of alternative track component manufacturers....

 

And before someone mentions Peco, one turnout in BH does not make an alternative.

 

Something that crops up on other threads is the lack of patience in society, this thread shows it's not confined to the younger age group. The reality is that if Phil hadn't stuck his hand in his pocket the original owner would have had no choice but to shut up shop and the range disappear when his premises came to a end.

 

Now you can purchase from him at shows but for some he does too many.

It's taken him longer than he thought to get a stable working process but for others he should be doing more/going faster.

Some think he should spend £10k + on a website and just do internet orders.

 

It is Phil's business and only he knows what he's capable of doing.

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What delays have you actually suffered recently ?

 

4 Weeks and 2 phone calls for 1 item that was supposed to be in stock (according to website), plus a very disjointed method of paying (BACS). It must be very time consuming trying to tie in Bank Account deposits with actual orders. At least with PayPal you get a notification that someone has paid you money with a list of what they've ordered. It's also curious that at the bottom of the website page's is a 'Verified by Visa logo.

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I have been waiting nearly 2 months now for an order from C&L so gave Phil a call last week. He said he would get around to it 'in a week or two' and from the conversation appears to be faced with a number of issues which he is wading through.

 

Personally I can wait, even though this is well beyond the turnaround now expected from an online business. Collecting from shows doesn't work for me due to living out in the sticks - most of these are 'south of Watford Gap' and too costly to attend.

 

I guess in our cyber space world there is an expectation that robots process orders and run a business. There is of course a 'human' side to this. The point is although there are clearly many problems, pick up the phone and have a chat with Phil - he's a nice fella !

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.......Something that crops up on other threads is the lack of patience in society, this thread shows it's not confined to the younger age group.

And that shows you how much the internet has infiltrated and driven people's behaviour, no? "Want it now, want it yesterday."

 

 

The reality is that if Phil hadn't stuck his hand in his pocket the original owner would have had no choice but to shut up shop and the range disappear when his premises came to a end.

See also Perseverance which could well disappear (and in fact has for now) after the recent death of Chris Parrish.

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Having spoken to Phil yesterday, I have some sympathy towards his situation.  It's clear he's doing all he can to make the business run again.  We all have views on how this can be achieved, but 'when you're up to your arse in alligators' logic is often set aside.

 

As a customer for C & L over many years, I'm rooting for Phil and want the business to survive and perhaps many of us who live in the 'overnight world' (myself included) are going to have to take on a different persona until things improve.  

 

With regard to delays, John is already aware of my situation.  An order placed and paid for by BACS for 100m of rail that was in stock on the 31st December.  Of course Christmas and New Year followed, but it's not unreasonable to expect to see an ex stock order shipped by the end of the first week after the holiday.

 

From the conversation I had with Phil yesterday, he is working his way through all outstanding orders, but when it came to it, many items that were showing in stock weren't and that has certainly added to the delays.

 

The only reason for telling you this is that I guess we have to think ahead for a while, accept deliveries aren't going to be overnight and you could be looking at 4-6 weeks delivery in the short term.

 

Faced with the choice of 4-6 weeks delivery or no C & L at all, I know which I would prefer.

Edited by gordon s
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the distance Selling Regulations. My company was recently involved in County Court proceedings after someone returned an item he had ordered and paid for then decided he didn't want some 8 months after buying it! He was a trader, my firm was a trader, different regs apply, but enough of that case.

 

But, this led me to do some online research and the Distance Selling Regulations apply to ALL businesses that use online selling methods. they HAVE to comply with certain criteria, to reply within 24 hours. Goods have to be dispatched within a certain amount of time and money cannot always be taken up front. I can't remember the exact details as a lot has happened since then, but I would hate to think that any of our cottage industries could fall foul of these regulations. Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, sorry to say.

 

Don't make too many waves, we've already lost too many specialists in this hobby.

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Roger

 

What delays have you actually suffered recently ?

To be fair, I personally have not, I was simply making an observation based on the comments made by other contributors on here. As one contributor later added, other than Scaleway, DCC Concepts and, lately Peco, there are not too many alternatives. I would be very sad if C&L were to disappear but the frustration of people on here is clear.

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Roger

 

Granted there are problems with some orders from C&L, others have said orders have arrived safely and quickly. As Martin has told us there was only Phil willing to put his hand in his pocket to keep this range going. He cannot provide the service that the previous owner had, don't forget that service was loosing money and in the end failed to continue trading.

 

If someone is having problems obtaining items, then I have no issue with people mentioning them, hopefully as you seem to be a contented customer of both the range and service given by one of the previous owners, by the time you are ready to buy again hopefully the supply issues will have been resolved.

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Hello,

       

 

Scaleway, DCC Concepts and, lately Peco

 

Comparing like for like would not go amiss in relation to the title of this thread. As far as I am aware NONE of the above mentioned manufacture or provide 4mm scale products to hand build track in 4mm to the foot. Until that is any different we should all be patient and hope Phil is successful and stop put obstacles in the way or make things any more difficult for him to succeed.

trustytrev.:)

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To be fair, I personally have not, I was simply making an observation based on the comments made by other contributors on here. As one contributor later added, other than Scaleway, DCC Concepts and, lately Peco, there are not too many alternatives. I would be very sad if C&L were to disappear but the frustration of people on here is clear.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that I could purchase the parts from the likes of Peco to make up a B9 turnout on OO.  Some Flexi track and one turnout isn't really an alternative. 

​If Peco were the alternative then I wouldn't have ripped up several years work and spent the price of a car with C&L replacing it. ( and very glad I did) 

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Alternatives?

 

Bullhead:

7mm scale - limited parts from Peco and Shapeways

4mm scale SMP - Flexitrack (not my cup of tea but have used it in the past, one fairly tight radius plastic based type of turnout base, rail and copperclad

4mm scale Masokits - etched brass chairs

 

None of those come close in scope.

 

In 7mm scale Peco have a non-scale rail section and only one type of chair and slide chair, Shapeways only suits LNER REA turnouts except for a GWR Slab and Bracket

 

There may be mileage in 3D printed chairs in 4mm scale e.g. 2 bolt slide chairs from Modelu but you have to accept the use of something other than Butanone, i.e. superglue.

 

I would expect that somebody would probably soon appear to fill the void if C&L was no more. There are other track component suppliers but not in 7mm and 4mm scales.

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Alternatives?

 

Bullhead:

7mm scale - limited parts from Peco and Shapeways

4mm scale SMP - Flexitrack (not my cup of tea but have used it in the past, one fairly tight radius plastic based type of turnout base, rail and copperclad

4mm scale Masokits - etched brass chairs

 

None of those come close in scope.

 

In 7mm scale Peco have a non-scale rail section and only one type of chair and slide chair, Shapeways only suits LNER REA turnouts except for a GWR Slab and Bracket

 

There may be mileage in 3D printed chairs in 4mm scale e.g. 2 bolt slide chairs from Modelu but you have to accept the use of something other than Butanone, i.e. superglue.

 

I would expect that somebody would probably soon appear to fill the void if C&L was no more. There are other track component suppliers but not in 7mm and 4mm scales.

 

There is also Colin Craig for 4mm FB points and kits as etched components.

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True, but if you were modelling FB track then you wouldn't be considering C&L anyway, because apart from 1 component they don't make it.

 

There is that. It is a shame they don't offer more, though they do offer some useful items and flexi-track in FB iirc.

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I would expect that somebody would probably soon appear to fill the void if C&L was no more. There are other track component suppliers but not in 7mm and 4mm scales.

Stephen,

 

the development of the C&L (and latterly the Exactoscale) range was a long and complex one. It also involved at least two people who were able to invest considerably in the development and tooling costs. I thing it unlikely that there is anyone here who would be willing to make that investment. Would the scale societies be willing to do it, if their Constitutions and funds allowed? I think it would be unlikely. Would those that build track professionally, Tony Wilkins, Norman Solomon, yourself and others to be willing or able?

 

Don't forget that we live in a time where increasingly people want things done for them, rather than a few years ago when people were willing to use their initiative, risk their own funds (as Phil has done) and start up businesses to provide better    products that they wanted and which there was a sufficient market to make it viable. Several of the product ranges we enjoy using to create more "finescale" models started in this way.

 

Jol

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Stephen,

 

the development of the C&L (and latterly the Exactoscale) range was a long and complex one. It also involved at least two people who were able to invest considerably in the development and tooling costs. I thing it unlikely that there is anyone here who would be willing to make that investment. Would the scale societies be willing to do it, if their Constitutions and funds allowed? I think it would be unlikely. Would those that build track professionally, Tony Wilkins, Norman Solomon, yourself and others to be willing or able?

 

Don't forget that we live in a time where increasingly people want things done for them, rather than a few years ago when people were willing to use their initiative, risk their own funds (as Phil has done) and start up businesses to provide better    products that they wanted and which there was a sufficient market to make it viable. Several of the product ranges we enjoy using to create more "finescale" models started in this way.

 

Jol

 

 

As things stand the finescale societies won't do anything that would be in effect 'competing', but if C&L were to (hopefully not!) fail, then it'd be a different situation and something they'd have to give serious consideration to I'd expect, though whether they'd invest the sums for a full range like c&L offer is doubtful, but perhaps enough to make track building viable again in the hope someone else comes along. But it is all hearsay at this stage and Phil should be given more time to get things straight, he hasn't been at the helm long, and such things do take a fair bit of time usually (look at Pheonix Paints and the ranges they've bought as an example of how long it can take to get set up and going again).

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