Jump to content

Andy Y

C&L Finescale

Recommended Posts

the tax advantages involve VAT, thats about the height of it, and many societies in the UK would be under the VAT exemption limits anyway. But again I was proposing that members join to access components, the Society should receive something in return for its efforts above and beyond mere sales.

 

it doesnt take vast amounts of cash , but I think the various gauge societies should ensure that the key components necessary are protected from business failure or arbitrarily disappearance , thats my view

It is also to do with corporation tax. Sales to members don't acrue it iirc, but sales to non members do. To avoid the more complicated accounting needed for that a lot of societies simply sell only to members as a result (merg certainly follow this working with their electronic kits).

 

The scalefour society and emgs certainly don't that I know have vast reserves to be either able to buy toolings or supplies of parts to the amounts suggested in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

When did this thread alter from C&L are changing hands to its the end of the world and something must be done to save us?

Edited by LBRJ
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It most certainly is a kick in the teeth when it puts a roof over your head and food on your table, being told a month earlier that things were going so well that the business would carry on as it is now for at least another year. We are talking about people's livelihoods here.

 

I was always taught that a business' most valuable asset was its staff.  Maybe times have changed!

This is not meant to be argumentative but the most important part of a business is its product. That is the only thing that has a real identifiable value when it comes to a sale. 

 

I can't comment on what was said a month before,  but in my own business world  I have seen others experience a change in fortunes in a matter of days when banks etc pull the plug even though guaranteeing continuety just hours before. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can certainly testify to how quickly things can change.

 

About 7 years ago the company I worked for set up an agreement with a medical implant company to resell one of their implants for use with a surgical navigation system we'd created. This was supposed to guarantee our company's future (or at least extend it until another of our projects came to fruition).

 

A few weeks later another implant company unexpectedly (at least to us) bought them out and cancelled the deal - they were primarily interested in acquiring the rights to a different implant in their range. No more lifeline and a month later redundancy letters went out to most of our company, including me. Fortunately I was back in a new job within a couple of months.

 

Hopefully those being made redundant at C&L will be as lucky and find new work soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just after someone suggested there was no need to panic.

Have the Dolphins left ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It most certainly is a kick in the teeth when it puts a roof over your head and food on your table, being told a month earlier that things were going so well that the business would carry on as it is now for at least another year. We are talking about people's livelihoods here.

 

I was always taught that a business' most valuable asset was its staff.  Maybe times have changed!

 

So you're accusing a bloke who's had a major medical operation go horribly wrong, leading to a lifetime of pain, forcing him to give up his beloved business, of kicking his employees in the teeth.

I'm sure that's exactly what Pete wanted from his life.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Mike.

Annoyed, cos it's only bloody toy trains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is also to do with corporation tax. Sales to members don't acrue it iirc, but sales to non members do. To avoid the more complicated accounting needed for that a lot of societies simply sell only to members as a result

 

 

Somewhere in the archive in my loft is a letter from the Inland Revenue confirming that if we changed our Club Rules to say that visitors to our exhibition were classed as 'Day Members' of the club then we would not be liable for any tax on the profit we made from organising the show. Other clubs had similar arrangements and some even advertised their admission fee as being a payment for day membership and printed this on the admission ticket. You don't seem to see this as much as before (this was about 25 years ago) but we still have that clause in our constitution and don't pay tax. Now it seems more shows are being organised by limited companies set up by clubs to limit their liability. Sorry to go off topic but it is relevant to the comments above about sales to members. VAT is a completely separate matter based on turnover.

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It most certainly is a kick in the teeth when it puts a roof over your head and food on your table, being told a month earlier that things were going so well that the business would carry on as it is now for at least another year. We are talking about people's livelihoods here.

 

I was always taught that a business' most valuable asset was its staff.  Maybe times have changed!

 

Rob

 

I do feel very sorry for the staff, even more so as it now seems that  after being told one thing a month ago things have altered to (as far as the staff are concerned) the opposite. I personally do want to say a big thank you to all the staff for the exemplary service I have received over the years, and wish all will find reemployment quickly.

 

In business things are never as plain as they seem from the outside, in fact something totally unrelated/unexpected can happen which changes the situation overnight. One of my best ever bosses always said his first priority was to his family, having said that he always seemed to look after his staff as well. I guess the exact facts will (quite rightly) never come to light, and to be quite honest some speculation may not help anyone and best not said 

 

On a modelling front it is a relief that the supply of parts will continue to be available and lets hope a bright new dawn for the range will emerge.

 

Just a big thanks to Pete and his staff for their past service to their customers, and good luck to Pete, his staff and the new owners for the future

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the tax advantages involve VAT, thats about the height of it, and many societies in the UK would be under the VAT exemption limits anyway.  But again I was proposing that members join to access components, the Society should receive something in return for its efforts above and beyond mere sales. 

 

it doesnt take vast amounts of cash , but I think the various gauge societies should ensure that the key components necessary are protected from business failure or arbitrarily disappearance , thats my view 

 

As far as I understand it, there is also no corporation tax to pay on profits, as they are not profits, but a surplus. The VAT is over-hyped, as you have to pay suppliers, who are typically charging VAT,  but you have no VAT you are charging yourselves.

 

Societies are typically also using volunteers to man the supply chain, and there is a limit to just how much you can expect people to do for free. So there is a constraint on the volume of products you can expect to supply.

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While redundancy is not a nice thing to happen to anyone, it is not a "kick in the teeth" but the reality of trying to sell a business on. 

 

Having had 1st hand experience after 20 years service, I'm not so sure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're accusing a bloke who's had a major medical operation go horribly wrong, leading to a lifetime of pain, forcing him to give up his beloved business, of kicking his employees in the teeth.

I'm sure that's exactly what Pete wanted from his life.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Mike.

Annoyed, cos it's only bloody toy trains.

That's absolutely what I am saying!   It might only be toy trains to you.  I wish I could elaborate more on the whole truth of the situation but I'm going to draw a line under my input before I get really annoyed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's absolutely what I am saying!   It might only be toy trains to you.  I wish I could elaborate more on the whole truth of the situation but I'm going to draw a line under my input before I get really annoyed.

Again, my sympathies for your situation, Rob. I am fortunate enough to be aware that there is more to this than might meet the eye of the casual observer, but it is clearly for you or others more closely affected to elaborate, should they wish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can certainly testify to how quickly things can change.

 

About 7 years ago the company I worked for set up an agreement with a medical implant company to resell one of their implants for use with a surgical navigation system we'd created. This was supposed to guarantee our company's future (or at least extend it until another of our projects came to fruition).

 

A few weeks later another implant company unexpectedly (at least to us) bought them out and cancelled the deal - they were primarily interested in acquiring the rights to a different implant in their range. No more lifeline and a month later redundancy letters went out to most of our company, including me. Fortunately I was back in a new job within a couple of months.

 

Hopefully those being made redundant at C&L will be as lucky and find new work soon.

 

 

Sadly there are a lot of greedy folk out there running businesses and seem to make money asset stripping and causing misery to many workers.

 

With C&L things are different in so much Peter bought the business to develop it. Sadly things including his health various things have conspired against him, and knowing Peter, he would have liked things to have turned out differently. My thoughts and best wishes go out to all who are affected  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's absolutely what I am saying!   It might only be toy trains to you.  I wish I could elaborate more on the whole truth of the situation but I'm going to draw a line under my input before I get really annoyed.

 

 

Rob

 

I and I guess all of the RMweb community wish you and the rest of the staff all the best for the future, it must be very distressing for all. Lets hope all the bad news has ended and things will get much better for all over the coming days and weeks. Our thoughts are with you all 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Redundancy is only "a kick in the teeth" if the employer doesn't give a sh**.

In this case, I think the employer most certainly does care and the loss of livelihoods will weigh heavily on Pete's mind. As has been said, I wish Pete well, and of course I hope those out of work will find something new asap.

It's life... bad things happen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's absolutely what I am saying!   It might only be toy trains to you.  I wish I could elaborate more on the whole truth of the situation but I'm going to draw a line under my input before I get really annoyed.

For whatever reason the business is being sold, and the reality is that any new owner has to look at what they can afford to run until product lines are re-established. Taking on 5 staff would mean they would have to commit to approx £75-100,000 outgoings in one year (wages, employer NI contributions, insurance, accounting fees) when they are not taking all the range.

 

I have sympathy with you for the loss of your job, but sh1t happens in life that you can do nothing about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a modelling front it is a relief that the supply of parts will continue to be available and lets hope a bright new dawn for the range will emerge.

 

Let's hope that is the case. The worry in all this from a modelling point of view is that there is no done deal for C&L yet. If the propsed sale doesn't go through (and until it's actually signed that could well happen) then C&L could close for good come April. 

 

Justin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's hope that is the case. The worry in all this from a modelling point of view is that there is no done deal for C&L yet. If the propsed sale doesn't go through (and until it's actually signed that could well happen) then C&L could close for good come April. 

 

Justin

Justin

 

With the little I know what ever is the outcome the range will continue to be available, there may be a time when there is a delay or shortages, but I am certain it would continue under new management/ownership

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's hope that is the case. The worry in all this from a modelling point of view is that there is no done deal for C&L yet. If the propsed sale doesn't go through (and until it's actually signed that could well happen) then C&L could close for good come April. 

 

Justin

That certainly could be the case Justin. One has just to think of the many specialist suppliers that have been sold on with great expectations for the future and then they've disappeared into the proverbial black hole. The likes of Craftsman and Sharman wheels come to mind. l'm sure that there are those on here who would remember more.

 

l think we all would sincerely hope that this won't happen here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

It's very noble of you to explain to these societies which you won't join exactly how they should protect your access to things they don't own or control. I'm sure they'll fall over themselves to comply.

 

I  am a member of several actually , dont get snotty 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For whatever reason the business is being sold, and the reality is that any new owner has to look at what they can afford to run until product lines are re-established. Taking on 5 staff would mean they would have to commit to approx £75-100,000 outgoings in one year (wages, employer NI contributions, insurance, accounting fees) when they are not taking all the range.

 

I have sympathy with you for the loss of your job, but sh1t happens in life that you can do nothing about.

yes , but one would expect that the business has a sales income that is supporting the current level of turnover, the only reason a prospective buyer would scale it back so dramatically , is (a) lack of capital , to fund immediate cashflow or (b) the business is not covering its overheads at all.  Otherwise you throw away sales by being unable to handle the volume of orders consistent with the turnover.  in fact " downscaling " a business is more difficult then expanding it in my experience ( 32 years owning a business) .  The danger is that sales fall away causing a vicious circle to develop. 

Edited by Junctionmad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I think I'll wait for some proper news. I don't think all this speculation is doing anyone any favours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i see no reason , why someone building finescale track should not have to join , it they need access to certain components. 

 

The point you seemed to be making was that societies should take over the supply (and by implication limit that supply to society members) of what are currently available over the counter (or by post) to anybody. My point was that something currently commercially available should not suddenly become limited to a subscription only society's sales, particularly if there is some question over which society for a particular scale would provide those parts, which might not be the gauge you model in.

 

I have no problem with particular societies providing their own specific tools and components to members only, as long as the freedom of anybody to buy commercially available parts remains. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes , but one would expect that the business has a sales income that is supporting the current level of turnover, the only reason a prospective buyer would scale it back so dramatically , is (a) lack of capital , to fund immediate cashflow or (b) the business is not covering its overheads at all.  Otherwise you throw away sales by being unable to handle the volume of orders consistent with the turnover.  in fact " downscaling " a business is more difficult then expanding it in my experience ( 32 years owning a business) .  The danger is that sales fall away causing a vicious circle to develop. 

From the press release

 

The business format will change and will be downsizing in so much as there will no longer be a shop, and as a result it will not be possible to continue selling Peco products.

 

To me this means that they are pulling back from a larger retail operation, I'd also wonder that they are taking into account the new BH track from Peco and how it might affect (if it hasn't already) sales of C&L's own BH track.

 

I'd also say there is another reason for the purchaser wanting to scale back and it is not lack of cash, but wanting to concentrate on just one set of specific products that have been the core products.

 

With the new business rates about to take effect that could have another bearing on not wanting to take on retail premises, as an example the Shop to House conversion I own at present had a rates bill last year of £2110, this year it's been 'adjusted' and is now £3651, a 60% increase. Thats a lot of product that has to be shifted to cover the overhead. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.