Stoke Courtenay

[The Stationmaster]

A minor point - no side lamps on the coal empties brake van and a white tail lamp - GWR white tail lamps didn't come in in until late 1936.

[checkrail]

Thanks Mike.  Not very well up on the protocols for side lamps.  Must do some research.  Any advice on these welcome.

 

On the tail lamp colour I think I'm in the clear.  My layout's period is 1938/9.

 

 

[The Fatadder]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

A minor point - no side lamps on the coal empties brake van and a white tail lamp - GWR white tail lamps didn't come in in until late 1936.

Is it all workings which should have lamps on the side plus the tail lamp or just on the mainline?

[checkrail]

On 30/07/2021 at 23:35, Bulwell Hall said:

You only have to look at the few genuine pre-war colour views to see the differences in shades of brown - and cream - to be seen on GWR coaches.  David Jenkinson's  'Big Four in Colour' has a number of views that shew the variations to be seen and this book has became almost a bible to me in my efforts to get an authentic appearance to trains.

I agree - it's a 'must have' book.  And, I guess, about all we've got to go on.  But I have to say, adly, that variations in the coach cream are more obvious than any in the brown.  All down to it being the 'Age of Soot'.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

Is it all workings which should have lamps on the side plus the tail lamp or just on the mainline?

Both, but they change colour when you move off the main line.

Best not to light them!

I used to know how they changed depending whether you were adjacent to the main or further away.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Is it all workings which should have lamps on the side plus the tail lamp or just on the mainline?

On the GWR at that time all freight trains of all classes with a freight brake van at the rear had to carry a tail lamp and two side lights.  the side lights - which I'm reasonably sure w had black cases by then showed a red light to the rear and a white light to the front.  On double line - such as Stoke Courtenay - all three showed the normal three reds to the rear however if a train was on an adjacent Relief or Goods Line the side lamp nearest to the Main Line had the red shade removed to show a white light to the rear.  

 

(There were various other combinations which won't involve your layout.)

[checkrail]

I've said before that my two favourite loco types are small prairies and castles.  Here's one of each, caught from several camera angles at the same moment in an everyday Stoke Courtenay manoeuvre.  5557 has brought the branch train in from Earlsbridge and moved forward into the loco spur to take on water and to keep out of the way.  Now 5041 'Tiverton Castle' is backing into the branch platform to pick up the returning Earlsbridge through coach, before attaching it to the front of its own train for its onward journey to Paddington.

 

 

 

 

John C.

[KNP]

Lovely pictures John.....you can almost smell the steam from here!

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, checkrail said:

I've said before that my two favourite loco types are small prairies and castles.  Here's one of each, caught from several camera angles at the same moment in an everyday Stoke Courtenay manoeuvre.  5557 has brought the branch train in from Earlsbridge and moved forward into the loco spur to take on water and to keep out of the way.  Now 5041 'Tiverton Castle' is backing into the branch platform to pick up the returning Earlsbridge through coach, before attaching it to the front of its own train for its onward journey to Paddington.

 

 

 

 

John C.

Of course, the signalling arrangements at Stoke Courtenay are probably slightly different from the real Brent, but that resurrects a conundrum that I have also yet to solve for Porthmellyn Road/Par - namely propelling the through coach(es) over points that are not fitted with facing point locks.

 

Anyone out there know how through coaches were dealt with at either or both locations?

[The Fatadder]

45 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Of course, the signalling arrangements at Stoke Courtenay are probably slightly different from the real Brent, but that resurrects a conundrum that I have also yet to solve for Porthmellyn Road/Par - namely propelling the through coach(es) over points that are not fitted with facing point locks.

 

Anyone out there know how through coaches were dealt with at either or both locations?

For Brent this photo helps

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-other-tank-engines/i-KVcBx68

 

to quote Mike Roach

”The train would have arrived in its normal platform in Brent.  It would then have propelled its coaches out towards Newton Abbot over the crossover and onto the up main before working its train westwards through the up platform and into the up loop.”

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

For Brent this photo helps

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-other-tank-engines/i-KVcBx68

 

to quote Mike Roach

”The train would have arrived in its normal platform in Brent.  It would then have propelled its coaches out towards Newton Abbot over the crossover and onto the up main before working its train westwards through the up platform and into the up loop.”

 

Rich, that makes it even more intriguing! If I follow that move on the 1963 signalling diagram (sorry, can't reproduce it for copyright reasons) it means passing over 3 points in the facing direction that have no FPLs. Presumably after that the train would be propelled on to the rear of the main line train once it had arrived. Would the branch passnegers have had to detrain, cross the footbridge and board the combined train again? The photo implies not.

 

It would seem to have been more logical for the main line train to draw forward to the Up Advanced starter and the branch coaches to be propelled directly on to its rear.

 

Short answer: I've no idea!

[Siberian Snooper]

That seems to be a conundrum that the Stationmaster may be able to answer.

 

 

[37Oban]

8 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

For Brent this photo helps

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-other-tank-engines/i-KVcBx68

 

to quote Mike Roach

”The train would have arrived in its normal platform in Brent.  It would then have propelled its coaches out towards Newton Abbot over the crossover and onto the up main before working its train westwards through the up platform and into the up loop.”

 

Hi,

 

I am no expert on such matters, but having experience a similar situation many years ago at New Holland Town station with the Barton branch train, I would assume the passengers would have to disembark, for safety and insurance reasons, then regain the train after the shunt was completed.  I would also assume the points were clamped/padlocked, although this may not be necessary as the shunt would only involve empty stock.

 

Roja

[checkrail]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Of course, the signalling arrangements at Stoke Courtenay are probably slightly different from the real Brent,

Indeed, and that goes for the track layout too.  My branch line runs off in in the opposite direction for a start.  I've glossed over the matter of FPLs entirely - my track layout is rather 19th century in that regard -  but I see what you mean about propelling  stock over trailing crossovers.     I'm also aware that my signalling probably should include various calling on arms and the like.  But I'm a great believer in the old adage, "simplify and omit" - i.e. lazy.

 

The manoeuvre shown in recent pics is guesswork, but based on a caption in John Hodge's 'Great Western Pictorial No. 2: The Hubback Collection', p75.  Under a photo of a King at the head of an up Perranporth-Paddington train near Charlton, c.1937, it states, "The last station call of this train was Brent, where the scheduled Truro 4-6-0, which had worked through, was believed to have been changed for the 'King'. Sometimes eastbound trains stopping at North Road station changed locomotives at Laira Jct., though in this instance it may have been felt more efficient to change at Brent, where the two Kingsbridge vehicles (Van Third, Compo) were also attached to the front of the train."

 

Good to see some discussion about this since my last post.

 

John C.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, checkrail said:

Indeed, and that goes for the track layout too.  My branch line runs off in in the opposite direction for a start.  I've glossed over the matter of FPLs entirely - my track layout is rather 19th century in that regard -  but I see what you mean about propelling  stock over trailing crossovers.     I'm also aware that my signalling probably should include various calling on arms and the like.  But I'm a great believer in the old adage, "simplify and omit" - i.e. lazy.

 

The manoeuvre shown in recent pics is guesswork, but based on a caption in John Hodge's 'Great Western Pictorial No. 2: The Hubback Collection', p75.  Under a photo of a King at the head of an up Perranporth-Paddington train near Charlton, c.1937, it states, "The last station call of this train was Brent, where the scheduled Truro 4-6-0, which had worked through, was believed to have been changed for the 'King'. Sometimes eastbound trains stopping at North Road station changed locomotives at Laira Jct., though in this instance it may have been felt more efficient to change at Brent, where the two Kingsbridge vehicles (Van Third, Compo) were also attached to the front of the train."

 

Good to see some discussion about this since my last post.

 

John C.

Yes, John, I knew you'd turned the station back to front. Either way, the FPL conundrum would still apply. You'll be pleased to know, though, that there were no calling-on arms at Brent!

[The Stationmaster]

G'day all (Good Evening Australia),

 

As far asBrent is concerned ogically (but we are talking about the Western so it could well not be in the least logical) the simplest move is for the engine of the Up train to pull forward, reverse into the branch platform to attach the coaches and then shunt them onto the front of its train (this latter move is over a point without an FPL).   Simple and quick provided no other trains are about to interfere with the move - which latter might explain the downright illogical way things were (?sometimes?) done at Brent.   Although equally for whatever reason the coach working programme might have required the branch coaches to be attached rear, instead of front, on the main line train.

There was a falling gradient towards Newton on the Up Line at Brent (but it was not a 'steep' gradient) and there appear to have been no Instructions regarding the working in consequence of that.

 

Now to points without FPLs and trains etc conveying passengers.  Little known fact - it was perfectly permissible to shunt a vehicle containing passengers over a point without an FPL provided the point was detected by a signal, including a ground disc.  The Instruction was hidden away deep in the 1960 General Appendix but did not appear in the GWR 1936 Appendix.  However I was taught a very long time ago by a very experienced District Inspector that you should always clip the points as well especially when shunting trains or long rafts of loaded coaches because detection, in his view, was not the safest way of doing the job,  and the point could in any case could still be moved under the coaches if the signal was replaced to danger.  

 

Don't forget that back in the days of the late steam era staffing on the ground was still plentiful so somebody could probably be called upon to clip up points although that would involve a fair bit of walking and work for that shunting move at Brent using the Up Loop.

 

Whether the Instruction was too deeply hidden for some is a debatable point as many railwaymen I knew over the years had never come across it but some very definitely must have as I was on a DMU shunted to pick up a loaded Conflat at Churston one Bank Holiday Monday and there was no sign of anybody clipping the points for that move.

[checkrail]

More angles on the same moves as 5041 reverses past 5557.  In the first pic the castle almost completely obscures the prairie.

 

 

Meanwhile their trains sit in the platforms patiently awaiting the return of their engines, if you'll forgive a little Awdry-esque anthropomorphism.

 

John C.

[checkrail]

10 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far asBrent is concerned ogically (but we are talking about the Western so it could well not be in the least logical) the simplest move is for the engine of the Up train to pull forward, reverse into the branch platform to attach the coaches and then shunt them onto the front of its train (this latter move is over a point without an FPL).  

 

Thanks Mike for that most informative post.  Ii did seem unlikely to me that any such move would require the passengers to temporarily disembark before the shunt - it would negate the the whole concept of a through coach!

[St Enodoc]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Little known fact - it was perfectly permissible to shunt a vehicle containing passengers over a point without an FPL provided the point was detected by a signal, including a ground disc.  The Instruction was hidden away deep in the 1960 General Appendix but did not appear in the GWR 1936 Appendix.

I think it also said "under the direct supervision of the signalman" or words to that effect. That would work at Brent but probably not at the Up end of Par, as we've discussed before.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Looked at from a modern perspective it might seem odd to have carriages attached to the rear of an Up train and also to the rear of a Down train. We are used to trains arriving at their London terminus and being rapidly serviced before departing again.

 

But back then, trains would be taken away to carriage sidings for servicing and carriages could be shunted into the correct position in the train so as to be in the right position at the junction station. 

[checkrail]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Looked at from a modern perspective it might seem odd to have carriages attached to the rear of an Up train and also to the rear of a Down train.

Yes, and that was in my mind when thinking through the routine by which the down Earlsbridge through coach arrives at Stoke C.  at the rear of a down passenger train but for its return is attached to the front of an up train.  Stoke C. has roughly the same layout as Brent, albeit somewhat simplified, and isn't a mirror image.  The main difference is that the 'down' direction on the prototype is 'up' in my scheme, and vice versa. So my fictitious Earlsbridge branch goes off to the north of the mainline, rather than the south like Kingsbridge.  

[checkrail]

Having retrieved the through coach 5041 now propels it back towards the front of its train.  5557 can be seen in the background, now clear to run round the branch B set.  Those two chaps on the station approach have been chatting away for ages (about 8 years I think) and seem oblivious to the excitement going on above.  Obviously not railway enthusiasts.

 

 

 

John C.

[Mike_Walker]

This picture might be of interest.  It shows 5573 propelling the through coaches to Paddington off the 10:50 from Kingsbridge onto the Up Main at Brent.  It would then run-round before taking them on to Newton Abbott where, presumably, they would be combined with a portion off the Torbay branch. 24 June 1961 apparently.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Harlequin]

7 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

This picture might be of interest.  It shows 5573 propelling the through coaches to Paddington off the 10:50 from Kingsbridge onto the Up Main at Brent.  It would then run-round before taking them on to Newton Abbott where, presumably, they would be combined with a portion off the Torbay branch. 24 June 1961 apparently.

 

 

Is that someone crouching over the near crossover points? Possibly unclipping them???

 

(A good pose for a new Modelu figure. )

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[gwrrob]

At least the lychgate is still there today.