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New Crowdfunded Class 86 or Class 87


DJM Dave

OO Class 86 or 87 Crowdfunded  

280 members have voted

  1. 1. OO gauge Class 86 or 87 crowdfunded. You decide!

    • Would you like a crowdfunded 86?
    • Would you like a crowdfunded 87?


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Looking at the voting figures it's looking remarkably similar to the referendum.

 

Could this vote lead to a similar situation of unrest in the model world?

 

Could Andy York be forced to resign with a leadership bid from Adrian BS?

 

Could Dave be forced into a second vote?

 

What sort of havoc are you wreaking upon us.

 

Nik

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I'd love both of these models to be honest. I think that if the Class 86 were to be done to a high standard initially, a high standard Class 87 would sell very well afterwards. As someone has said, the interest is pretty even on both. 

 

I also can't imagine I'm the only one who will want more than one of each Class. I would definitely purchase an Intercity and Virgin liveried Class 86s as well as 87s bringing my total up to 4 if both projects were to go through!

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Looking at the voting figures it's looking remarkably similar to the referendum.

 

Could this vote lead to a similar situation of unrest in the model world?

 

Could Andy York be forced to resign with a leadership bid from Adrian BS?

 

Could Dave be forced into a second vote?

 

What sort of havoc are you wreaking upon us.

 

Nik

 

I'm suffering regret for my vote already. Although in fact I can't remember which I actually voted for. Was it the 86 because I want an 86/0, or the 87 because we don't have one at all except the ancient Lima one.

 

Chris

 

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I have waited for what seems forever for someone to produce a Class 86 and 87 to a decent standard. So I am overjoyed at the prospect of a new AC electric on the market!

 

I would have both, but my preference is for the 87 first....followed by the 86.   I have the Bachmann 85, which is truly brilliant, so I am keen to add to my list of AC electrics at Dean Park Station (see youtube)

 

As for the pantograph.....I don't want a motorised one, I want one that can have its height adjusted, so its not just fully UP, or completely DOWN.   I use the Dapol masts and despite setting them to the correct scale height I still find I have to set my class 85 pantograph to a 3/4 height to avoid the masts.   I have done this with a bit of thin wire hooked in the pantograph mechanism, but would welcome a pantograph that was able to be set at 2-3 height settings.  

 

Unless of course the motorised pantograph could be adjusted in a similar way???

 

I welcome your thoughts.

 

Dave

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As for the pantograph.....I don't want a motorised one, I want one that can have its height adjusted, so its not just fully UP, or completely DOWN.   I use the Dapol masts and despite setting them to the correct scale height I still find I have to set my class 85 pantograph to a 3/4 height to avoid the masts.   I have done this with a bit of thin wire hooked in the pantograph mechanism, but would welcome a pantograph that was able to be set at 2-3 height settings.  

 

Unless of course the motorised pantograph could be adjusted in a similar way???

 

I welcome your thoughts.

 

Dave

If the pantograph is motorised with a servo you can set the height it goes to when raised.

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Looking at the voting figures it's looking remarkably similar to the referendum.

 

Could this vote lead to a similar situation of unrest in the model world?

 

Could Andy York be forced to resign with a leadership bid from Adrian BS?

 

Could Dave be forced into a second vote?

 

What sort of havoc are you wreaking upon us.

 

Nik

.

 

What ???  Did the Brexiteers lie when they said we would have £350 Million per week

to spend on new model railway items ?

 

And I had made out such a long wishlist.

 

Anyway.  I'm looking forward to further announcements about the 86 and 87.

 

Pete M.

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I'm suffering regret for my vote already. Although in fact I can't remember which I actually voted for. Was it the 86 because I want an 86/0, or the 87 because we don't have one at all except the ancient Lima one.

 

Chris

 

If you scroll to the top of the page, there's a little blue star telling me which I voted for. Unless it's for multiple working...?

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If you scroll to the top of the page, there's a little blue star telling me which I voted for. Unless it's for multiple working...?

 

So there is. I went for the 86. It would certainly save me having to tke a Heljan one back to 1960s condition.

 

Chris

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The Fell, now your talking my language. Would be interested in that!

So would I. There was a nice and steady little stream appearing of weirdos one-off prototypes until Heljan discovered 0 scale.

 

A curious thing about the Fell: all the driving wheels were initially coupled until it was discovered that the centre pair of rods were in conflict with the internal transmission, whereupon they were removed.

 

I feel there’s a lesson there for a certain producer of Adams O2s. Given that the coupling rods must be present, getting rid of the internal gearing would seem a sensible step. In conjunction, of course, with eliminating slop in the side rods.

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Hi everyone

Well i've just had the final quotes in from China and to be honest they are frightening. Mostly based on the fact that the costs due to Brexit panic affecting the exchange rate awfully, have affected things very badly.

 

So although i'm not at this stage going to tell you costs, i'm going to ask a crucial question.

 

Based on Metal sprung scale panto, PluX22 DCC, large speaker space, etched grilles, close coupling mechanism, sprung buffers, all the lights you could ever want controllable from DCC or by switches underneath the chassis, etched wipers, metal handrails, fully detailed cab, etched nameplates (where applicable) and a wealth of other details.....what would you be willing to pay?

 

Yes i know, there will be a myriad of answers but based on these answers will be whether i consider it a viable business proposition right from the start or if i decide to try and be altruistic on the hope that any shortfall pays back over the longer term.

 

Over to you guys, and please......there's no right or wrong answer to this question.

cheers

Dave

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Sorry if this has been asked and answered before but would there a choice of gauge? If it's like the SLW 24 with an em choice I'd be willing to pay for that. Wouldn't know where to start price wise though I'll let other people throw that in.

 

Cheers

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"Would you like opening cab doors with that...?"

 

TBH, if cost is such an issue, I'm sure a few features could be dropped- I can't see the point in having sprung buffers as it isn't a type that see a lot of loose link shunting (apart from perhaps an AL6 in early condition on a vac pickup freight) and there aren't any grills that need to be see through although poseable rheo fan covers would require etched louvres.

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The challenge for me is that I make almost immediate comparison to the 71 which I think has been priced well for a limited geography and region specific loco that I can't justify having more than one or two of, so I'm willing to pay a bit more than usual.

 

For an 86 or 87, I'd gladly replace all of my old Hornby / Lima versions. Just counted and that is over 20 locos... Do I need that many? Of course not, but if I did replace them all, at say £150 per loco (which I am guessing is a reasonable estimate based on recent currency movements), that's over £3k. Gulp.

 

Thia would lead me to think that it would be better to invest in tooling for one or the other rather than both. Doing both would increase tooling costs while the revenue may be no higher as people would just spread the money available to them.

 

So which one? Well the 86 has a lot of liveries available and so that provides a lot of options. But... The Heljan one had a decent mechanism and I suspect that many people (granted not all) are happy enough with it despite its faults to keep their versions. Heljan also still have the tools I assume and so could issue more at anytime thereby diluting the market.

 

The 87 on the other hand has never been produced with a modern mechanism / chassis and still had a very decent number of livery options, so I think I'd go for that at c.£145 max if at all possible. Even better if it could match the 71 crowd funding price. As already mentioned, no cab door opening, no sprung buffers,

 

Just some thoughts which might not be of any use!

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Hi everyone

Well i've just had the final quotes in from China and to be honest they are frightening. Mostly based on the fact that the costs due to Brexit panic affecting the exchange rate awfully, have affected things very badly.

 

So although i'm not at this stage going to tell you costs, i'm going to ask a crucial question.

 

Based on Metal sprung scale panto, PluX22 DCC, large speaker space, etched grilles, close coupling mechanism, sprung buffers, all the lights you could ever want controllable from DCC or by switches underneath the chassis, etched wipers, metal handrails, fully detailed cab, etched nameplates (where applicable) and a wealth of other details.....what would you be willing to pay?

 

Yes i know, there will be a myriad of answers but based on these answers will be whether i consider it a viable business proposition right from the start or if i decide to try and be altruistic on the hope that any shortfall pays back over the longer term.

 

Over to you guys, and please......there's no right or wrong answer to this question.

cheers

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

I'd happily save and pay something around the £160 (+ or - £10) mark.

 

And just adding my personal views:-

- Plastic pantograph is sufficient, as long as it's robust. Sprung means it needs modification to reach your desired height, something like the Dapol N gauge one is my choice.

- In a Plux22 DCC decoder is going to cost a bit more, I'd be happy with a standard 8-pin/21-pin decoder where we all have a variety to choose from.

- I cannot think of many grilles on a Class 86 or Class 87 that need to be etched?

- Sprung buffers aren't necessary.

- The number of working lights could be reduced to it's bare minimum (i.e. working head and tail lights and maybe cab lights)

- Etched nameplates (where applicable), as it literally means not all will need them, so why not leave it to a 3rd party/cottage industry to do. We already know a great place for nameplates.

 

And as I've put forth my fears before, how can I guarantee I'll get the livery I want? Obviously you'll have to have a certain minimum to do a particular livery.

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Hi Dave,

 

I'd happily save and pay something around the £160 (+ or - £10) mark.

 

And just adding my personal views:-

- Plastic pantograph is sufficient, as long as it's robust. Sprung means it needs modification to reach your desired height, something like the Dapol N gauge one is my choice.

- In a Plux22 DCC decoder is going to cost a bit more, I'd be happy with a standard 8-pin/21-pin decoder where we all have a variety to choose from.

- I cannot think of many grilles on a Class 86 or Class 87 that need to be etched?

- Sprung buffers aren't necessary.

- The number of working lights could be reduced to it's bare minimum (i.e. working head and tail lights and maybe cab lights)

- Etched nameplates (where applicable), as it literally means not all will need them, so why not leave it to a 3rd party/cottage industry to do. We already know a great place for nameplates.

 

And as I've put forth my fears before, how can I guarantee I'll get the livery I want? Obviously you'll have to have a certain minimum to do a particular livery.

Ok, thanks for your thoughts and I also welcome others.

I'd only be interested in doing the best I can with this model and I don't see 8 pin DCC as something I'd like with the loco to be honest. Metal sprung panto will suit those with catenary much better I think, and as for guaranteeing your choice of livery? Simply put, you can't, unless you want to get together with 199 other people and order a specific style and colour. Sorry.

Cheers

Dave

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I think opening doors, operating pantographs (using servos to raise and lower) and sprung buffers are not needed IMO and I would no be disappointed if they were left off.  I think 21pin would suit as suggested it gives us options on manufacturers to choose from.  As to price well that has to be based on what it costs to manufacturer and still make a profit but without the customer feeling gouged.  Only you can answer that. What I would be prepared to pay would to some degree depend on what the final product looked like. 

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Dave,

 

It’s a difficult question to answer. You have set out a very good specification but I have no idea what the running or the finish would be like. I’d have a better idea when I have my 71. The trouble is, I already have 86s and 87s and a new one would have to be free of what, from my idiosyncratic standpoint, are shortcomings in order to persuade me to take the plunge.

 

I’d agree with MGR Hooper that 21-pin would be better than PluX. The 21-pin arrangement persists whilst PluX seems to have been left behind by Next 18.

 

PjKing1 mentioned SLW. If the 86/87 were to match the standard of the SLW 24 in all respects (but improve on the finish*), then I’d go to £160 but I’d much rather have it cheaper! The cheaper it is, the more likely I’d be to buy more than one. Like amwells, I can dream of the £125 the 71 was offered for!

 

Oxford Rail seems to have managed a deal to offer fully specified sound for a premium of £70, which is much better than the usual £100 upwards. Could you negotiate a deal of this sort to sweeten the pill?

 

I suppose you’ll spend the night tossing and turning! Good luck with it!

 

*In fairness to SLW, Philip intended to portray a work-worn locomotive. An ex-works finish would be much more enticing but that’s only my personal view. Dapol JA (73) rather than Western.

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SLW is the benchmark . Admittedly that's pre Brexit , but exchange rates are fluid, I still think you'd need to come in on the £120-£160 range. Suggest cutting specification to suit. Lights yes, but operating pantographs, opening doors........no . It needs to be dimensionally correct and run well reliably

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Hi Dave,

 

I reckon price should be around the £150 mark depending on what features are used on the model. Also dependent on how many are made available. 

 

If the Class 86 and 87 are very similar could you use slides in the tooling so that both could be made without the need for two separate tools similar to the way that you have done on the Class 71/74 model.

 

Have a 21 Pin connection not a PluX22.

 

Keep majority of the lights (Cab, Corridor and Directional) but perhaps leave out the spark effect LED.

 

IMO i don't think there is a need for opening doors. Also the operational pantograph would be nice but i think it would be too much to include it in the model unless it only put the price up a little bit.

 

Samuel.

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As has been stated by several others, things that can be omitted or not required could be thus

Sprung or operating panto

Sprung buffers

Etched grilles (bodyside)

Opening doors.

 

Must have's

 

Correct body shape- has to absolutely 100% visually and dimensionally correct

Era specific details

Correct livery elements

Reliable mechanism

Correct style lighting for period - no bright LEDs for locos running without high intensity headlights

 

Whether or not it is achievable to keep costs 'affordable' remains to be seen but if it has the character of the chosen prototype I would happily pay whatever the cost is but may only have the one, as I suspect many other would. I don't 'need' half a dozen or 86xxx to be produced. I would settle for one that corrects all the misgivings of previous models.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

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I'm confused as to how people are defining an "operating photograph", not least because there are three different types. I'd expect it to follow the standard set by the Bachmann 85 (but without the faults) and Continental models in having it made of metal and with an enhanced upward pressure that would invariably need altering for finescale catenary and easily modified should it be required to pick up from the OHLE. Lastly, I'd hope that they were available as a spare.

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Hi everyone

Well i've just had the final quotes in from China and to be honest they are frightening. Mostly based on the fact that the costs due to Brexit panic affecting the exchange rate awfully, have affected things very badly.

 

So although i'm not at this stage going to tell you costs, i'm going to ask a crucial question.

 

Based on Metal sprung scale panto, PluX22 DCC, large speaker space, etched grilles, close coupling mechanism, sprung buffers, all the lights you could ever want controllable from DCC or by switches underneath the chassis, etched wipers, metal handrails, fully detailed cab, etched nameplates (where applicable) and a wealth of other details.....what would you be willing to pay?

 

Yes i know, there will be a myriad of answers but based on these answers will be whether i consider it a viable business proposition right from the start or if i decide to try and be altruistic on the hope that any shortfall pays back over the longer term.

 

Over to you guys, and please......there's no right or wrong answer to this question.

cheers

Dave

 

Hi Dave: 

 

Metal panto:  Not fussed

21pin DCC is fine

Large speaker space (and ease of installation) - yes please

Etched grilles - yes please

Close coupling - not essential, robustness is more important

Sprung buffers - no point, use the money for other things

Lights - no need for cab or corridor, but proper front and back in authentic colours and levels of lumen, not the oft used blue-white nuclear fusion LEDs usually used.  Fade in and out would be nice if not a major cost.

Etched wipers - yes please

Metal handrails - of course

Detailed cab - yes please

Etched nameplates/arrows/ferret & dartboard/E numbers depending on model: Yes please

 

Just my views.  Price wise, despite probably wanting multiple versions, I'd be comfortable with £150-175 non-DCC sound, and say £200-225 for a sound fitted.  However, at that price, I would appreciate a staggered release programme!

 

For me, gimmicks like opening doors, cab lights and sprung buffers are pointless, but overall shape and a decent pantograph, and accurate livery applications are paramount.

.

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Hi Dave: 

 

Metal panto:  Not fussed

21pin DCC is fine

Large speaker space (and ease of installation) - yes please

Etched grilles - yes please

Close coupling - not essential, robustness is more important

Sprung buffers - no point, use the money for other things

Lights - no need for cab or corridor, but proper front and back in authentic colours and levels of lumen, not the oft used blue-white nuclear fusion LEDs usually used.  Fade in and out would be nice if not a major cost.

Etched wipers - yes please

Metal handrails - of course

Detailed cab - yes please

Etched nameplates/arrows/ferret & dartboard/E numbers depending on model: Yes please

 

Just my views.  Price wise, despite probably wanting multiple versions, I'd be comfortable with £150-175 non-DCC sound, and say £200-225 for a sound fitted.  However, at that price, I would appreciate a staggered release programme!

 

For me, gimmicks like opening doors, cab lights and sprung buffers are pointless, but overall shape and a decent pantograph, and accurate livery applications are paramount.

.

 

Spot on, plus £20-£30 for em or p4 gauge wheels please...

 

Regards

 

Craig

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