A new signal to me.

[Chrom]

This signal is new to me, while I understand the meaning of the two bottom signs the "Dahlia" flower has no meaning. Perhaps someone could enlighten me please. Thanks

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

It's a VMS Lightweight 'Searchlight' signal, being used more and more lately, developed as part of 'Modular' Signalling I believe.

 

The head is capable of showing three of the standard aspects (there are 4 aspect versions as well), using LED arranged in patterns.

 

Simon

[beast66606]

The head is capable of showing three of the standard aspects (there are 4 aspect versions as well), using LED arranged in patterns.

 

 

 

 two or three as shown

[Dunsignalling]

The standard type of signal in use between Wilton Jn and Pinhoe within the recontrol project completed in 2012.

 

One head shows up to three colours but four aspect versions have two heads because you couldn't show a double yellow with only one!.

 

No ladders needed as the signal post can be lowered in the same way as platform lamps for maintenance.

 

Very clever but unfortunately not pretty.

 

John

[russ p]

Horrible things, look more suited to celebrating Christmas than controlling trains!

In BR days signals from all manufacturers would give the same result,nowadays and Tom , dick or harry send to able to produce something that shows red yellow or green and network rail gives them a fortune for them. Each different type has different characteristics in fog and poor visibility and all the LED ones are far to bright in darkness

[Chrom]

Thank you, not on my Christmas list yet.

[The Stationmaster]

They seem to me to give a very strong light, without any sort of beam so I don't know what they're like in fog )or when snow is driving against them).

 

And as it happens I'm still not convinced on the idea of 'taking away' a signal simply in order to maintain it.  Very safe for those working on it but signals weren't intended for people to work on but for Drivers to see and obey.

[Dunsignalling]

They seem to me to give a very strong light, without any sort of beam so I don't know what they're like in fog )or when snow is driving against them).

 

And as it happens I'm still not convinced on the idea of 'taking away' a signal simply in order to maintain it.  Very safe for those working on it but signals weren't intended for people to work on but for Drivers to see and obey.

As I understand it, they may only be lowered to be worked on within a possession or a line blockage protected by functioning signals.

 

Thus (for example) the Down Home at Honiton would only be lowered under the protection of both Down section signals at Axminster West and the Up Main Home at Honiton.

 

EDIT: Bad example as I don't think the down home is actually on this type of post but you get the drift.

 

John

[uax6]

And its NOT a searchlight or even a 'searchlight'. Searchlights have a very highly developed optical system, so that a very low wattage lamp can be seen upto 2 miles away, and will cut through fog with ease. They also only have one lamp.

These things have neither of these things, and I'm guessing that cutting through fog will not be a strong point of these horrible things....

 

Will they also last as long as real searchlights? 50+ years in the case of mine, almost 100 years in continuous production...

 

 

Andy G

[russ p]

Searchlights are an engineering work of art

 

I'm not sure what it is with fog even the LED signals that have lenses disappear in fog, it may be that the frequency of LED light does not penetrate fog like a filament bulb does.

I've raised this with several network rail managers including a saloon full of engineers,no one can give me a definitive answer

[HillsideDepot]

Horrible things, look more suited to celebrating Christmas than controlling trains!

In BR days signals from all manufacturers would give the same result,nowadays and Tom , dick or harry send to able to produce something that shows red yellow or green and network rail gives them a fortune for them. Each different type has different characteristics in fog and poor visibility and all the LED ones are far to bright in darkness

 

That's something I wondered about when I was out and about on the Western over the last few weeks. There seem to be some signals like this, sometimes with two units to display double yellow, others in a rounded plastic head (which possibly came from the Lego catalogue!) again in 1 and 2 light versions, but also available with "feathers" and 2-white light calling-on signals under the main aspect, ones which look like the traditional colour light but with 1 or 2 LED units and a large back board, and finally I saw one which looked like an old head simply with 3 LEDs replacing the three old lamps.

In other words - a right muddle!

My question though, is does this help or hinder drivers? Do the various types aid location identification, or do the various types mixed together make them harder to spot. Whilst I think the example shown above may look horrible, at the end of the day what really matters is that drivers can see them?

 

[Dunsignalling]

And its NOT a searchlight or even a 'searchlight'. Searchlights have a very highly developed optical system, so that a very low wattage lamp can be seen upto 2 miles away, and will cut through fog with ease. They also only have one lamp.

These things have neither of these things, and I'm guessing that cutting through fog will not be a strong point of these horrible things....

 

Will they also last as long as real searchlights? 50+ years in the case of mine, almost 100 years in continuous production...

 

 

Andy G

They hopefully won't need to; lineside signals should be consigned to history in favour of in-cab signalling that isn't affected by weather conditions long before then.

 

John

[russ p]

In cab signalling leaves me even colder!

 

In answer to the earlier question, they do not help the driver at all

[The Stationmaster]

They hopefully won't need to; lineside signals should be consigned to history in favour of in-cab signalling that isn't affected by weather conditions long before then.

 

John

 

Maybe  (if someone can find the money in our brave new world)

That's something I wondered about when I was out and about on the Western over the last few weeks. There seem to be some signals like this, sometimes with two units to display double yellow, others in a rounded plastic head (which possibly came from the Lego catalogue!) again in 1 and 2 light versions, but also available with "feathers" and 2-white light calling-on signals under the main aspect, ones which look like the traditional colour light but with 1 or 2 LED units and a large back board, and finally I saw one which looked like an old head simply with 3 LEDs replacing the three old lamps.

In other words - a right muddle!

My question though, is does this help or hinder drivers? Do the various types aid location identification, or do the various types mixed together make them harder to spot. Whilst I think the example shown above may look horrible, at the end of the day what really matters is that drivers can see them?

 

 

 This is what concerns me about these things - on their own they're (almost) alright although they seem to give a very strong light which is just the way SPADs happen as it's difficult to judge distance to signal.  But mixed with other types - including the toytown like ones which mimic Mickey Mouse's ears I really begin to wonder.

 

BR operated very strict standards for colour light signal colours and also for the brightness of the light and shape of the beam.  Those standards seem to have gone the same way as the bloke who was the expert in that field.

[russ p]

At Peterborough three adjacent roads have three different signals, filament, LED with lense the LED array

On the ECML pairs have been replaced with seemingly a random selection of these types.

So in fog you must get hold of your train as as there are so many of signals you can't relie on the fact that it was a filament bulb signal last time you past ,it could now be an LED type so not penetrating the fog very much

[brian daniels]

As an old fart driver I hate these LED things. The Dormon (I think that's the ones) are far too bright that I either shut my eyes or have to look away, how safe is that? I hate driving in the dark now. But nobody will worry about what I have to say about them. To be honest it's little things like this that make me want to pack it in after 42 years.

[bourneagain]

An accident waiting to happen?

Is it that some Accountant has sat with his calculator and found that by installing these types of signals it could save Network Rail (ie Government Transport Dept) so many pounds a year? I`m sorry to say in many cases money savings outweigh any practical problems that are highlighted and these just fall on deaf ears, that is, until things go horribly wrong. Then guess where the blame ends up - on the poor driver who misread the signal.     

Who manufactures them? Is a British or EU Company?

Are they being installed on any of the EU railways?

[royaloak]

As I understand it, they may only be lowered to be worked on within a possession or a line blockage protected by functioning signals.

 

Thus (for example) the Down Home at Honiton would only be lowered under the protection of both Down section signals at Axminster West and the Up Main Home at Honiton.

 

EDIT: Bad example as I don't think the down home is actually on this type of post but you get the drift.

 

John

Best not mention the three (I think it was) that decided to lower themselves because a bit of a breeze got up! 

[royaloak]

They hopefully won't need to; lineside signals should be consigned to history in favour of in-cab signalling that isn't affected by weather conditions long before then.

 

John

Any idea about likely timescales, bearing in mind there are still quite a few semaphore signals about!

 

I reckon we are stuck with these cheap, nasty, horrible 'signals' for some time to come!

[Dunsignalling]

Any idea about likely timescales, bearing in mind there are still quite a few semaphore signals about!

 

I reckon we are stuck with these cheap, nasty, horrible 'signals' for some time to come!

If, as rumoured, the Cornwall job is being pushed back to the late twenties, it might go straight from lower quadrant semaphores to in-cab signalling.

[uax6]

It appears that there is a purge on Semaphores, as the resignallings that seem to be pressing ahead appear to be aimed at semaphore areas. Which probably means that yet more of these 'things' will be installed.

 

Interestingly they are supposed to be designed as being modular, so when they go faulty you just drop the post and then change the whole thing (post and all) out. It doesn't appear that this is the case in practise.....

 

As for 'cab' signalling, whenever Crossrail gets going.....

 

Andy G

[royaloak]

Searchlights are an engineering work of art

 

I'm not sure what it is with fog even the LED signals that have lenses disappear in fog, it may be that the frequency of LED light does not penetrate fog like a filament bulb does.

I've raised this with several network rail managers including a saloon full of engineers,no one can give me a definitive answer

Did they even acknowledge the problem?

[russ p]

They said they would look into it....

Apparently it is a known problem but network rail probably have a lower electric bill so will be happy with them

[stewartingram]

Speaking as one who works in electronics, and not a signal engineer or a driver, can I add a few points about LEDs?

 

Compared to a filament bulb, the LED has a narrow "beam" pattern. Just look at the rear lights of a modern car; basically you can only see them from more or less straight ahead. If the "beam" angle is increased, the power of the light emitted is dispersed over a greater angle, so it does not appear as bright. (There is no real beam as such but I am using the term to keep it simple). With a filament bulb, the light is emitted in all directions (except of course through the base and contacts), then is concentrated into a beam by the reflector, and can be further improved by the glass optics in front of the bulb. The LED is basically a flat piece of silicon which glows; with no reflector, and limited optics moulded on it to disperse the light within a specified angle.

A bulb emits light over a wide frequency spectrum, the LED emits light only over a very narrow frequency band. Hence the light from an LED appears very bright though it doesn't have the penetrating power over distance. Again compare with those awful DRLs on the front of modern cars. Absolutely blinding to look at but little real useful illumination power to see with.

The filament bulb is basically (impure) white, any colour has to be added through optics placed in front of it. The LED emits light at a defined frequency ( ie a specified colour). They can be constructed with more than one piece of silicon within the actual LED, each piece will emit a different colour. (ie dual red and green). Just think of them as multiple bulbs within the same housing, and separate wiring to each.

Advantages of the LED include much longer life; bulbs are prone to failure as they run very hot and are fragile. LEDs consume much less current, so the cables to an LED can be thinner and cheaper, and power supply needed will be much less. Therefore installation, running costs, and maintenance costrs are much reduced.

 

Having seen the introduction of LEDs into  electronics, I used to think they were a fantastic invention. I think I still do provided they are used in the right place! At one time I was in favour of using them on my car, but having seen the widespread use of them I am actually now firmly opposed to them. Most newish cars have bright LEDs, but visible only within a narrow field of view, making them less visible. (Car styling also adds to the problem). The use of bright DRLs on the front is a particular contention for me; my left eye is defective, not closing down in bright light. Hence these DRLs are very painful, indeed dangerous to me.

 

Stewart

[big jim]

thise LED signals a pain, as pointed out by others they are just too bright and make it really difficult to judge distance at night, even more so when you need to stop at the red and speak to the signaller and need to see the signal number on the plate below (which now sometimes bear no relation to the box/panel controlling them, the letters now show the route the signal is located)

 

as for in cab signalling, proper weird stuff that one, with any luck i may get passed out on the ertms next week, the crazy thing about that is you can pretty much drive a route without looking out of the window as it tells you everything you need to know and supervises all the time and you can supposedly not make a mistake without it intervening (but you can still pass a block marker at low speed if your not on the ball due to the "release speed" setting

 

another bug bear for me is bi-directional signalling in certain places, a lot of the time you see the signal on the opposite line way before you see yours, crewe to shrewsbury and crewe to manchester are terrible for it, ive often said that there should be somesort of system where the wrong direction signals are not illuminated until needed, in this day and age of GSM-r communication where a signaller can contact many trains at once a "group call" could go out to all trains on a particular line to advise them that the bi-di signals are about to illuminate in times of degraded working

 

oh and while im having a rant, crewe to shrewsbury has been resignalled at the cost of millions with the aforementioned bi-di signalling, "dinosaur egg" detection on crossings etc but to actually get onto the "wrong line" you still need to have a pilotman accompany you from salop crewe jn to the first LED signal (thats controlled from cardiff)