A new signal to me.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Back in about 1998 I saw some LED signals supplied by one of our associates overseas which were in the format of conventional heads with 4 light units. Seeing this a a marketing opportunity given the number of colour light bulbs in use over here my company arranged for type approval testing by Railtrack. The answer came back that the product was non-compliant with Railtrack's spec (ex-BR) as the yellow light was too bright and IIRC the wrong colour temperature. 

[phil-b259]

In the last eight years the it has become noticeable that the only maintanance that gets done is on AHBCs...

 

 

....and points - the legacy of Grayrigg (and Potters Bar) means that they are one piece of kit where the maintenance has requirements have actually increased - in contrast to everything else

[Dunsignalling]

With resignallings, it's a simple fact that you make grater wage savings by closing mechanical boxes than existing power signalling installations. For example when NR resignalled the Coastway East lines in Sussex they closed 5 signal boxes 4 of which were open 24/7 with a single ROC workstation.

 

Thus resignalling Cornwall makes financial sense given the amount of boxes (and signalmen) you could get rid of - the same was true of the ex LSWR route via Yeovil.

 

By contrast replacing a single NX Panel at somewhere like Three Bridges ASC actually requires more staff, not less as the H&S rules around people who work with VDU based equipment mean they require more frequent breaks so as to prevent eye strain.

It would have been if the project hadn't cost the equivalent of continuing to pay the existing signalling and S&T staff for twice as long as the new equipment is likely to last!

 

The latest I hear on Cornwall is that the money isn't available and the L/Q semaphores will have to last another ten years. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

When Cornwall is resignalled (temporarily) soon, it will retain semaphores with some new colour lights.

 

Simon

Modernised (or perhaps just replacing the most knackered ones) but not "Recontrolled" presumably, then or will some boxes take over the function of a neighbouring one as Lostwithiel did in an earlier rationalization?

 

John

[St. Simon]

Modernised (or perhaps just replacing the most knackered ones) but not "Recontrolled" presumably, then or will some boxes take over the function of a neighbouring one as Lostwithiel did in an earlier rationalization?

 

John

 

See this post for info

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101399-kernow-today/?p=2370591

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Back in about 1998 I saw some LED signals supplied by one of our associates overseas which were in the format of conventional heads with 4 light units. Seeing this a a marketing opportunity given the number of colour light bulbs in use over here my company arranged for type approval testing by Railtrack. The answer came back that the product was non-compliant with Railtrack's spec (ex-BR) as the yellow light was too bright and IIRC the wrong colour temperature. 

 

This was also a problem with the Ansaldo signals proposed for the 'Manchester South' scheme.  I went to the second set of trials as an ISA and the yell0w was not only considerably stronger than the other two colours (a seemingly standard situation with some designs of LED head) but was non-compliant with the BR spec and in certain conditions actually could be seen as green.

 

Incidentally last week in a lighthouse I saw how easily an LED light source can be concentrated into a beam - very simple process producing a  beam which 'cuts' through haze and fog.

[FelixM]

Back in about 1998 I saw some LED signals supplied by one of our associates overseas which were in the format of conventional heads with 4 light units. Seeing this a a marketing opportunity given the number of colour light bulbs in use over here my company arranged for type approval testing by Railtrack. The answer came back that the product was non-compliant with Railtrack's spec (ex-BR) as the yellow light was too bright and IIRC the wrong colour temperature.

Colour temperature is exactly the reason why LED signals didn't get permission in Germany. This is not to be underestimated.

[russ p]

It is the yellow that in my opinion is dazzling at night.

They tell you nowadays to observe the signal aspect as you pass it. With yellows at night it honestly leaves you dazzled

[JDW]

I find all LEDs dazzling at night, its counterproductive on motorways, sometimes its positively dangerous, when all you can see is the orange or blue flashing lights in the dark, but can't actually see what's going off because you're being blinded and having your night vision ruined by the lights warning you that its there...

[russ p]

The world has gone lighting mad! Worksites on the railway are also bad all those road railers have lights everywhere dazzlingall around. All staff wear head lamps , when staff had a bardic lamp they could signal to a driver that they were safe.

All this is like what happened at the kegworth disaster where there were so many flashing blue lights no one knew who was in charge.

On a worksite any danger signal is harder to see than in pre LED days

[jim.snowdon]

Colour temperature is exactly the reason why LED signals didn't get permission in Germany. This is not to be underestimated.

On the contrary, LED sigbnals are permitted in Germany and there are DB standards for them. A quick check on Google will reveal that Siemens, at least, manufacture them for use on DB, and doubtless there will be others.

 

Jim

[FelixM]

On the contrary, LED sigbnals are permitted in Germany and there are DB standards for them. A quick check on Google will reveal that Siemens, at least, manufacture them for use on DB, and doubtless there will be others.

 

Jim

Did some research and you are right, the pilot LED colour light installation was in 2013 near Halle. http://www.eurailpress.de/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/SD_2014-11.pdf#page=6

[43110andyb]

Here is the half way house for colour light signals. It's the mk2 LED light engine used to replace the filament SL35 lamps and alike. They are colour coordinated to the aspect as opposed to the White/clear filament lamps. With some teething problems due to cold weather and incorrect voltage set ups they seem to be proving reliable and use the existing inner and outer lenses on the signal head.

[royaloak]

Here is the half way house for colour light signals. It's the mk2 LED light engine used to replace the filament SL35 lamps and alike. They are colour coordinated to the aspect as opposed to the White/clear filament lamps. With some teething problems due to cold weather and incorrect voltage set ups they seem to be proving reliable and use the existing inner and outer lenses on the signal head.

And these are by far the best solution to the 'problem' of replacing the existing SL35 lamps, much better than some of the toytown ones being installed everywhere, and I say that as a mainline train driver!

[Jaggzuk]

Here are some other examples of the new VMS LED signal.  These including banner repeater and junction feather versions as well as 3 and 4 aspect heads.  They were taken at Sandy station on the East Coast Main Line south of Huntington.

 

They are manufactured by VMS Ltd and these are light weight versions which do not need ladders for maintenance as the whole unit can be hinge lowered using a hydraulic ram see http://www.vmslimited.co.uk/cls.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[russ p]

Aren't they the most horrible signals you've ever seen. Unless you were designing routes for train sim about 15 years ago

[Peter Kazmierczak]

What does the white aspect on P266 signify please?

[Trainshed Terry]

What does the white aspect on P266 signify please?

 

I think that you will find that it is a green aspect, it looks like white from the angle the photograph was taken. 

[jim.snowdon]

Aren't they the most horrible signals you've ever seen. Unless you were designing routes for train sim about 15 years ago

May be, but the only object is to show a coloured light to the driver; there's no marks for looking pretty as well. And the "white" is probably yellow, but seen from the wrong angle - as long as the driver sees it as yellow is all that matters.

 

Jim

[big jim]

What does the white aspect on P266 signify please?

It signifies how pi$$ poor these signals are, that's actually displaying a green aspect

[St. Simon]

May be, but the only object is to show a coloured light to the driver; there's no marks for looking pretty as well. And the "white" is probably yellow, but seen from the wrong angle - as long as the driver sees it as yellow is all that matters.

 

Jim

It's green, you can tell by the pigs ear on the side.

 

As you say, there is no bonus points for aesthetics, I think they look alright, I have been to loads of meetings with both safety and signal sighting representatives of various TOC's and gone on Cabrides, having asked the question on how people feel about these signals, I have yet to encounter a rigid hate them stance, yes one driver said they are a little bright, but he said that it's not too bad in his opinion.

 

Remember it is the signal sighting committee (this includes drivers of all the TOC's in the area) that decides on what signal type is used, not the designers,

 

Simon

[royaloak]

It's green, you can tell by the pigs ear on the side.

 

As you say, there is no bonus points for aesthetics, I think they look alright, I have been to loads of meetings with both safety and signal sighting representatives of various TOC's and gone on Cabrides, having asked the question on how people feel about these signals, I have yet to encounter a rigid hate them stance, yes one driver said they are a little bright, but he said that it's not too bad in his opinion.

 

Remember it is the signal sighting committee (this includes drivers of all the TOC's in the area) that decides on what signal type is used, not the designers,

 

Simon

There must be bonus points for making them as ugly as sin!

Dont these things sum up the modern way, just make it functional and sod how it looks, I wnder why car manufacturers dont do the same?

Oh yeah they would be out of business!

 

You have obviously never had a cab ride with me or 90% of the drivers I work with because these narrow angle, super bright (but useless in fog) LED signals are almost universally despised!

In fact my cynical side is wondering if the drivers you rode with were specially selected because the modern railway doesnt do criticism as it is negative and I have actually been taken off my booked job to sit spare because Management wanted a 'selected' driver on the train just in case a VIP caught it.I say that as a 10 year driver with a perfect safety of the line record.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I thought that these days the signal type was decided by the accountant who did the financial report on the tenders. 

[big jim]

Here is the half way house for colour light signals. It's the mk2 LED light engine used to replace the filament SL35 lamps and alike. They are colour coordinated to the aspect as opposed to the White/clear filament lamps. With some teething problems due to cold weather and incorrect voltage set ups they seem to be proving reliable and use the existing inner and outer lenses on the signal head.

If those are what they have replaced the old bulbs/oil lamps in the semaphores at shrewsbury with then they are fantastic, not too bright to make judging distance difficult but certainly bright enough to see from a good mile and a half away as opposed to the old 1/4 mile away when they were oil/filament lit, makes approaching shrewsbury from gobowen so much faster and smoother as you don't have to brake so early and then release when you can see the signal is off

 

I have however encountered problems with them in cold weather though at caverswell, March last year, got a green at the outer distant and a single yellow at the next (should have been a double yellow as a minimum), stopped at the box who informed me his panel was showing all signals off (green aspects), proceeded at caution to the next signal which on the panel was green only to find it at danger, those were all freshly replaced LED bulb signals which had failed due to the cold weather, had to pass 2 signals at danger that morning (but not before the barriers at Blythe bridge had been down for over 20mins!!), then to top it off my 56 decided to die at scropton with a water leak blocking the north staffs line for 4 hours before being rescued by a DRS 37!

[St. Simon]

Obviously never had a cab ride with me or 90% of the drivers I work with!

 

In fact my cynical side is wondering if the drivers you rode with were specially selected, the modern railway doesnt do criticism because it is negative.

 

  

 

No, the drivers are not specially selected, unless they are experts on pieces of equipment that we need to know about, I've met some very negative voices amongst drivers in meetings, so it is there.

 

I thought that these days the signal type was decided by the accountant who did the financial report on the tenders.

 

No, it's chosen by the committee, signals cost the same amount to purchase and install in reality, the cost is of a 'signal' (including the train detection, base, TFM / Relay module, TPWS, AWS etc) doesn't matter what type of signal.

 

Simon