My Hornby Black 5 project

[Quarryscapes]

Who doesn't secretly want a black 5? 

 

But is it worth starting with a (recent) tender drive model or should I forget about them and only go for loco drive models? 

[60159]

My view - go for a loco drive. Not just because the actual loco drive is better than the tender drive but the later loco drive Black 5 is a much improved model over previous models. ( Even a "recent" tender drive must be pretty old.) Need to check actual dates of changes but the "latest" Black 5 model must be at least 10 years old - others on this forum will probably be able to provide actual dates and R numbers.

 

PS Example, Black 5 44666 (R2382) loco drive, up-to-date model, weathered, top feed in forward position, was released in 2002.

[Mad McCann]

Any number from R2257 and above will get you a loco drive Hornby 5.

Much loved on its debut, the model is showing its age a bit now, but tarted up with a Brassmasters detailing kit, it still scrubs up superbly.

 

The subject of the attached image is all my fault! 

 

Dave.

[Quarryscapes]

That's interesting, I was looking at R2696 which the seller claims to be tender drive? 

 

Looking on Hattons it seems to have tender brake gear which I don't think would be the case if it was tender driven? 

 

I lost interest in Hornby when I was at school, so disentangling the crappy old stuff from the recent quality releases is proving difficult when searching for a good base model! 

 

I'm perusing the Brassmasters instructions at the moment, seems I've got some more research to do! 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Are you thinking R2686? R2696 was a scottish liveried 101. 

 

There is one tender drive with the old body amongst the later numbers, R2881, marketed as Railroad and carrying LMS livery numbered 5112.

 

As Dave said above go for the loco drive, much better model but if second hand see it run before you part with cash. I have an early one which is a real dog with sloppy rear wheels.

[Sylvian Tennant]

It really depends on what you want to get out of the hobby. A few years back - when reintroducing myself into the hobby and strapped for cash I would have given a railroad or tender drive model some serious thought when considering improvements. 

 

It might be something I wish to do as I've seen some nice models made out of them. However they are still very toy like and compared to later offerings so if you're after a closer physical representation then the later models fair better.

[brossard]

I remember doing battle with my old Black 5.  It never ran well I recall, no matter what I did.  I applied the Crownline upgrade to it (remember those - sigh).  The killer is that the loco is 4mm short.  This seems to be something Hornby did a lot of back in the day.  The Stanier coaches were also short as were the 6 wheeled vans.

 

I do have the sound on board Black 5 from a few years ago and it is awesome.  Performance is great and, as far as I can tell, the model is very accurate.  Sounds marvellous too - someone at Howes published a sound upgrade list, on here I think it was.  I have a professionally built Black 5 (DJH I think) bought from an estate - while this model is superb, Hornbys' may just beat it.

 

So, my opinion is to leave the old thing alone and go for the new design.

 

John

[Quarryscapes]

Are you thinking R2686? R2696 was a scottish liveried 101. 

 

There is one tender drive with the old body amongst the later numbers, R2881, marketed as Railroad and carrying LMS livery numbered 5112.

 

As Dave said above go for the loco drive, much better model but if second hand see it run before you part with cash. I have an early one which is a real dog with sloppy rear wheels.

 

Yes 2686, of which there are A and  B suffixes with different top feed positions! What a minefield! If it is loco drive, that explains why I couldn't tell the apparent recent tender drives apart from the loco drives, which was what prompted the original question/. 

 

I'm aiming to model 45417 of Bangor shed, it won't need to perform much, but will need to look good, so any extra detailing I can get in there I will. 

[cb900f]

The easy way to differentiate between the 2 models (tender drive/loco drive) is simply look at the valve gear.

 

Pete

[Quarryscapes]

The easy way to differentiate between the 2 models (tender drive/loco drive) is simply look at the valve gear.

 

Pete

 

To differentiate the old, old model yes, but for the recent ones it really is not that simple, one of these is supposedly tender drive, the other loco:

 

[cb900f]

Well I've got both of those and they are both loco drive.

 

Also the tender wheels are solid on the tender drive.

 

Here is a list for you of the loco driven.

R2257  5055,  R2250 45253,  R2258 44781, R 2359 44908, R 2360 44762, R 2323 5000,  R2321 45455, R 2322 44668, R 2450 45393, R 2449 45157,  2868b 44871,

R2857 45458, R 2561 5036, R 2555 45156, R 2904 45190, R 2382 44666, R 3323 44694.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Pete

[farren]

Are we talking about super detailed black5's? All are loco drive. Or the railroad black5's which have been loco drive for a few years now.

[cb900f]

If he is talking about the rail road loco driven, then it can still be recognised by the non prototypical valve gear.

 

Pete

[Quarryscapes]

Well I've got both of those and they are both loco drive.

 

Also the tender wheels are solid on the tender drive.

 

Here is a list for you of the loco driven.

R2257  5055,  R2250 45253,  R2258 44781, R 2359 44908, R 2360 44762, R 2323 5000,  R2321 45455, R 2322 44668, R 2450 45393, R 2449 45157,  2868b 44871,

R2857 45458, R 2561 5036, R 2555 45156, R 2904 45190, R 2382 44666, R 3323 44694.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Pete

 

Thanks matey - the two locos pictured are 2257 and 2250, 2250 has been described as tender drive in at least 3 adverts for it I've seen, the rest don't mention it. It's also the one I've got my eye on as being the best match for what I need. 

[cb900f]

One on e bay finishing in 8 hrs standing at £58 at the moment and allegedly not been run.

 

Pete

[Quarryscapes]

Is there any where that lists the models by variant, firebox length, top feed etc?

[cb900f]

Short firebox and domeless  45020 - 45224. Remainder were all long f/box.

Top feed on second barrel ring 45225 - 45499,  44800 - 44996. Remainder the top feed was on the first barrel ring.

 

Information courtesy of "Locomotives in Details vol  2 Class 5" J Jennison & D Clarke

 

In light of the next 2 comments maybe I should have added  that the list is for when the locos were built.

[farren]

I have seven SD Black 5's differences are nearly as wide as the prototype.

 

Rivet and none rivet buffer beam. Long and short wheel base. Short or tall chimney. Domeless, domed and forward topfeed. Sort and long firebox. The pipe on the lift of the somke box can be in at least two places. (Can't remember what it's called at mo) riveted and none riveted tenders. Might be more differences. Different builders plates.

 

And don't forget what ever a book says about how a loco looked when built it is almost certain it changed over it's working life so try to find a photo

[Pete the Elaner]

 

And don't forget what ever a book says about how a loco looked when built it is almost certain it changed over it's working life so try to find a photo

Absolutely. They usually swapped boilers at each major overhaul for whichever one had just been rebuilt.

[cb900f]

Might as well add a few more.

 

Part welded tender , sliding windows, fixed windows , different window surrounds , different hand rail fixings on the cab, different top feeds,different axle boxes , different axlebox castings, double chimneys, different loco steps, different tender vents,sieve boxes fitted or not fitted,different valve gear, self weighing tenders, unable to provide steam heat from front buffer beam, washout inspection covers/non covers on the firebox.

 

Yes we could go on but the poor guy was only asking with regards to 45253.

 

The pipe on the L/H side is the steam atomiser.

 

Pete

[farren]

I was just talking about what Hornby have produced. Was the wheel base on the railroad version corrected when they charged it to loco drive

[cb900f]

I thought that you were referring to the actual class re the reference to photos .

 

Don't know about the w/base of a R/Road as I wouldn't consider ever purchasing one. Examining the  pictures, the wheelbase appears to be equidistant and I would hazard a guess that it is the same chassis they have used for approx 40 yrs.

 

I purchased the original black 5 back in the 70's (complete with single slide bar) and although it was tender drive there was the facility to stick a motor in the loco chassis even then.

 

Loco found its way into the dustbin and gave the tender to a friend.

 

Pete

[Quarryscapes]

Right I have now acquired a suitable Black 5, loco driven of course - but there is a slight issue with the slidebars on one side I just happened to notice earlier - they're splayed out so that at full backwards stroke the crosshead isn't even touching either of them! 

 

How much of a mare is stripping the valve gear going to be on this? Bearing in mind I have a Bachmann 2MT disassembled that I cannot get back together because the valve gear requires an Octopus-human hybrid to assemble it. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Don't go stripping then! Remove the loco body, and with a pair of good tweezers it is usually possible to manipulate whatever is bent back to decent straightness, and then 'spring' the slide bars open enough to accept the crosshead. I'd take a careful look - both before starting, and once reassembled - to try and understand just what happened to bend the slide bars and disengage the crosshead. Pound to a penny it will be the connecting rod having bound on a crankpin when at full back stroke, and the drive then bowing the snagged connecting rod - and thus the slidebars - outwards. Adjustment (= gentle bending) of the connecting rod so it can never at any time clout a crankpin eliminates this trouble. I couldn't count how many such bent rods incidents on various models I have fixed over the years, and provided that no rod has a kink or break it's usually fixable in situ.

 

The one downside of the decently torquey can motors and sensible drive train reductions we get nowadays, is that this results in more than enough force to bend near scale appearance rods...