The Locomotives of Boulton's siding

[melmoth]

Indeed, and that becomes even more obvious with the 2-2-0 version. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/blue_circle.html

 

I should have said "weird breed of RAILWAY locomotive".

 

Mr Boulton's "Rattlesnake" was not far removed, and exchanging chains for gears, some of Lewin's also clearly displayed their road locomotive ancestry http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Lewin_1875_01.jpg

 

K

 

I'm a bit late to this, but there's an article by Paul Berntsen in the second MRJ Compendium which describes how he built a model of Rattlesnake in P4.

[pete_mcfarlane]

On the subject of road locos turned in to railway locos, this is worth a read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Lord-Willoughbys-Railway-Edenham-Branch-R-E-Pearson/0951165607

 

It's probably the most comprehensive history of an obscure minor railway I've ever read. It includes 'Ophir', which started out as a road locomotive designed by Daniel Gooch (no less), was converted in to a railway loco when the branch was built, and eventually found a home with Issac Boulton. 

[Penlan]

On the subject of road locos turned in to railway locos, this is worth a read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Lord-Willoughbys-Railway-Edenham-Branch-R-E-Pearson/0951165607

Ordered via Amazon.

I have some small change in my Amazon account looking for a home, this seems a worthy cause.

[Killian keane]

Theres a painting of little england on ebay now, curious that she is shown as being red when for her whole life she was blue

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Painting-Steam-Loco-Victorian-Engine-Little-England-/132069492561?nav=SEARCH

[Penlan]

On the subject of road locos turned in to railway locos, this is worth a read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Lord-Willoughbys-Railway-Edenham-Branch-R-E-Pearson/0951165607

Well it's arrived today, and for £3.50, very good value, and the pictures of the loco's are very much worthy of Boulton's Sidings

 

Many thanks Pete for the pointer.  

I think I know a nice settle by a log fire, ale and a pie near to hand, that would give just the right ambience to read this book 

[Penlan]

Having now read most of the book, 'The Edenham Branch' seems a most likely* subject for MRJ's Cameo Layout venture.

 

One interesting part (for me) was the impression that when the GNR first built Little Bytham station, there were no conventional points, just wagon turntables, even on the running lines, it seems :-

Page 23 'The first GNR station at Little Bytham was a simple, two platform affair, sidings on both sides, connected by turntables across the through lines. Conventional Points were installed later'.

Agreed it states across, but how else, if there were no conventional points, did the traffic move from the running lines to the sidings, being mindful we are talking about the early 1850's.

 

*   '.. most likely..' Oh, the mid Victorian writing seems to have got to me.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by Penlan

[Killian keane]

Would make a good shunting puzzle layout, having to move one wagon at a time and locos separately from their tenders

[cctransuk]

Having now read most of the book, 'The Edenham Branch' seems a most likely* subject for MRJ's Cameo Layout venture.

 

One interesting part (for me) was the impression that when the GNR first built Little Bytham station, there were no conventional points, just wagon turntables, even on the running lines, it seems :-

Page 23 'The first GNR station at Little Bytham was a simple, two platform affair, sidings on both sides, connected by turntables across the through lines. Conventional Points were installed later'.

Agreed it states across, but how else, if there were no conventional points, did the traffic move from the running lines to the sidings, being mindful we are talking about the early 1850's.

 

*   '.. most likely..' Oh, the mid Victorian writing seems to have got to me.  

 

Surely local traffic would be detached, turned and moved to the sidings, one wagon at a time, by horsepower?

 

Quite conventional for the period, I would have thought.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Penlan]

cctransuk, in a sense I agree, but normally wagon turntables were not on (through) running lines,

although of course in the next day or two a wealth of photo's will appear on here to show me I'm wrong.

[£1.38]

One arrangement in early stations was to have wagon turntables connecting sidings either side of the main line, with a track at right angles to the main line linking the two sides of the station. Examples could be found on the London and Birmingham and some later LNWR branches, for example.

 

In early GNR days, parking a goods train on a busy main line whilst shunting took place would probably be very dangerous. More likely there would be lay-by tracks next to the sidings. Later maps of Little Bytham suggest this arrangement - though I have no idea when they were installed.

 

http://maps.nls.uk/view/114654249

 

The Edenham line was defunct, I think, at the time of the map.

 

Peterborough East appears to have had one TT on a main line at this period

 

http://maps.nls.uk/view/114488420

Edited May 14, 2017 by £1.38

[Penlan]

I've been advised that as I've had a (couple of) Happy Hour at the Legion for a early Party,

I'm not allowed to reply to anything... 

[pete_mcfarlane]

I've wondered how they ran the branch train round at Little Bytham. It looks like they used gravity, rather like at Bembridge on the IOW.

[Penlan]

I've wondered how they ran the branch train round at Little Bytham. It looks like they used gravity, rather like at Bembridge on the IOW.

Right, in spite of instructions...

I can now see from this plan there is a kick back siding on the Up line, which would allow stock to be transfered from the GNR to the Wagon Turntables, though that is not the inference of the original text - see post #56 above.

Pete, the text from the book explains.  The loco seemingly being turned on the Wagon Turntable.

BTW, plenty of fun to be had for a cameo layout.

 

Incidentally, Bradshaw's 1864 timetables lists 5 Passenger trains a day each way on the 4 mile long Edenham Branch.

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Penlan

[Nearholmer]

The Wotton tramway was originally accessed rather like that, too.

 

Kevin

[pete_mcfarlane]

Pete, the text from the book explains.  The loco seemingly being turned on the Wagon Turntable.

I'll have to reread it. Again. I'd missed or forgotten that explanation. 

 

It would definitely make a good cameo, especially for those who dislike building track - just one point and a turntable. 

[Nearholmer]

The Wootton version, at quainton road, was even better, because the loop was on "railway" side, so the tramway track layout was a turntable, and four tracks at ninety degrees to one another ....... even I could manage that!

 

K

[Penlan]

I'll have to reread it. Again. I'd missed or forgotten that explanation. 

It would definitely make a good cameo, especially for those who dislike building track - just one point and a turntable. 

... and don't forget, Lord Willoughby wanted to add some Guano Drops (similar to the familiar NER Coal Drops) at Little Bytham.   Even the other end of the line at Edenham would be interesting, with Coal, Timber, Quarry workings etc., plus all the agricultural stuff, and his experiments with steam power......

 

Apart from the fact just about every topic on the Forum somehow manages to degenerate down to this 'waste'  topic aspect. it seems reading the book, the GNR was running train loads of the stuff out of London - where it had been unloaded from ships - NOT arising's from Londoners.

 

Guano :- During the guano boom of the nineteenth century, the vast majority of seabird guano was harvested from Peruvian guano islands, but large quantities were also exported from the Caribbean, atolls in the Central Pacific, and islands off the coast  of Namibia, Oman, Patagonia and Baja California.  At that time, massive deposits of guano existed on some islands, in some cases more than 50 m deep.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Penlan

[Killian keane]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive this is bury no. 26, and what an odd looking engine she was too

Edit: note the words

'Isaac W Boulton

Owner

Ashton under lyne'

Very elegantly painted on the cab sidesheet, no doubt applied by the artistic painter and accountant for the firm, mr William Knowles, this must be a prime example of the flamboyancies reffered to in the book on his part

Note also the round section coupling rods, typical bury practice, and not apparent from the drawing

Edited January 5, 2018 by Killian keane

[Killian keane]

No.17, curtesy of the HMRS website, possibly the highest resolution image of a Boulton engine yet seen

Edited December 19, 2017 by Killian keane

[Ruston]

I'd agree that it would make a fantastic model (and you'd not have to motorise some of the trickier locos). 

 

It might be possible to work something out from contemporary maps. If I've understood things correctly, there was a main works next to Portland Street in Ashton - the book says it extended towards North Street, which would put it in this area: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4874686,-2.1028971,18z .smf

 

There's an 'Engine works' at this location in the 1874 OS map https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/393228/398938/13/100675

 

This works has tracks for testing narrow gauge locos. The 'siding' itself was detached from this, and alongside the MS&L.  I've not been able to find this on the map yet. 

Hi Pete,

 

I can't see anything on your old maps link - it says that I have to subscribe to see that level of detail. Are you showing the Portland Street works there? The Google link doesn't work at all.

 

This is where I think the siding was - http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=53.4899&lon=-2.1074&layers=6&b=1 If that link works there should be the National Gas Engine Works shown and below the writing there are buildings with a siding and tracks going into them. The book mentions that what were Boulton's works at the siding were taken over by National Gas, so I guess that's the site.

 

 

One loco that I am thinking of building is that shown in Fig.56, an 0-4-0ST with one of Boulton's patent water tube boilers. From the text I assume this was a complete new-build. I wonder how many of this type were built and where they worked?

 

With only the side view drawing to go on some of building this is bound to be guesswork but perhaps someone knows something of water tube boilers? Would the firebox end (backhead) look different from the more usual type of locomotive boiler? Perhaps looking something more like the end of a Lancashire boiler, or some type of marine boiler?

[Killian keane]

Apart from the boiler ends being flanged outwards (a feature not unique to the water tube locos) the backhead appears of the conventional arrangement, the only difference between these locos and an ordinary type being located within the boiler barrel itself

[pete_mcfarlane]

I can't see anything on your old maps link - it says that I have to subscribe to see that level of detail. Are you showing the Portland Street works there? The Google link doesn't work at all.

That was my attempt to track down the Portland Street works. The Old Maps link was working when I posted it, so something must have changed at their end. It now gives me the same message about subscribing for that level of detail. 

 

The Google link works for me, but it does contain a @ character which may cause problems: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4874686,-2.1028971,18z

 

Good work on tracking down the location of the siding. Presumably these are the National Gas Engine people who bought it: 

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/National_Gas_Engine_Co ?

http://www.enginemuseum.org/natcomp.html

[Signalman Rich]

While not directly related to the previous comments I would like to offer some information on "Bristol." In my reprint of the Chronicles (David & Charles 1971) on page 154 there is rear threequarter view of the loco in a line of others along with the drawing on page 213. In "Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History" by Bradley and Milton (David & Charles 1973 edition) on page 191 there is photo of the right side view (looking forward) of "Bristol" and the note that it was the first loco used for shunting at Radstock in place of horses for shunting. 

 

I did start making a tinplate model of the loco in 7mm scale about thirty years ago, but sadly never completed it. Perhaps now is the time for me to re-start it now I have developed a few more skills?

 

Best wishes

Rich

[Ruston]

Apart from the boiler ends being flanged outwards (a feature not unique to the water tube locos) the backhead appears of the conventional arrangement, the only difference between these locos and an ordinary type being located within the boiler barrel itself

 

I have looked in more detail at the drawing in the book and although the locomotive frames have holes in them (not solid plate frames) there is no sign of a firebox or ashpan between the frames. The rear axle would also be in the way of a conventional firebox.

 

Then I read more about Boulton's patent water tube boilers and it says that it was for "a straight round flue without a firebox". There's even a drawing on page 171. I should have looked first - D'oh!

 

So the backhead would be very different from a conventional locomotive.

 

[Ruston]

I am now building an RT Models kit for a Manning Wardle Old Class I (being a completely different animal from what were called New Class I) and have realised that Boulton's LEODIS must have been an Old Class I as the drawing of LEODIS in The Chronicles appears to be one of that class and is described as having 1x17 inch cylinders. It also has unevenly spaced wheels (greater space between leading and central axle than leading and rear) and has the old E.B. Wilson style of fluted safety valve cover, which indicates an Old Class I

I have been trying to identify it by works number.

In The Chronicles it is said to have been bought from "Canada Works, Birkenhead". Canada Works was the works of the civil engineering contractor Thomas Brassey and was originally set up to manufacture the metalwork for bridges,locomotives, rolling stock etc. for his rail and road contracts, particularly for building the Grand Trunk Railway in Canada.

In the list of engines in Fred W. Harman's book on standard gauge Manning Wardles there are 10 Old Class I shown as being new to either Brassey & Field or Brassey & Ballard. Of these one was bought for a contract in New South Wales (33, PIONEER of 1861) and remained there to be used on the railway which it built. The other went new to Italy (70, MINNIE, of 1863).

 

Below is a photo of the New South Wales loco, which is almost identical to that in the drawing in The Chronicles.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-17793-0-48849200-1364271576.jpg

Of the remaining 8 there are as follows (contract information and disposal from Industrial Locomotive Society Handbook R. Place names in brackets are what is shown as delivery destination)

None of those are shown, below, as delivered to Canada Works but it's probable that the loco Boulton bought was used on contracts in the UK, rather than a works shunter. The loco could have been a works shunter or stored as plant.

4 of 1859 RUTLAND (Great Malvern) W&HR Worcester to Hereford, 1859. LNWR Enniskillen to Bundoran 1864-66. Sold to LNWR 1866

18 of 1860 MALVERN  (Great Malvern) Details as above

67 of 1863 PERSEVERANCE (Shrewsbury) WMR Shrewsbury to Hereford widening, 1861. Sold to J. Mackay

83 of 1863 COLWALL (Evesham) Midland Railway Ashchurch to Evesham. Sold to Meakin & Dean, 1868

155 of 1865 STONEYWAY (Dunstable) Midland Railway Bedford to Elstree, 1865-67

174 of 1865 COBDEN (Hitchin) Contract details as above. Sold to Townsend, Watson & Gates.

177 of 1865 SHAKESPEARE (St. Albans) Contract details as above. Sold to T.B. Crampton, Kineton, 1866

204 of 1866 LINCOLN (Bedford) Midland Railway, Bedford to Elstree, 1865-. Thames Embankment, 1866. Ex Exhall Colliery*

 

* This is how it is shown in the ILS but this loco is shown in Harman as new to Brassey & Ballard. It's probably a typo and I think should be sold to Exhall Colliery.

The only one out of the 8 with no disposal details given is STONEYWAY - could this be Boulton's LEODIS?




 

Edited December 25, 2017 by Ruston