Danemouth Mk 4

[Danemouth]

Many of you will have followed my tribulations with “Danemouth Esplanade”

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66420-danemouth-esplanade/

 

This layout failed dismally from my viewpoint mainly because:

• The goods sidings were a pig to shunt – I can’t imagine the GWR designing something so awkward to operate – I managed that!
• The layout had two three way points which were not electrically reliable 100% of the time despite modifications.

So I took the best option for me – rip it up and start again using the same baseboards. The scenic area is 10’ by 2’ with the fiddleyard at right angles connect by non-scenic second radius curves.

 

Location

“Danemouth”, somewhere on the South Coast, one of those seaside resorts that the Victorians expected to be big but somehow never happened. I see Danemouth at the end of a single track secondary line 5 or 6 miles from the mainline junction.

 

The time period is late fifties/early sixties with late crest steam and the occasional Green diesel.

 

Traffic:

• Branch trains of B set and Autocoaches
• Two or three coaches detached from an express at the “junction”.
• Branch goods train excluding coal traffic.
• GUVs etc. mainly using the end of the bay platform.

The steam locos include various Panniers and Prairies (Large & Small), a Grange, 2259 and Dukedog. Diesels are a Flying Banana, Warship, Hymek and Class 22. Having seen the videos of sound locos on Coachman’s Oswestry I expect to convert some of these locos to sound.

 

Track and Control

 

Danemouth, like it predecessors will be DCC operated using a Powercab. In the past I have controlled the points via DCC – haven’t made up my mind whether this incarnation will follow the same path as I don’t want to overload the Powercab if I am running sound.

 

Track is Peco Code 75 with Electrofrog points except the fiddleyard which is Code 100 as I need the tight radiuses offered by Settrack. I will reuse the Cobalt motors from the previous layout.

 

In the past I’ve used Hex Frog Juicers – this time I will utilise the switches on the Cobalts instead.

 

The track plan

In previous threads I’ve explained how my c@ck-handedness is legendary so in designing a trackplan I not only looked at lots of prototype plans but also considered what was available in terms of RTP buildings and Metcalfe kits i.e. something that gives a pleasing result with my limited skills.

 

The Highley Station building and signal box will be reused together with a Bachmann GWR Goods Store.

 

Unlike previous versions the new plan incorporates a small engine shed. There is no space for a turntable so the tender engines will run back to the junction tender first, just like Andy P’s Pencarne,

 

Any comments or advice on the plan is most welcome. The next step is to finish clearing the boards and to lay the track out using Peco paper point templates – I find this always finds issues and tweaks that are not obvious on an AnyRail plan.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this lot,

 

Dave

 

[Flying Pig]

I liked the old Danemouth and was sorry to see it go. This one looks fine too, except for the runround which seems a bit short relative to the size of the station. Is there a way to make it longer? Possibly even move the crossover to the left hand board - or is that too close to the curve?

[TheSignalEngineer]

I would agree on the length of the run-round. It looks capable of about 2 coaches.

 

Regarding the use of the Bay for GUV or similar traffic, ideally it should have a trap point at the main line connection.

[Danemouth]

Thank you both for your comments, they are greatly appreciated.

 

In the main platform the distance between the entry point and run around point is 110 cm which is enough for three coaches. However I've realised that the loco portion of the run around is 46 cms which can be reduced to 40 cms given loco sizes.

 

I tried putting the entry point and double slip on the left board but found it made the headshunt too short to be of any practical use.

 

Talking things over with another friend the six inches allowed for the backscene will be too tight for shops and a roadway so I will need to adjust this - that could well mean the end of the bottom siding!

 

I will wait a day or two for  further comments before posting a revised plan.

 

Again thanks for the comments,

 

Dave

 

p.s. The old Danemouth track layout looked good, it was the sheer impracticability of shunting the goods vans that frustrated me.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1. - Don't forget that the length of the run-round is determined by where the coaches stand with enough room for the loco to pass safely. In reality this would be taken as the distance of the plain piece of track between the double slip and the crossover. 

 

2 - A length of 40cm is 100' so are you going to run a very big loco or double headed tanks? A Grange is about 26cm over couplings, so adding about 5cm extra from the joint at the points to the face of the stop block should be enough if you need to gain a bit of length on the run round.

 

3 - Would it be possible to replace the double slip with a set of points and put a crossover between the headshunt and the main line ? The main line points could be right against the connection to the bay.

 

4 - Is one of the tracks to go through the goods shed? That area may need re-thinking as you have a lot of siding length which is not of any use for loading/unloading. Perhaps the goods shed could go on the stub at the end of the run round or you could put a loading dock there.

[Happy Hippo]

Dave,

 

I'm going to suggest something radical.

 

1.   Ditch the bay platform.

2.   Extend the run around loop so that the point which controls the entry is where the bay platform would have been.

3.  Consider lopping a bit off the loco run around at the end of the platform (but see 4)

4.  Utilize the dead end siding alongside the runaround as the bay for parcels (so you'd need a bit more length there, so that negates 3)

5.  Ditch the slip and put in a single crossover to feed the yard sidings. And consider shedding one of these so you only have two goods roads.

6.  Ditch the engine shed and just have a couple of valeting sidings with rudimentary facilities.

 

This scheme should give you a sense of  more space, especially if you add some subtle curvature into the plan and bigger gaps between the sidings.

 

This crummy drawing might explpain a bit better.

 

CCF09072016.pdf

 

 

[rovex]

I might also suggest ditching the shop's behind the station. Some house backs and a narrow alleyway,yards with bins etc. Would give the town feel and take up less space.

[john flann]

Dave, I'll leave the plan to yourself and others but one thing I do is to lay loose track and play about with that and stock to see what works. Paper plans are all very well but don't always realistically represent what's on the ground.

 

And, I wish you well with the build.

[Danemouth]

Dave, I'll leave the plan to yourself and others but one thing I do is to lay loose track and play about with that and stock to see what works. Paper plans are all very well but don't always realistically represent what's on the ground.

 

And, I wish you well with the build.

John,

 

Absolutely agree - AnyRail is a good tool for seeing if something is feasible but nothing beats several lengths of track and Peco paper templates on the baseboard to see if the plan is practical.

 

At some point pictures will appear showing just that! In the meantime I am playing the AnyRail trying Signal Engineer's and Happy Hippos ideas.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Danemouth]

I might also suggest ditching the shop's behind the station. Some house backs and a narrow alleyway,yards with bins etc. Would give the town feel and take up less space.

Thanks for the idea Rovex, I had forgotten the Metcalfe Kits

 

http://www.metcalfemodels.com/po276-00-h0-low-relief-red-brick-terraced-house-backs

http://www.metcalfemodels.com/po277-00-h0-low-relief-stone-terraced-house-backs

 

These are 96mm deep, which allows for a lane between them and the railway fence of 50 mm -  just right for cars to park in the lane and still allow space for vehicles to pass.

 

Now do I go for stone or brick houses or even a mixture bearing in mind that Highley Station building is stone - maybe I should toss a coin!

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Brinkly]

Hi Dave,

 

I wish you luck with your latest project. I think you have made the right decision, nothing worse than trying to build/developed/operate something your not totally happy with.

 

Look forward to seeing so,e updates.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[DaveF]

More years ago than I care to remember (mid 70s) I used an almost identical track plan for a layout based on a mythical M&GN branch to a resort somewhere on the Wash.

 

I think that the only difference was that my loco shed came off the bay platform road so it was on the outside of the curve to the fiddle yard, for space reasons.

 

It was very enjoyable to operate.

 

David

[TheSignalEngineer]

John,

 

Absolutely agree - AnyRail is a good tool for seeing if something is feasible but nothing beats several lengths of track and Peco paper templates on the baseboard to see if the plan is practical.

 

At some point pictures will appear showing just that! In the meantime I am playing the AnyRail trying Signal Engineer's and Happy Hippos ideas.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

I did my initial plans on Anyrail printed at 1/4 size to do a first check then stuck full size prints to the baseboard. Pushing around some stock showed a couple of impractical bits which were resolved by loose laying a few bits of track held in place with drawing pins to get the alignment right.

[Danemouth]

I've spent some time altering the plan and come up with this:

 

 

Picking up on the points raised by Signal Engineer, Richard (HH)  and Rovex:

• I liked Richard's plan but without the Bay Platform I know that I will find passenger traffic operation a little too quiet for my tastes.
• The idea of  a short platform for parcels traffic appealed to me so I've incorporated that with 60mm of track so a full brake can be parked there.
• Just two goods sidings now and one of them uses the parcels platform as an end dock.
• The Goods store does not have any track running through it - it can be seen in its previous incarnation towards the end of this post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66420-danemouth-esplanade/?p=1636090
• I did try two points instead of the double slip but found that it made the middle section of the run around loop look too small.
• The loco shed is gone - thinking about it being 5/6 miles from the junction makes it unlikely - I've replaced it with a small coal yard. Had to use a three way point to fit the sidings into the space because of the baseboard joint,
• I've made the backscene a couple of centimetres deeper - this will be the back of terrace houses with a lane behind hopefully wide enough for tourists who are too mean to pay for a car park to park their cars; this latter bit will be "suck it and see" when things are laid out.
• I haven't identified any trap points, the double slip would prevent any runaways reaching the main line.

Thanks for all your help, further comments would be much appreciated,

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[rovex]

Hi Dave.

 

Looking good. Minor point, when your railway was built no one had a car and so there would have been no car Park. In fact in all likelihood the railway had to squeeze between what was probably already fairly built up area by the promenade.

 

Car parks came later either on the goodsyard once it was out of service or when the council purchased some run down sea front properties and cleared the land.

 

It's a shame there isn't a bit of space for the seafront, bit of the prom,etc.

 

Continuing to watch with interest

[Danemouth]

Hi Dave.

 

Looking good. Minor point, when your railway was built no one had a car and so there would have been no car Park. In fact in all likelihood the railway had to squeeze between what was probably already fairly built up area by the promenade.

 

Car parks came later either on the goodsyard once it was out of service or when the council purchased some run down sea front properties and cleared the land.

 

It's a shame there isn't a bit of space for the seafront, bit of the prom,etc.

 

Continuing to watch with interest

Thanks  Rovex,

 

Unfortunately 10' by 2' doesn't leave space for a prom! However the short platform leading from the main to parcels on the extreme right is where the front is so I intend to plant  some palm trees outside the railings and put an ice cream van, taxis etc. to give a hint.

 

I am also thinking of ditching the coal yard and replacing it with a coach/car park. Over the years I have bought numerous cars etc. of the period and would welcome the opportunity to put them on display, it would also add colour to the layout.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[TheSignalEngineer]

Looks much better than the first version. Many branch terminii were fairly minimal in freight facilities, and unless there were though holiday trains which stayed over such as at Ilfracombe there wouldn't be any coaching stock lying about.

The parcels dock has the potential to also have an end loading dock on siding next to the run round. 

[rovex]

There is a great picture of Scarborough North Bay in the 1930's with the hill behind the cafe on the front (now demolished) covered in cars.

 

Perhaps a grass bank sloping down from the road on the left of the layout covered in cars as an impromptu bank holiday car park

[Andrew P]

Hi Dave, I'm standing back at the moment and watching with interest, one thing that I think is a good decision is to not have any Turntable, I do like to see Tender Locos running backwards.

 

With Pencarne, once I started to lay the Track I actually omitted sidings, and if it wasn't for the fact that my line divided to the Ex GWR line and the Ex Withered Arm line I would not have had a Bay Platform, I would have done the same as Porth Merryn and made better use of it, for Parcels or Goods as I did on Trebudoc.

 

As I say just watching for now.

[Zomboid]

I imagine that unless it's ex-LSWR, tender engines would have been rare to non-existant on a 6 mile branch. Just wouldn't need the fuel capacity on trains which originate at the junction; even the through carriages would get a fresh loco there.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Think about the locos. For the Grange, Warship and Hymek it would have to be a Red route. Not very likely for a country branch.

[Happy Hippo]

I wouldn't worry about route availability, just think Kingswear, Fishguard or Neyland, which were allat the end of single track lines.

 

As far as the car parking is concerned why don't you put a dummy track and cutting into the top left hand side that looks as if the railway is disappearing off in a straight line.

 

You can then cover the area over the curve with a board (lift out, just in case) that contains a car and coach park.

 

I had assumed the station was an end on connection with the harbour road, not dissimilar to Aberystwyth.

 

Another thought would be to have the low relief street and lane at a higher level, same level as the road over bridge, which would give Danemouth a bit more height.

 

Don't worry about the fact it is higher than sea level, just assume it ends in a cliff!

 

You could imagine this embankment as a complete reverse of the houses and lane behind Clive Street in Cardiff.

 

You'd be looking down at the trains rather than up.

 

Od course unlike the Grangetown embankment, the Danemouth version would be neat and tidy and not the unofficial rubbish tip that Clive Lane was.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I wouldn't worry about route availability, just think Kingswear, Fishguard or Neyland, which were allat the end of single track lines.

 

Three fairly rare GWR lines as far as route availability was concerned. Kingswear was 'Hatched Red' so could take Kings because of the Torbay traffic. This had to go through to at least Goodrington. The lines to the ports in SW Wales were presumably graded Red for the Irish Sea traffic, and going further back the hope that Transatlantic traffic would use Fishguard. 

Besides Torbay, the principle branch to holiday areas which was graded Red was to Newquay. Many others were Yellow. Some like St Ives could only take small Praries with flat top tanks, even the 4575 series was too heavy when the tanks were full.

 

To run 'Red' group engines you could always class it as 'Dotted Red' which would mean that 'Red' group engines could run over it at lower speed and with local restrictions as to what sidings could be accessed, e.g. Danemouth Branch 68xx permitted on Main platform and Run Round Loop only. Maximum speed over points not to exceed 5 mph

[Danemouth]

Thank you for your comments, please keep them coming, I am finding them most helpful.

 

Whilst Danemouth is 5/6  miles from the junction is was built in the expectation that traffic would expand, so was built to a higher standard than an ordinary branch line. In fact Kingswear was the inspiration for Danemouth originally.

 

Alternatively Rule One applies   Most of the trains will be hauled by Panniers and Prairies large and small as I really like them! The largest steam loco is a Grange, my favourite GWR tender engine.

 

I did consider an embankment along the back of the layout but discarded the idea as I want to place the station building fairly close to the backscene. Retaining walls along the backscene seems overkill for a station such as Danemouth - opinions please!

 

I do like the idea of a removable section over the fiddle yard curve with some houses and a coach/car park together with a road - that would certainly make use of otherwise dead space and allow me to use the cars and vans bought over the years.

 

Been to Lord & Butler and purchased 12 lengths of Code 75 in readiness. Next job is to remove the Cobalts and wiring from under the boards, fill the holes and sand it all down. Then laying track temporarily and testing the design can start.

 

Regards to you all,

 

Dave

[Zomboid]

I'd go for a sloping embankment along the back, like at Swanage. Downside would be no space for buildings/road, but more probable in a smallish town without extreme geography to contend with.