Simple P4 turnout construction (works for EM and 00 gauges as well)

[hayfield]

No problem restarting this thread, that's what threads are all about

 

The photo on the top of this page show's the simplified form of building a common crossing, I have shown a piece of 0.5mm copperclad being soldered to the tip of the vee to make a foot on the rail, the copperclad strip is cut and filed flush with the rail sides.

 

When making the vee whilst soldering the joint I tin the foot of the rail, the copperclad strip is tinned. the tip of the vee is placed on the copperclad, a liberal coat of liquid flux is added, then a hot iron with solder on its tip is quickly put to the joint long enough to fuse the two together, but not melt the joint of the 2 rails.

 

At the start of page 1 I have shown how to construct a common crossing sub assembly, I use either C&L 0.6mm x 3mm copperclad strip or 0.5 mm x 2 mm brass strip. As above I tin both the Vee and the strips first, The wing rails also have the bottom of the rail tinned, The strips are soldered vees over a simple plan, as for fitting the wing rails the EMGS sells a cheap and simple etched jig

 

I guess using the prebuilt sub assemblies may be stronger, certainly they are more conservative. but gluing the wing rails in position with chairs is equally strong. People are used to soldering and fettling and that's what they like. If you do it correctly first time then it will not need fettling.

 

Firstly allow the solvent to set properly, leave it for 24 hours

If you have made the part wrongly remake it. Or misaligned the placing, then do it again

 

If we trust the chairs to hold a stock rail in place, then they are going to hold the other rails in place

 

I also build turnouts on boards at my work bench, leaning over wide baseboards may lead to errors

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks @hayfield - your turnouts (via eBay) were spoken about with glowing words at the Wealden P4 area group so I'm going to follow your advice to a T!

 

I have re-read the section about chaired wing rail fixing and I think I get it better now: if fitting the diverging wing rail, you only fix the two S1 and one X chair which are parallel with the straight road, gauged up against the straight stock rail. When that's set, you then use a flangeway gauge to slide the rail towards or away from the vee to get the relevant gap, and then fix the diverging half-centre-check-chair-masquerading-as-a-B-chair to hold it at that position.

 

I am pleased that there's enough grip in the chairs to hold the vee in position, I would have thought naively that the shallow angle would mean the rail could slide around and dislodge the location of the knuckle?

 

The wing rail radius for my chosen prototype is between 14' and 21' - I'm not sure if that's practical to bend, I can't quite see how I'd manage to get such a shallow radius over such a short distance - one of those things that gets lost when scaling down?

[hayfield]

If the wing rail is both cut to size correctly and bent at the correct angle when you fit it using gauges from the stock rail and having a cut down checkrail chair at the end of the flare (B timber position) it should all fit nicely

 

Are you building in P4 or EM ?   If P4 you use the check chairs as is, EM they need to be cut through

 

If you are worried about rail creep, use some solvent to the rail/chair joint. I use the plastic functional H section fishplates to connect the switch rail to the common crossing

 

Happy to chat it through if that helps PM me with your phone number

[Lacathedrale]

I'm trying P4. I have the B-chair from the exactoscale sprue but it's split, presumably expecting PCB/shim to support the wing rail against the vee, so I'll still need to use the check rail chair?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I'm trying P4. I have the B-chair from the exactoscale sprue but it's split, presumably expecting PCB/shim to support the wing rail against the vee, so I'll still need to use the check rail chair?

 

The Exactoscale special chairs are designed for their now unavailable P4 Track Company Kits. There are no centre parts for the X chair position. You will also find on the additional switch chairs the 2PL position chair is missing the middle, not all C position central parts of the block chairs are there etc. For the scratch builder sometimes its a bit of adapting parts

 

For P4 the check chairs remain in one piece. and the stock rail in this area is not set with either a roller or 3 point gauge buy by a checkrail gauge. If you are modelling to P4 gauge the Turnout and crossing bases are a great time saver

 

C&L are about to release a new P4 flexi track, 1.6mm thick sleepers, 60' panels, keys in the chairs in both 2 & 3 bolt versions. EM gauge versions will also be available

[Lacathedrale]

Hi @hayfield - sorry to bother you - I'm following your process at the top of page 3 and it's going well so far, but I seem to have missed a step - you have the straight stock rail, vee and curved-side wing rail in place (as I do), but the next photograph shows the curved stock rail in place and gauges on the other wing rail. I assume as per the page 1 build you set the curved stock rail (by eye) a bit further towards the toe (as per page 1 build), and then gauged the wing rail off of it?

 

I am a bit concerned that I'm going to get the order wrong at this point so if it's possible to clarify that would be excellent.

 

I think I now understand that you are leaving the middle of the check-rail-chair-used-as-a-b-chair in place to maintain the check rail gap automatically?

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[hayfield]

I think I have missed a part of the instructions, before fitting the second wing rail I fit the curved rail, but I only stick the chairs with gauges up to the end of the wing rail. I use roller gauges at the end and a check rail gauge from the tip of the vee, the remaining 2 stockrail chairs plus the next standard chair I use a straight edge.

 

Now (because I use the Exactoscale special switch chairs) I fit the straight switch rail first, simply because its easier to fit the centre parts of the block rail chairs, and it gives me the correct positioning of the curved stock and wing rails at PL3 and PL4 positions. If you don't use these chairs I guess its personal choice which rails to use first

 

 

 

A close up vies of the block rail chair centre parts (3rd and 4th timbers from the left)  the next two timbers have slide chairs which grip the stock rail. Only one is supplied in the pack (as in the kit the switch rail is joined to the stock rail with a metal plate) I fit a standard chair then trim it back a bit, and fit a slide chair slide plate

 

 

This might make it a bit clearer

[hayfield]

Especially with P4 gauge turnout and crossings its worth taking the gauges off once the joint has initially started to set, certainly after an hour or so. This lets the chairs relax back into shape, especially important if the gauges are a tight fit, and if they are check that the gauge has not narrowed

 

To remind people, older gauges were designed to hold the rails upright (fine for soldered track)

 

Chairs (C&L and Exactoscale) the chairs hold the rail on an inward cant, the gauges for chaired track are made to allow the head of the rail to rotate in it. ensure the gauge is neither too tight or deep, its very important in P4 gauge, quite important in EM and 00SF gauges, not so important in 00 gauge owing to the wider tolerances 

[NFWEM57]

On 12/07/2016 at 08:56, hayfield said:

Which I forgot to add another important point, just before the 3rd timber on the left there is a red line on Templot plans. This is called the set where you MUST put a slight bend in the rail

Do you have a picture of this by way of example?

[martin_wynne]

4 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Do you have a picture of this by way of example?

 

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Do you have a picture of this by way of example?

 

As you can see on this Templot plan the Set in the curved stock rail is just before the switch blade tips, Templot also shows the length of the plane on the switch rails. C&L plans show the Set but do not make any reference to it

 

Its always good to get a good plan, you will probably find Societies like the EM Gauge and P4 Societies show the set and explain it in the build notes, but who reads instructions ?

 

SMP plans are a bit old school, being to a radius rather than prototypical and have the (Peco) bent/broken timber at the heal end

[NFWEM57]

Martin, hayfield,

 

Thank you for your efforts to illustrate, but I should have been clearer.  A picture of the point you are working on, not the prototype or Templot prints..!  My bad, I should have been clearer.

 

Patrick

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Martin, hayfield,

 

Thank you for your efforts to illustrate, but I should have been clearer.  A picture of the point you are working on, not the prototype or Templot prints..!  My bad, I should have been clearer.

 

Patrick

 

Patrick

 

 

The angle does not show up very clearly at this angle, but its there and follows the plan. Neither side of the stock rails are stuck down yet, this may also distort the angle making it a bit shallower 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Hi @hayfield - I thought you're the man to ask about this - I've always built PCB pointwork on the bench and transferred as a whole unit to the layout. Using ply or plastic sleepered track and the inherent flexibility, I'm a little worried about doing this in P4/EM. Do you have any thoughts? I was planning on using Woodland Scenics roadbed which would preclude using ply sub-bases...

[hayfield]

William

 

I build all my turnouts and crossings on the bench, though my recent build was directly on to the track bed, but as it only measured 48" x 8" it fitted comfortably on the bench anyway

 

My usual method is to use a building board, the composite clip together flooring are Idea and have quite a collection including a 4' x 1' one

 

I stick the plan to the building board with mashing tape, and do the same with tracing paper. then I cut appx 3mm wide strips of double sided tape  along the outside of both stock rails and lay the timbers(plastic or ply) on to it. I use the cheap rolls of double sided from Hobbycraft (we only want it to stick for a short time)

 

Use the recommended solvent (Butanone) if using ply timbers, there will not be an issue with normal chairs removing from the backing, especially if you soak the double sided tape with white spirit for a few mins. Slide chairs need a little help, I use a dab of industrial super glue between the rail and chair bit of the slide chair. If these timbers with slide chairs do come unstuck its easy enough to put them back in place when laying the turnout.

 

An alternative from Exactoscale are these turnout and crossing bases, I think they are only available from the P4 Society Stores (I dont think the EMGS stock them)

4mm scale P4 Turnout bases (4TB)

 4TB A5L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A5 L/H

 4TB A5R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A5 R/H

4TB A6L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A6 L/H

4TB A6R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A6 R/H

4TB A7L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A7 L/H

4TB A7R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – A7 R/H

4TB B7L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – B7 L/H

4TB B7R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – B7 R/H

4TB B8L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – B8 L/H

4TB B8R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – B8 R/H

4TB C10L P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – C10 L/H

4TB C10R P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – C10 R/H

4TB DIAM P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – Diamond 1:8

4TB DS8 P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – Double Slip 1:8

4TB SS8 P4 Turnout Base – Plastic – Single Slip 1:8

 

The turnouts are fine for EM gauge, but you will have to slightly alter the crossings and slips for EM gauge

 

  An A5 right handed

 

These are great time savers and totally solve the issue about strength, laser cut ply bases are much the same

 

The pips mean you have to use Exactoscale chairs but they work for EM or P4 as there is a bit of movement

 

If making a slip or crossing for EM the distance between the tip of the vees differ, just print out a Templot plan and adjust the gap accordingly. If you but a laser cut ply base marked EM or P4 check it against an appropriate plan

 

But back to your question, the short answer is there are no issues, just be careful when taking the backing off

Edited January 11, 2022 by hayfield

[Lacathedrale]

What's the tracing paper used for? To keep the template clean and reusable? I imagine with copperclad strip under the vee/wing/check rails holding those all in alignment that makes alot of sense. I was originally using purely functional chairs but I think I'll try the brass strip method next. 0.6mm for the support and the EMGS crossing jig? I was definitely planning for ply timbers - I have MEK currently - should I specifically pick up Butanone?

[hayfield]

Tracing paper is just habit, plus it looks a bit better than a cut up plan. With my latest build (

) Not a piece of copperclad in sight, all rails held in place with chairs, just the Vee is soldered. The wing rails held in place with chairs, just quite a few extra droppers

 

I prefer plastic timbers and unless you are staining the timbers and not using plastic flexitrack why bother ?

 

If its MEK (not Mekpac) its fine, that is what Butanone is