Kitmaster -is this possible, or just a daft idea?

[detheridge]

Hi folks,

It occurred to me quite a few years ago that wit the advent of computer scanning it might be possible to make new masters of old kits where the masters have been destroyed or lost.

The typical case is Kitmaster, where some of the originals had sledgehammers put through them when Airfix bit the dust in the 80s (I read somewhere a few years ago of someone who went to the factory to find that this had happened with the masters for the Stirling single.

So: with modern technology, could it be possible to scan unmade kits and use the data to create new masters? Or is this idea completely mad?

 

Best wishes,

David.

[Nearholmer]

We all know what happened in Jurassic Park, don't we ...........

 

K

[Moxy]

Hi folks,

It occurred to me quite a few years ago that wit the advent of computer scanning it might be possible to make new masters of old kits where the masters have been destroyed or lost.

The typical case is Kitmaster, where some of the originals had sledgehammers put through them when Airfix bit the dust in the 80s (I read somewhere a few years ago of someone who went to the factory to find that this had happened with the masters for the Stirling single.

So: with modern technology, could it be possible to scan unmade kits and use the data to create new masters? Or is this idea completely mad?

 

Best wishes,

David.

 

In theory, yes it is possible.  Isn't that what Amercom (sp?) did with their 'Great British Locomotives' series last year?  The real question should be - is it worth doing it?

 

Another thing to consider is even if the tooling doesn't exist anymore, does the design of the kits still remain with Kitmaster, which is now owned by Dapol?  They might not be very happy if versions of their older kits started to reappear on the market.

 

We all know what happened in Jurassic Park, don't we ...........

 

K

 

I now have nightmare visions of bring pursued by a ravenous mutant Stirling Single....

[Trainshed Terry]

If you go to the following web site there are plains to do the "Sterling Single".

 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/

 

Terry

[Golden Fleece 30]

There will be a bit of difference in price though, even the deposit is about 3 times what a kit would be.  I know the finish etc of Locomotions will be good but not to a couple of hundred (at least).

 

Garry

Edited July 11, 2016 by Golden Fleece 30

[Culmhead]

Hi,

 

Despite the practical and cost issues, I would have thought that Dapol could not have purchased moulds that had been destroyed years earlier.  Whether they purchased, the intellectual property rights (or could have, even) for these, I really don't know.  Just a thought!

 

Cheers,

 

Aidan

[chris p bacon]

There will be a bit of difference in price though, even the deposit is about 3 times what a kit would be.  I know the finish etc of Locomotions will be good but not to a couple of hundred (at least).

 

Garry

I've tried motorising a Kitmaster Single and what Locomotion want is small beer compared to the pain of that 

[Horsetan]

If you go to the following web site there are plains to do the "Sterling Single".

 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/

 

Terry

Yes, it costs a lot of, er, sterling....

[Nearholmer]

Just remember, it has got a tender behind.

 

I know that there is a weird, irrational phobia about motorised tenders, but they are no dafter than filling the boiler with an electric motor.

 

K

[rue_d_etropal]

When it comes to scanning/copying old kits, then i know this has been happening for many years in the sci-fi modelling arena, certainly moulding, and I assume now 3D scanning and printing. As far as I know, no-one has complained. This will probably become even more common in future(maybe Dapol are waiting for the right moment to scan and print the Stirling kit), but as most cases are for one off or personal interest suspect no action will be taken. Everyone is getting better products thanks to 3D scanning and printing, and ability to replicate spare parts will save manufacturers having to worry about it. As long as no-one tries to pass off 3D printed items as genuine originals from kits, then no-one is going to worry. The only winner would be the legal profession.

Talking of the Amercom magazine models, I could understand them getting away with copying old(and in most cases inaccurate) models, but some were quite recent. possibly had more to do with the lax attitude to copying in China, but does not explain why no one complained in UK. I actually felt a bit let down by the quality, when models produced for Europe were more often originals, not copies of old models, and were better quality. This is not just model railways, compare many of the cars, bus lorries produced for part work magazines and we get poorer quality usually.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Andy Y

[PhilJ W]

There were plans to re-create some of the Airfix 1/32 car kits by scanning unmade kits and recreating the masters, models such as the Austin Maxi and Vauxhall Victor estate. I think the difficulty was finding an unmade kit or kits in perfect condition but I understand the project is still ongoing.

[rue_d_etropal]

Finding unmade kits is not the problem, being prepared to pay the price does put some off, but this is what Sci-fi modellers have been doing for years. Look back at old Sci-fi from 60s and 70s and you will start to recognise the original kits, even when only part is used. Only way to replicate those classic sci-fi models is to buy an original kit(some don't come cheap), make a copy of the part required without damaging the kit(more difficult if sealed in bag), put back in packaging and sell it on(sometimes at a profit). The collectors get their unmade and undamaged kits, the modellers get the parts copied they require.

I think the problem with car kits would relate more to licensing of the car manufacturer. Unofficial models rarely state the actual vehicle make(trade mark), but to everyone it is obviously a certain vehicle.

[Il Grifone]

An interesting idea.

 

Even at collector's prices, the cost would be shared between all the copies. The problem I can see is that 3D printing is not all that cheap and most kits consist of several sprues, each of which would require a separate scan. Intellectual property rights are another matter. It's one thing to make a near (and inferior) copy of a complete model and another to make an exact copy of the parts.

 

I think the tender drive is the way to go with the Stirling Single. There is not a lot of room in the boiler for a motor and sufficient weight for traction. Possibly a tender mounted motor driving the locomotive via a shaft drive?

[Golden Fleece 30]

David, what about the Lord of the Isles chassis modified for a connecting rod? The bodies are similar although without a single to hand I cannot say. As you have seen my 3-rail Lord of the Isles will pull 9 Exleys so it should be okay for this, shouldn't it?

 

Garry

[PhilJ W]

Finding unmade kits is not the problem, being prepared to pay the price does put some off, but this is what Sci-fi modellers have been doing for years. Look back at old Sci-fi from 60s and 70s and you will start to recognise the original kits, even when only part is used. Only way to replicate those classic sci-fi models is to buy an original kit(some don't come cheap), make a copy of the part required without damaging the kit(more difficult if sealed in bag), put back in packaging and sell it on(sometimes at a profit). The collectors get their unmade and undamaged kits, the modellers get the parts copied they require.

I think the problem with car kits would relate more to licensing of the car manufacturer. Unofficial models rarely state the actual vehicle make(trade mark), but to everyone it is obviously a certain vehicle.

One problem is that some plastics can change over time and become brittle or warped. This can vary from kit to kit due to such factors as storage conditions and exposure to light or even damp.

[Horsetan]

Some plastics were brittle to start with!

[PhilJ W]

Some plastics were brittle to start with!

Agreed, but very few such kits seem to have survived. Another problem that occured was when two different plastics were involved that reacted with each other. The most common example being the Airfix military tank kits where the vinyll tracks used to melt the polystyrene.

[Talltim]

I think it would be possible, but not the best use of time. By the time you've cleaned up the scans you might as well have designed a new kit, and then you could incorporate improvements to the design and detail.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Another thing to consider is even if the tooling doesn't exist anymore, does the design of the kits still remain with Kitmaster, which is now owned by Dapol?  They might not be very happy if versions of their older kits started to reappear on the market...

Dapol are as free to do this as any other business. That they have not done it as a range extension of their existing ex-Kimaster via Airfix product over the past twenty some years might suggest something.

 

The Rapido/Locomotion Stirling Single production is likely to shake a fair few of the old kits out I would suggest. As already suggested above, the asking price for the new item is worth it; in that someone else will have torn their hair out over making a reliable running product of a model of accurate appearance of this extremely awkward prototype. Mr Stirling could scarcely have done more to produce what is a small loco that only wants to run on straight track.

 

 

...what about the Lord of the Isles chassis modified for a connecting rod? The bodies are similar although without a single to hand I cannot say...

 Have you seen Mike Trice's project to carve a Stiriling Single out of a Bachmann 'Emily'? That's a good measure of what you are up against trying to get there via RTR parts. (It's in 'Modifying RTR')

[Horsetan]

An interesting idea.

 

Even at collector's prices, the cost would be shared between all the copies. The problem I can see is that 3D printing is not all that cheap and most kits consist of several sprues, each of which would require a separate scan. Intellectual property rights are another matter. It's one thing to make a near (and inferior) copy of a complete model and another to make an exact copy of the parts.

 

I think the tender drive is the way to go with the Stirling Single. There is not a lot of room in the boiler for a motor and sufficient weight for traction. Possibly a tender mounted motor driving the locomotive via a shaft drive?

 

Here's one somebody made earlier....

[chris p bacon]

 

Here's one somebody made earlier....

Or rather "hasn't finished and it's at the bottom of the pile"

 

I'll come back to it as I am determined to finish,  but I need to rethink the cylinders as the tolerance is so tight, I'd love to see the one Dan Pinnock made.

[kevinlms]

Just remember, it has got a tender behind.

 

I know that there is a weird, irrational phobia about motorised tenders, but they are no dafter than filling the boiler with an electric motor.

 

K

Actually what is worse, is a motorised tender, pushing a loco along with jammed valve gear!

[Kenton]

 

Just remember, it has got a tender behind.

 

I know that there is a weird, irrational phobia about motorised tenders, but they are no dafter than filling the boiler with an electric motor.

 

K

 

Or even motorising a wagon or a coach, has been done and works just as well even if it does look rather surreal seeing a van going LE around a layout.

 

I'm not so sure that the Kitmaster designs are so good a starting point and with all the effort entailed it might be better, even easier, to design a new kit to today's finer standards. At least that way you can proudly call it your own and have no fear from lawyers-r-us.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Sorry for slight of topic but just for interest here is my Lord of the Isles, 3-railed running through different tracks, Dublo and modern later style Peco.

 

 

It shows what a 4-2-2 can do.

 

Garry

[sharris]

 

Here's one somebody made earlier....

 

Given that the Kitmaster models are from over 50 years ago and created to plastic kit standards of the 1950s and 1960s, I suspect the only value in exactly copying the kits would be nostalgia value, and the time might be better spent redesigning the models to modern standards. It looks like Dave has done some considerable redesigns on his already!

 

Edit - looks like I was duplicating Kenton's thinking there! 

Edited July 12, 2016 by sharris