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GWR Hawksworth coaches pre nationalisation


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  • RMweb Gold

i have seen a lot of second hand mention of GWR Hawksworth coaches in service prior to nationalisation, including a formation on the Cornish Riviera Ltd containing BTKs and TKs, and a second Ltd formation in the Kingstorre article in MRJ containing the same.

 

I have also seen mention (including one photo of a coach only) that Hawksworth BCKs also saw service in 1947.

 

I was hoping that someone might have came across more photographic evidence of this, including what the rest of the formation was comprised of. I couldn't resist adding another BCK to my fleet last night, and now need to find a use for it....

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Based on Harris and the lot lists contained therein, it would seem that some TKs and BTKs were used on the Riviera, but not necessarily as a block of coaches. It is unlikely that any BCKs made it into service prior to 1948, though. The first lot completed (1705, 10 coaches) wasn't completed until the end of July 1948, so it is unlikely that the first coach of the lot was completed before nationalization.

 

Adrian

Edited by Adrian Wintle
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  • RMweb Gold

Based on Harris and the lot lists contained therein, it would seem that some TKs and BTKs were used on the Riviera, but not necessarily as a block of coaches. It is unlikely that any BCKs made it into service prior to 1948, though. The first lot completed (1705, 10 coaches) wasn't completed until the end of July 1948, so it is unlikely that the first coach of the lot was completed before nationalization.Adrian

In that case I assume the photo I have seen must have been the first of that batch, and delivered at the end of '47. Would be interesting to know what Swindon's production rate was on these coaches...

So in reality would certainly not exist in my late June period. However for the mean time a slight bit of modellers licence will be needed, as with the other Hawksworth coaches using on the Ltd sounds most plausible.

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Similarly the Hawksworth BGs (K45/46) didn't enter service until after nationalisation either.

 

There was a fairly substantial article on Hawksworth coaches in one of the magazines fairly recently (might have been GWR Journal but I cannot confirm without flipping back through my collection). The gist of the article was that with post-war shortages of both men and materials, delivery of the Hawksworths was pretty slow and (with a few honourable exceptions such as the CRLtd), they were not delivered in blocks. Instead, they were added to the coaching pool in dribs and drabs to replace the most elderly coaches still in service. The GWR didn't tend to keep matching rakes outside of it named expresses anyway so this mix'n'match approach would not have been out of character.

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If it helps, here is the formation of one of the Riviera sets in 1947 as listed in Harris [there were of course two sets]:

 

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 838

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 792

Third C73 [Collett] - 1490

Composite E158 [Collett] - 7327

Composite E155 [Collett] - 6136

Dining car H26 [Collett 70 ft] - 9571

First A22 [Collett] - 8100

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 800

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] 837

 

-and the Plymouth portion:

 

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 803

First A20 [Collett] - 8044

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 844

 

One might have thought that nothing but the latest stock was good enough for the Riviera and through most of history this was indeed the case.  Before the advent of the BR Mk 1 in the 1950s there was a time when at least one Riviera set was all Hawksworth bar the diner, because there were no Hawksworth diners!  No BCKs though, as Adrian said.

 

Chris 

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If it helps, here is the formation of one of the Riviera sets in 1947 as listed in Harris [there were of course two sets]:

 

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 838

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 792

Third C73 [Collett] - 1490

Composite E158 [Collett] - 7327

Composite E155 [Collett] - 6136

Dining car H26 [Collett 70 ft] - 9571

First A22 [Collett] - 8100

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 800

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] 837

 

-and the Plymouth portion:

 

Third C82 [Hawksworth] - 803

First A20 [Collett] - 8044

Brake Third D131 [Hawksworth] - 844

 

One might have thought that nothing but the latest stock was good enough for the Riviera and through most of history this was indeed the case.  Before the advent of the BR Mk 1 in the 1950s there was a time when at least one Riviera set was all Hawksworth bar the diner, because there were no Hawksworth diners!  No BCKs though, as Adrian said.

 

Chris

With the exception of the one C73, the Collett stock makes up the First-class (and compo) and catering stock which couldn't have been Hawksworth stock at that time (none yet built). The C73 may have been at least as luxurious as the C82s.

 

Adrian

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Thanks

 

I didn't think so. I was confused by the comment above about none having been built yet

 

There was a proposal for an 'Automatic' Buffet Car announced in January 1946. Harris devotes a page to it including an artist's impression.

 

The Engineer of Jan 11 1946 has a brief paragraph:—

 

G.W.R. AUTOMATIC BUFFET CARS.-

The Great Western Railway proposes to introduce, as soon as conditions permit, a new type of automatic buffet car, specially suited for use on short main line services.

The cars will enable passengers to purchase snacks at any time on a journey by putting sixpence or a shilling into one of the many slot compartments provided.

Entrance to the cars will be by a centre door at each end. Fluorescent lighting is to be installed.

The 'conditions' presumably related to Rationing restrictions.

 

P.

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There was a proposal for an 'Automatic' Buffet Car announced in January 1946. Harris devotes a page to it including an artist's impression.

 

The Engineer of Jan 11 1946 has a brief paragraph:—

 

 

The 'conditions' presumably related to Rationing restrictions.

 

P.

 

Now there would be a novelty coach for Hornby, along the lines of there Royal Mail coach, but spraying ham sandwiches instead!

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Wasn't there a prototype 'Automatic Buffet', based on a Siphon G?

The association of Hawkesworth stock and the CRE continued long after they had been displaced by Mk1 stock elsewhere; an example was coupled between the loco and train on Up services, Apparently, it was because the compartment doors were large enough to allow a catering trolley to enter and be locked away when not required. Three even received blue and grey livery, and the practice seems to have survived until 1967 or '68- 'Heyday of the Warships' has a couple of photos showing the practice.

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  • 2 years later...
2 hours ago, gwrrob said:

A bump for this thread to ask if anyone knows the differences between the Hawksworth brake thirds D131of '47 and the D133 of '49 please.

 

Looking through both Harris (1993 edition) & Russell (Coaches Appendix Vol. 1), the only external difference I can see is that D.133 had a sliding vent fitted in the corridor side.

 

The big difference appears to be internally; D.131 had wood veneer panelling & D.133 had Holoplast/Formica.

All the D.133s were contract-built.

 

Didcot's E.164 7372's Thirds are fitted out in Light Oak like this:

 

7372_Hawks_3rd_01.JPG.5847b9eaad498e3b813d37699fd1517a.JPG

7372_Hawks_3rd_05.JPG.d383afb1e84f7da45d2d8a52db436b42.JPG

 

(The Firsts are in Maple)

 

Pete S.

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On 14/07/2016 at 15:25, Karhedron said:

Similarly the Hawksworth BGs (K45/46) didn't enter service until after nationalisation either.

 

There was a fairly substantial article on Hawksworth coaches in one of the magazines fairly recently (might have been GWR Journal but I cannot confirm without flipping back through my collection). The gist of the article was that with post-war shortages of both men and materials, delivery of the Hawksworths was pretty slow 

 

My understanding is that the biggest problem was a prolonged labour dispute. I can't find the details right now, I think it was in RAIL 254/548, but if memory serves me correctly there was a demarcation dispute within the works over who was going to perform certain tasks on the new design coaches. Hawksworth, again IIRC (bearing in mind it was his job to sort these things out) somewhat spun the situation to the directors, claiming that as they couldn't  build new coaches they were very well advanced with catching up on the wartime backlog of repairs to the old stock...

Edited by JimC
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  • 1 year later...
  • RMweb Gold
On 21/02/2019 at 14:59, gwrrob said:

A bump for this thread to ask if anyone knows the differences between the Hawksworth brake thirds D131of '47 and the D133 of '49 please.

 

On 21/02/2019 at 17:28, K14 said:

 

Looking through both Harris (1993 edition) & Russell (Coaches Appendix Vol. 1), the only external difference I can see is that D.133 had a sliding vent fitted in the corridor side.

 

The big difference appears to be internally; D.131 had wood veneer panelling & D.133 had Holoplast/Formica.

All the D.133s were contract-built.

 

 

I was about to ask the same question as Rob in a new thread after being unable to find any photos of the D.131 in Russell.   Now I am going to dig out my copy of Harris (and hope that its recent enough to contain the photo).  I need to see that sliding vent to work out if its going to be possible to add it.   Then I need to renumber my other Hawksworth brake to 837 to go with 838 which was renumbered this morning. 

 

 

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I am not sure but one explanation I have heard is that some materials had to be substituted for lower quality equivalents due to post-war shortages. The vehicles would have looked pretty much the same externally.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 22/05/2020 at 09:58, The Fatadder said:

I was about to ask the same question as Rob in a new thread after being unable to find any photos of the D.131 in Russell.   Now I am going to dig out my copy of Harris (and hope that its recent enough to contain the photo).  

 

A related diversion if i may about the Russell books. I have appendix volume 1 and was going to pick up volume 2 which i presume covers auto trailer and full brakes.

 

I'm not sure how the pictorial record books compare - are they basically covering the same material or is one of these considered more useful for modellers? 

 

Ta

 

 

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