Signaller69's projects

[Signaller69]

36 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

It was the wagon that originated that chassis which is why the TTAs have some odd handles and things under them. The Bowaters slurry tank came next (1969) and the grain hopper without a roof as an open hopper (also 1969), then a plate wagon (1972). The TTA tank which was relatively late (1973 in the Silver Seal range) despite being an obvious one to put on that chassis.

Thanks Bernard,

 

So the Triang/Hornby grain hopper must have been up to the minute "current scene" when it was first released then (1968?), istr the real things only started to appear around 1966.....

 

Martyn

Edited April 16, 2019 by Signaller69

[Signaller69]

I had an enjoyable afternoon at York Show today; as chance would have it, Bachmann were showing their forthcoming "Whiskies Galore" Distillery themed train set consisting of a DCC sound fitted BR green Class 20, 3x BRT Grain Hoppers with different advertising hoardings and a BR Standard Brake Van. The Grain Hoppers are unmistakably the old Liliput-based mouldings, still lacking NEM coupling pockets but the finish is Bachmann's usual top quality of course. Might look for some "split from sets".

 

I managed to pick up a few more Cambrian suspension kits to do my other Lima wagons amongst various modelling supplies. Excellent show as usual.

[Fat Controller]

On 16/04/2019 at 23:33, Signaller69 said:

Thanks Bernard,

 

So the Triang/Hornby grain hopper must have been up to the minute "current scene" when it was first released then (1968?), istr the real things only started to appear around 1966.....

 

Martyn

Triang-Hornby were often very up-to-date with modern stock at the time. The bogie tank in Gulf livery appeared at the same time as the prototype, as did the Cartic-2. This sometimes led to free publicity on Blue Peter; John Noakes at Kenny O, anyone?

Sometimes, they brought the model out before the final iteration of the prototype; I believe this was the case with the 58.

[Signaller69]

Just needs the Kadee couplings screwing back on now. Quite pleased that the new suspension mods have blended in so well.

 

Difference in height is quite marked with the modified wagon on the left.

 

The overheight Lima suspension is clear to see on the right:

I have now found diagrams with main dimensions on the Barrowmore site, BR Diagrams of PO Wagons Part 1 (Vehicle Diagram book 300 part 1);

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

The Lima model appears based on PA004B (ex PO diagram 6/402), recalculating the main dimensions to 1/76 gives a length over end ladders (7975mm) of 104.9mm, height (3708mm) of 48.8mm and wheelbase (4572mm)  of 60.2mm. It appears spot on in all but height which comes in (unmodified) at approx 50.5mm with scale wheels.

 

The Liliput/Bachmann pattern (PA003A, ex PO diagram 6/400) gives scale length (7824mm over headstocks) 102.9mm, height (3702mm) 48.7mm and the same wheelbase of (4572mm) 60.2mm. Thus the model is a little undersize at 100mm long, wheelbase of c. 58mm, but height is actually very close at 49mm on scale wheels. Comparison in the flesh shows little obvious difference in overall dimensions however:

 

So I have another 2 Lima suspension mods to do, before working out improvements to 7 Liliput/Bachmann models....

Edited April 26, 2019 by Signaller69
Correction to name of diagram book on the Barrowmore link

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, Signaller69 said:

Just needs the Kadee couplings screwing back on now. Quite pleased that the new suspension mods have blended in so well.

 

Difference in height is quite marked with the modified wagon on the left.

 

The overheight Lima suspension is clear to see on the right:

I have now found diagrams with main dimensions on the Barrowmore site, BR Diagrams of PO Wagons Part 1 (Vehicle Diagram book 300 part 1);

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

The Lima model appears based on PA004B (ex PO diagram 6/402), recalculating the main dimensions to 1/76 gives a length over end ladders (7975mm) of 104.9mm, height (3708mm) of 48.8mm and wheelbase (4572mm)  of 60.2mm. It appears spot on in all but height which comes in (unmodified) at approx 50.5mm with scale wheels.

 

The Liliput/Bachmann pattern (PA003A, ex PO diagram 6/400) gives scale length (7824mm over headstocks) 102.9mm, height (3702mm) 48.7mm and the same wheelbase of (4572mm) 60.2mm. Thus the model is a little undersize at 100mm long, wheelbase of c. 58mm, but height is actually very close at 49mm on scale wheels. Comparison in the flesh shows little obvious difference in overall dimensions however:

 

So I have another 2 Lima suspension mods to do, before working out improvements to 7 Liliput/Bachmann models....

Hi Martyn,

 

Did you happen to find out how the dimensions of the Hornby model work out for as a true scale size model ?

 

I know that the diagram that the Hornby model is built to also had suspension pedestals fitted in place of the "W" irons latterly as you have done with the Lima wagons.

 

As the dimensions go it would seem that the height and width are much more of an issue than the length when assemble as a train especially as they are slightly different in any case.

 

Gibbo.

[Signaller69]

37 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Martyn,

 

Did you happen to find out how the dimensions of the Hornby model work out for as a true scale size model ?

 

I know that the diagram that the Hornby model is built to also had suspension pedestals fitted in place of the "W" irons latterly as you have done with the Lima wagons.

 

As the dimensions go it would seem that the height and width are much more of an issue than the length when assemble as a train especially as they are slightly different in any case.

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo,

 

sorry I forgot the Hornby version.

 

from the body dimensions you gave it appears a tad too long (should be 102.9mm over headstocks/end posts). Max width over side bracing on the early pattern (ie Hornby & Liliput / Bachmann) scales to 35.1mm & later (Lima) at 35.25mm; you give an end width of 31.7mm which sounds a little narrow, the Liliput/ Bachmann being c.32.5mm and the Lima at c. 33.5mm (side bracing adds to this of course and both the Lil/Bach and Lima measure c.34.5mm max width); the later (As per Lima) versions also have a slight end framing taper from top to bottom, the earlier ones don't.

Buffer heights; scale (1067mm) 14.03mm, Liliput/Bachmann with scale wheels 14mm, Lima (scale wheels) c.15.5mm, my conversion c.13.75mm.

 

Length over buffers for all versions scales at (8864mm) 116.6mm. Liliput/Bachmann = c.113mm, Lima also = c.113mm.

 

Hornby wheelbase should be (4572mm) 60.2mm, not sure what the model is though.

 

Note my measurements used a steel rule not calipers, so are approximate.

 

Hope this helps.

Martyn.

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Hi Gibbo,

 

sorry I forgot the Hornby version.

 

from the body dimensions you gave it appears a tad too long (should be 102.9mm over headstocks/end posts). Max width over side bracing on the early pattern (ie Hornby & Liliput / Bachmann) scales to 35.1mm & later (Lima) at 35.25mm; you give an end width of 31.7mm which sounds a little narrow, the Liliput/ Bachmann being c.32.5mm and the Lima at c. 33.5mm (side bracing adds to this of course and both the Lil/Bach and Lima measure c.34.5mm max width); the later (As per Lima) versions also have a slight end framing taper from top to bottom, the earlier ones don't.

Buffer heights; scale (1067mm) 14.03mm, Liliput/Bachmann with scale wheels 14mm, Lima (scale wheels) c.15.5mm, my conversion c.13.75mm.

 

Length over buffers for all versions scales at (8864mm) 116.6mm. Liliput/Bachmann = c.113mm, Lima also = c.113mm.

 

Hornby wheelbase should be (4572mm) 60.2mm, not sure what the model is though.

 

Note my measurements used a steel rule not calipers, so are approximate.

 

Hope this helps.

Martyn.

Hi Martyn,

 

Here are the missed dimensions marked * added to the original set for the Hornby model:

• Centre height of buffers - 14mm. Correct.
• Top of sole bar - 16mm. Correct.
• Length over corner posts - 104.5mm.  1.6mm too long.
• Width over corner posts - 31.7mm.  1.6mm too narrow ?
• Top of sole bar to walk way - 34.75mm.  2mm too tall
• Top of sole bar to cantrail - 27.2mm size unkown.
• *Width over side bracinging - 33.5mm. 1.6mm too narrow.
• *Width over hopper side sheets - 31mm Size unknown.
• *Wheel base - 60mm Correct.
• *Length over buffers - 115.8mm  0.8mm too short.
• *Height form rail - 50.75mm.  2mm too tall.

It would seem that the Hornby model is on a chassis that is dimensionally correct despite being a little coarse, for length it is a little long and a slight too tall, it is also a slight narrow.

 

I shall have to look to see if I may be able to remove the roof, cut the top edge of the hopper down and refit the roof for a more accurate model or whether or not it will reduce by too much the end dimension of the vertical part of the hopper sides.

 

Gibbo.

[Signaller69]

4 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Martyn,

 

Here are the missed dimensions marked * added to the original set for the Hornby model:

• Centre height of buffers - 14mm. Correct.
• Top of sole bar - 16mm. Correct.
• Length over corner posts - 104.5mm.  1.6mm too long.
• Width over corner posts - 31.7mm.  1.6mm too narrow ?
• Top of sole bar to walk way - 34.75mm.  2mm too tall
• Top of sole bar to cantrail - 27.2mm size unkown.
• *Width over side bracinging - 33.5mm. 1.6mm too narrow.
• *Width over hopper side sheets - 31mm Size unknown.
• *Wheel base - 60mm Correct.
• *Length over buffers - 115.8mm  0.8mm too short.
• *Height form rail - 50.75mm.  2mm too tall.

It would seem that the Hornby model is on a chassis that is dimensionally correct despite being a little coarse, for length it is a little long and a slight too tall, it is also a slight narrow.

 

I shall have to look to see if I may be able to remove the roof, cut the top edge of the hopper down and refit the roof for a more accurate model or whether or not it will reduce by too much the end dimension of the vertical part of the hopper sides.

 

Gibbo.

Just goes to show, each version has pros and cons, which only really become apparent by comparing them. It's the old adage of paying your money and taking your choice and perhaps fettling to improve them if the mood takes you.

 

I would be interested to see how you get on with the Hornby version Gibbo.

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Just goes to show, each version has pros and cons, which only really become apparent by comparing them. It's the old adage of paying your money and taking your choice and perhaps fettling to improve them if the mood takes you.

 

I would be interested to see how you get on with the Hornby version Gibbo.

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

Hi Martyn,

 

My thoughts exactly, although don't hold your breath for there is the small matter of loads of other stuff to get through yet !

 

Gibbo.

[turbos]

On 26/04/2019 at 19:30, Signaller69 said:

Just goes to show, each version has pros and cons, which only really become apparent by comparing them. It's the old adage of paying your money and taking your choice and perhaps fettling to improve them if the mood takes you.

 

I would be interested to see how you get on with the Hornby version Gibbo.

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

I too have a box of Whisky Blues which I have made a start on fettling to improve, 50/50 mix of Lima and Hornby. I chose the Hornby over the Trix/Lilliput/Bachmann version mainly as they were cheaper and more numerous, it wouldn't surprise me if Hornby have made over 10000 of them and they've certainly made well over 20000 underframes, so no worries if you destroy an underframe as there's plenty to be had for a couple of quid each. Both versions have different issues on length and height but they also have the same issues of vertical stanchion positioning (the Peco N gauge has the same issue) and poorly detailed underframe. Both versions can be made look OK alongside the Lima type but alongside each other just doesn't work. I've also used the Cambrian pedestal suspension kit under a Hornby grain hopper as the wagons on the East Anglia to North of Scotland route all appeared to have been modified by the early 70s, probably a reaction to the Thirsk accident. The Lima version still had examples carrying the advertising hoarding in the early 70s but had all lost them by the mid 70s, the Hornby and Bachmann version appeared to lose their hoardings around the same time as their suspension was changed.

Here's some pic's I took earlier today showing Lima, Trix and Hornby wagons together and a couple of the Hornby wagon I've been working on.

 

Slainte mhath,

 

Brian.

 

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, turbos said:

I too have a box of Whisky Blues which I have made a start on fettling to improve, 50/50 mix of Lima and Hornby.

 

Slainte mhath,

 

Brian.

 

Hi Brian,

 

Both excellent and interesting work here. The photo shews well how much taller the Hornby model is, Is it too tall or not, do you know ?

 

Do you have a thread ongoing shewing your work, I ask if only to make my task easier !

 

Gibbo.

[Signaller69]

2 hours ago, turbos said:

 

Here's some pic's I took earlier today showing Lima, Trix and Hornby wagons together and a couple of the Hornby wagon I've been working on.

 

Slainte mhath,

 

Brian.

 

 

 

 

Hi Brian,

Thanks for posting, looks a labour of love with the work put into the Hornby wagon, very nice work. I am going to have to do something similar as regards adding hopper extensions to the underframes of my Liliput wagons, and removing unwanted horizontal bracing. 

 

I have also seen very few photos of any wagons still having link suspension (as per the Liliput/Bachmann and Hornby versions) by the early 1970s.

 

Thanks,

Martyn.

[turbos]

20 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Brian,

 

Both excellent and interesting work here. The photo shews well how much taller the Hornby model is, Is it too tall or not, do you know ?

 

Do you have a thread ongoing shewing your work, I ask if only to make my task easier !

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo,

 

Thanks for your kind words, I don't have a thread yet on my work but I have posted pictures of my completed wagons in my blog. I will do a thread on a Whisky Blue when I do my second one now that I have some sort of idea what I'm doing. I do tend to jump from one wagon type to another so I don't get to bored/wagon blind, the Whisky Blue took over a year from initially dismantling it to this stage as I worked out what was required and where to source the necessary parts from. I currently have some VEA's, a Vanwide and some double door MDO's competing for my attention to complete, so it might be a wee while until the second Whisky Blue gets done.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[sb67]

Hi Martyn, just had a quick look through your thread and there's some great work going on, I'll have a proper look when I get time. The posts about wagon heights are interesting, have you ever done any work on Hornby air braked wagons? I've just reduced the height of a couple and wondered how high they should be and what better wheels I could fit to them. 

I'll be following your thread with interest.

Steve.

[Signaller69]

38 minutes ago, sb67 said:

Hi Martyn, just had a quick look through your thread and there's some great work going on, I'll have a proper look when I get time. The posts about wagon heights are interesting, have you ever done any work on Hornby air braked wagons? I've just reduced the height of a couple and wondered how high they should be and what better wheels I could fit to them. 

I'll be following your thread with interest.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comments.

 

Many years ago I lowered a Hornby OBA wagon by removing the pivoting function from the axleguards and some filing, before gluing the axleguards back in place, I don't recall it causing any problems with running using the original crude wheels, but whether it may have had problems with finer wheels I don't know. 

 

Height wise the buffer centres should be 14mm above rail height as a rule of thumb, in 4mm scale.

 

For re-wheeling older Hornby wagons I have used new Hornby, Alan Gibson or Romford wheels as the axle lengths are the same; for air braked stock you'd need to check but I'm guessing you would need the 12mm disc braked wheel style.

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

[Waveydavey]

The diagram of an OAA in the Don Rolland book ‘British Railways Wagons’ gives a total height of 2235mm which scales to 29.33mm in 4mm scale.

 

Once you correct the overall height you’ll find that Hornby put the buffers in the wrong place and you need to replace them about 1.5mm higher.

[Signaller69]

10 hours ago, Waveydavey said:

The diagram of an OAA in the Don Rolland book ‘British Railways Wagons’ gives a total height of 2235mm which scales to 29.33mm in 4mm scale.

 

Once you correct the overall height you’ll find that Hornby put the buffers in the wrong place and you need to replace them about 1.5mm higher.

Thanks for the info, some of these older models are a real minefield aren't they!

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

[Scottish Modeller]

On 29/04/2019 at 18:20, turbos said:

issues of vertical stanchion positioning (the Peco N gauge has the same issue) and poorly detailed underframe.

 

Slainte mhath,

 

Brian.

Hi Brian,

 

Yes - the Peco whisky wagon has problems and not only the stanchions!

 

I am part way through an aticle to go in the NGS magazine which covers my attempts to make the Peco wagons 'more like the real thing'.

 

I need to keep that private until the article has been published though......

 

Thanks

Phil H

[hmrspaul]

The Whisky wagons have been written up in

Ratcliffe, David (1994) Whisky on the Wagon - the operational history of the BRTE Bulk grain vans.      Modellers'Backtrack vol. 4 (part 1) pp 04 - 10.

 

Ratcliffe, David (2010)  'Modellers Guide to Whisky traffic'   Rail Express Modeller Supplement June 2010 pages 15-17

 

Mann, Trevor (2015) "BR's Whisky Makers" (BR Bulk Grain Vans) 'Rail Express Modeller' No 133 (May 2015), pages M14-M20

 

There is a scale drawing (not diagram) of the OAA in Bartlett, P., Larkin, D., Mann, T., Silsbury, R., and Ward, A. (1985) An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 published by Oxford Publishing Company, 192 pages.

 

Paul

[sb67]

23 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comments.

 

Many years ago I lowered a Hornby OBA wagon by removing the pivoting function from the axleguards and some filing, before gluing the axleguards back in place, I don't recall it causing any problems with running using the original crude wheels, but whether it may have had problems with finer wheels I don't know. 

 

Height wise the buffer centres should be 14mm above rail height as a rule of thumb, in 4mm scale.

 

For re-wheeling older Hornby wagons I have used new Hornby, Alan Gibson or Romford wheels as the axle lengths are the same; for air braked stock you'd need to check but I'm guessing you would need the 12mm disc braked wheel style.

 

Cheers,

Martyn.

 

Thanks Martyn, I do need to get some wheels. I hd some disc inserts I got from somewhere and painted and stuck in the plastic Hornby wheels the dont look too bad and as my current layout has code 100 track all works well.

Steve.

[Signaller69]

I have some projects for my Dunnington (DVLR) project, which is set around 1971 so these are likely to take precedence over the next few weeks. As with most modellers I tend to have a few different things "on the go", rolling stock wise, so as well as the grain hoppers mentioned previously I need to produce some key items of DVLR stock.

 

First up is a 6-wheel ex SECR 32' birdcage brake van. This was withdrawn in 1967 and left for the Bluebell Railway in 1972, but was such a key item I felt it should be modelled. There is an etched kit available but I had a Hornby 6w Palethorpes Sausages van so decided to see if that could find gainful employment. After seeing Gobbler's scratchbuilding thread I used plasticard and microstrip to produce the beaded  sides,  along with a couple of spare Guards duckets (Ratio MR type I think) which are similar to the prototype.

 

The roof posed more of a problem, but a spare Dapol Southern van body provided the answer - the roof was cut in half and a new section fabricated from plasticard to the same profile - with a square hole in the centre where the "birdcage" lookout will be fitted. The Dapol van also yielded its ends which were fettled and used on the new vehicle, fitted inside out. 

 

At this point I still need to extend the chassis and fit new bufferbeams and lower foot boards, as well as fabricating the birdcage and adding handrails and other body details. 

 

I have also purchased a Chivers RC464 LMS Bolster wagon and RC416 LNER Pigeon Van kit from "Slimrails". Pretty similar in design to Parkside kits, and similar price, but they come with cast metal buffers, brass wire and also NEM mounts for standard coupler pockets. I have built the Bolster wagon, minus Bolsters for use as the antique 6w crane match wagon (crane will be scratchbuilt), both these kits being of key items that the DVLR owned. Almost ready for the paintshop:

 

I have now also purchased 2 class 04's (thanks Trevor!) which will also visit the paint shops at some point.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Signaller69

[Signaller69]

Not a lot of modelling time currently but the "Birdcage" Guards lookout for the ex-SECR 6w brake is taking shape, following sanding of the roof to a profile I am happy with. The 2 ends sit inside the roof cutout, whilst the sides sit on the edge of the van roof. Rough window positions were drilled out before using a scalpel to remove unwanted material; some filing is needed yet, this will wait until the unit is fitted in place and thus more rigid.

Each of the 4 small windows on each side is sub 4mm across. The fresh green filler is covering a small fillet I had to add in the roof hole as it was a little too wide on one side; once this has cured and been sanded, the birdcage will be cemented in place.

 

The LNER 4w Pigeon Van meanwhile has been assembled, taking only a couple of hours; this was a very good kit to put together with clear instructions on "handing" the sides (only one side has a ducket) and all the parts fitted together squarely in recesses and rebates in most cases; the cast parts (buffers, dynamo, vac brake cylinder and battery boxes) being nice touches, with again, fully marked locations under the floor. Certainly seems some other kit manufacturers could take a leaf out of Chivers/Slimrails book.....

The roof is still loose of course. The moulded handrails will be sliced away and replaced with wire ones. Ironically the grey plastic isn't far off the livery it will carry when complete!

[Signaller69]

Both vans have had handrails added along with a few other fittings such as lamp irons etc. The ex-LNER one has had the roof vents added and is now ready for painting. The ex-SECR van just needs door hinges to complete the body; the roof needs a stove chimney and the end handrails tweaking, however the birdcage windows have been opened out now. Bulk of the remaining work is on the chassis which requires under frame fittings and lower step boards (4 sections each side, which will need some thought on clearing the floating centre axle), plus buffers (on order).

[ISW]

Martyn,

 

I admire your ability to cut and file small sections of plastic into totally believable windows with such fine detail. It'll be a while before I'm anything like that good.

 

[Signaller69]

7 hours ago, ISW said:

Martyn,

 

I admire your ability to cut and file small sections of plastic into totally believable windows with such fine detail. It'll be a while before I'm anything like that good.

 

Thanks for your kind words Ian, I don't mind doing a few windows but I doubt I'd have the patience to do passenger coaches by this method to be honest!

 

Cheers,

Martyn.