Signaller69's projects

[John Tomlinson]

Re. the 46, or indeed any green Peak in later years, pictures seem to show that the long bodyside stripoe did drop off or flake as time went on. Many of them appear so filthy that you couldn't tell anyway!

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

6 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Re. the 46, or indeed any green Peak in later years, pictures seem to show that the long bodyside stripoe did drop off or flake as time went on. Many of them appear so filthy that you couldn't tell anyway!

 

John.

Hi John

 

I don't have the numbers to hand but some Peaks were turned out by Derby in green with no lining, most also had a green roof, just before blue became the order of the day.

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

13 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

I don't have the numbers to hand but some Peaks were turned out by Derby in green with no lining, most also had a green roof, just before blue became the order of the day.

 

 

That's my understanding Clive. I always thought that was the "Utility green" scheme. However....

 

Some also appear to be Toton repaints, on some you can actually see the shape of the long white stripe under the green paint - a bit like doing a respray on a model without rubbing down the tampo printed bits first! There was a lot of research done on this years ago on RMweb, possibly the old one, along with the old chestnut of blue, small yellow panel.

 

Others have grey roofs, these may be the depot repaints, and often it's difficult to tell unless the work is freshly done as they seem to have got mucky quite quickly. I've been researching how to paint my D10 and found one picture when clean that shows a grey roof on the bits that were originally grey, but what looks like a very tidy all-over green respray on the rest of the body.

 

Then on 46's there's the issue of matching the two types of headcode to the colour scheme, bearing in mind that some of the split type were modified to be without the centre bar.

 

Oh Dear - my head hurts!!!!

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

22 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

That's my understanding Clive. I always thought that was the "Utility green" scheme. However....

 

Some also appear to be Toton repaints, on some you can actually see the shape of the long white stripe under the green paint - a bit like doing a respray on a model without rubbing down the tampo printed bits first! There was a lot of research done on this years ago on RMweb, possibly the old one, along with the old chestnut of blue, small yellow panel.

 

Others have grey roofs, these may be the depot repaints, and often it's difficult to tell unless the work is freshly done as they seem to have got mucky quite quickly. I've been researching how to paint my D10 and found one picture when clean that shows a grey roof on the bits that were originally grey, but what looks like a very tidy all-over green respray on the rest of the body.

 

Then on 46's there's the issue of matching the two types of headcode to the colour scheme, bearing in mind that some of the split type were modified to be without the centre bar.

 

Oh Dear - my head hurts!!!!

 

John.

Hi John

 

The Toton over paint or bad rubbing down the lining on the first ten is a strange one I must admit. No idea why they done it but it does look as you say a repaint without rubbing down the tampo print.

 

The last few Brushes were built with a single window central headcode display. The earlier ones had the two window central display. When they were refurbished by Brush the early ones were painted in green livery, despite the last Brush type fours leaving Loughborough in blue at about the same time. So if the loco had been built with a two window display it would have emerged from Brush in green with a new front end with a single window display. It would also have had the small triangular grille. The small grille is the only way of telling a late built green livery 46 if it had been refurbished. 

 

There was/is a thread on here detailing the liveries and other oddities about the Peaks.

[John Tomlinson]

21 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

The Toton over paint or bad rubbing down the lining on the first ten is a strange one I must admit. No idea why they done it but it does look as you say a repaint without rubbing down the tampo print.

 

The last few Brushes were built with a single window central headcode display. The earlier ones had the two window central display. When they were refurbished by Brush the early ones were painted in green livery, despite the last Brush type fours leaving Loughborough in blue at about the same time. So if the loco had been built with a two window display it would have emerged from Brush in green with a new front end with a single window display. It would also have had the small triangular grille. The small grille is the only way of telling a late built green livery 46 if it had been refurbished. 

 

There was/is a thread on here detailing the liveries and other oddities about the Peaks.

I think the thread or threads were lead by Russell Saxton and Geoff Endacott. Now I've discovered how to download on my computer I'll try to find them again and do so.

 

I have an as new Bachmann 46 D163 (the namer) sitting in front of me now in Economy green with a grey roof. I bought this on ebay for not a lot a while ago, and haven't done anything to it as yet. It appears to be a right mess!

 

No horizontal nose seam (easy), airbrake tanks and no water tank, 2 part headcode box, triangular bodyside grilles, unplated bodyside footholds, plated over water fillers. Nice application of the green though! Who knows if it's meant to be refurbished or not. When I can summon the strength I'll do some proper research, and will try to remove the printed nameplate to give at least some latitude on a choice of identity.

 

John.

[Signaller69]

5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

I don't have the numbers to hand but some Peaks were turned out by Derby in green with no lining, most also had a green roof, just before blue became the order of the day.

 

 

Hi Clive,

I wasn't aware of the green roof treatment; looking at photos of D165 in later green years, the lower edges of the roof were still grey; I assumed the rest was just accumulated filth!

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0326020260000

 

5 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Re. the 46, or indeed any green Peak in later years, pictures seem to show that the long bodyside stripoe did drop off or flake as time went on. Many of them appear so filthy that you couldn't tell anyway!

 

John.

Hi John,

As per the photo above, D165 seems to have suffered a minor bogie fire at the no.2 end c.1972 which obliterated the stripe in that area, but the rest looked otherwise complete!

 

As you mentioned, the Peaks are another absolute minefield regarding detail variations such as presence of bogie rear sandboxes, headcode panel types (those altered from twin-centre to single-centre seem to have retained headcode blinds with a slight gap in the centre), plated (or not) fillers and footsteps, outer air tanks present or not, livery variations etc etc.

 

If on Faceache, this group is particularly worth joining for late 60s/ early 70s fans and has provided much photographic info for my projects, particularly following requests:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/574645826326981/?ref=share

(Russ Saxton is an admin iirc) The photo section itself is a complete treasure trove.

 

Thanks gents,

Martyn.

 

Edit: my class 46 livery question in the above FB group, which has lots of useful replies on which locos were in which colour scheme is here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/574645826326981/permalink/1039917043133188/

Edited July 27, 2020 by Signaller69

[Signaller69]

2 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

I have an as new Bachmann 46 D163 (the namer) sitting in front of me now in Economy green with a grey roof. I bought this on ebay for not a lot a while ago, and haven't done anything to it as yet. It appears to be a right mess!

.....unplated bodyside footholds, plated over water fillers....

 

John.

John,

Seems strange that Bachmann provided covered water fillers on their green Peaks (as mine was). D163 had them open well into blue days.

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/TOPS-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-RsHpxS9

I've not seen any photos of green 46s with them covered as yet. 

[John Tomlinson]

Martyn,

 

I'm not on Facebook, but am getting tempted with the Gen. that sems to be posted there!

 

To illustrate the application of green on the Utility/ Economy scheme, here's a couple of pics of mine of D123 at Loughborough, obviously this is in preservation, but they made a decent effort to try to capture the style, or at least one version of it. It certainly goes above the line of the green on the original scheme around the curve onto the roof, but whether it should include the top roof panels I honestly don't know. Photos are a nightmare to analyse for that part of a loco because of the reflected light from the sky. Whilst gray is visible on the roof of the second shot, later by 18 months, the green may simply have flaked off, and as I say is in preservation anyhow.

 

If you have the Jane's "Rail Portfolio no.4", by Howard Johnson there are relevant pics. on pages 9 and 42, exactly the same problem of analysis arises about the upper roof.

 

John.

Edited July 27, 2020 by John Tomlinson

[Signaller69]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

D123 at Loughborough, obviously this is in preservation, but they made a decent effort to try to capture the style, or at least one version of it. It certainly goes above the line of the green on the original scheme around the curve onto the roof, but whether it should include the top roof panels I honestly don't know. Photos are a nightmare to analyse for that part of a loco because of the reflected light from the sky.

 

 

 

John.

Thanks John, I guess then that the only clue on a dirty loco is if the grey/green junction is clearly visible; lighting in photos often makes it difficult to be 100% sure as you say.

 

Take this 1969 photo of D125 (currently on Ebay):

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/363054904652?ul_ref=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-127635-2958-0%2F16%3Fitm%3D363054904652%26user_name%3D%26spid%3D2047675%26mpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.co.uk%252Fitm%252F-%252F363054904652%26swd%3D2%26mplxParams%3Duser_name%252Citm%252Cswd%252Cmpre%252C%26sojTags%3Ddu%253Dmpre%252Citm%253Ditm%252Cuser_name%253Duser_name%252Csuri%253Dsuri%252Cspid%253Dspid%252Cswd%253Dswd%252C%26srcrot%3D710-127635-2958-0%26rvr_id%3D2531310337805%26rvr_ts%3D9165f4641730a9cc5e619af1fff2c5a4

 

Not sure if this has a green roof, despite appearances. There appears to be a change in shade where the grey to green junction would be? Could be lighting, someone may be able to confirm.

 

At least it clearly has red bufferbeams. D165 (the one I'm doing) has zero evidence of any red anywhere on the bufferbeams by 1972 as per this Flickr photo:

Helpfully the grey to green roof transition shows up too.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Signaller69
Add photo.

[John Tomlinson]

Martyn, I'd say the ebay picture of D125 does have the original style of gray on the roof, because of the transition in shades you note. There isn't any beading or join at that point as far as I'm aware, so I don't know what else the mark could be.

 

Your D165 is clear in the picture above re. the roof colour. Amazing it lasted so long in this original scheme, which rather strengthens the case for red on the buffer beam under several impenetrable layers of gunge since it's years since the last repaint! Also it appears still to be vac. braked only, no tanks and no bufferbeam hose - the thing with the silver bits being a steam heat pipe - is this right?

 

John.

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Martyn, I'd say the ebay picture of D125 does have the original style of gray on the roof, because of the transition in shades you note. There isn't any beading or join at that point as far as I'm aware, so I don't know what else the mark could be.

 

Your D165 is clear in the picture above re. the roof colour. Amazing it lasted so long in this original scheme, which rather strengthens the case for red on the buffer beam under several impenetrable layers of gunge since it's years since the last repaint! Also it appears still to be vac. braked only, no tanks and no bufferbeam hose - the thing with the silver bits being a steam heat pipe - is this right?

 

John.

Hi John,

 

Silver is indeed steam heat, red is for a vehicle fitted with a continuous brake, both air and vacuum, white is for through piped for brakes, again both air and vacuum, and yellow is for main reservoir for air brakes. Blue is for control vacuum on DMUs, control air is also white but the pipes and fittings are much smaller than brake pipes.

 

Gibbo.

[ISW]

47 minutes ago, Signaller69 said:

*snip*

 

Not sure if this has a green roof, despite appearances. There appears to be a change in shade where the grey to green junction would be? Could be lighting, someone may be able to confirm.

 

*snip*

Helpfully the grey to green roof transition shows up too.

Martyn,

 

A close look at the roof over the cab does appear to show grey and not green. However, I've seen B/W photos in Google from the late 1960s that show D165 with a green roof. Indeed all the other photos I found seem to show a green roof.

 

The photo at https://cdn.zenfolio.net/cdn2/pub/kyb0dmef7vuu/0/null/mh/jqypcmc3kufhzkd3ieiu/s/v-10/p430847780-5.jpg?ts=7&tk=2PyL6DloGiGLz142MHEmfN0YjOMI4dkkp6FWPThWQd0=&v=2&visitor=thsDhcAQJ5MgdHTHhe1VLla49fgAAAAAAe3-XiyAJ2-m&auth=exp=1595980799~acl=%2Fcdn2%2Fpub%2Fkyb0dmef7vuu%2F*~hmac=772d3841bbaee8f34410861f73545b44 

that looks almost like the one in your post, would indicate a green roof.

 

I also found this photo on TheBay (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PHOTO-BR-CLASS-46-LOCO-NO-D165-46028-VIEW-3-/192885276830) showing one end of D165 fitted with a Class 45 nose, split headcode. Are you making that conversion also? But then again, https://www.flickr.com/photos/68861278@N03/15473596626/

 

shows that end with a Class 46 nose.

[ISW]

Martyn,

 

The chaps at the 'EM Gauge 70s' website, who also have modelled D165 have gone with a red buffer and a grey roof. See  http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/project_class44-46.html nearly at the bottom of the page.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Guys 

 

If you look at the photo with the larger yellow panel it is unrefurbished. There were a few class 46s with this yellow panel and I think it was a depot paint job (Holbeck?). The other two show her after refurbishment and would have been repainted to full specification by Brush who carried out the work. Black buffer beam on the later photos could well be a bogie swap after repaired bogies had stopped having their fronts painted red.  

[Signaller69]

58 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Your D165 is clear in the picture above re. the roof colour. Amazing it lasted so long in this original scheme, which rather strengthens the case for red on the buffer beam under several impenetrable layers of gunge since it's years since the last repaint! Also it appears still to be vac. braked only, no tanks and no bufferbeam hose - the thing with the silver bits being a steam heat pipe - is this right?

 

John.

John,

I agree the bufferbeam would almost certainly be red under the dirt. From a modelling point though, no red paint required! Unfortunately for me that photo also confirms the bodyside steps were plated over by 1972, it being not so obvious in other photos. In an ideal world I could do with a 1970 photo to see if they had been plated by that time, or if they were done later.

Yes, silver metalwork on the steam heat pipe as Gibbo says. It amazes me how close to rail level they hang when not stowed correctly.

39 minutes ago, ISW said:

Martyn,

 

A close look at the roof over the cab does appear to show grey and not green. However, I've seen B/W photos in Google from the late 1960s that show D165 with a green roof. Indeed all the other photos I found seem to show a green roof.

 

The photo at https://cdn.zenfolio.net/cdn2/pub/kyb0dmef7vuu/0/null/mh/jqypcmc3kufhzkd3ieiu/s/v-10/p430847780-5.jpg?ts=7&tk=2PyL6DloGiGLz142MHEmfN0YjOMI4dkkp6FWPThWQd0=&v=2&visitor=thsDhcAQJ5MgdHTHhe1VLla49fgAAAAAAe3-XiyAJ2-m&auth=exp=1595980799~acl=%2Fcdn2%2Fpub%2Fkyb0dmef7vuu%2F*~hmac=772d3841bbaee8f34410861f73545b44 

that looks almost like the one in your post, would indicate a green roof.

 

I also found this photo on TheBay (https://www.ebay.ie/itm/PHOTO-BR-CLASS-46-LOCO-NO-D165-46028-VIEW-3-/192885276830) showing one end of D165 fitted with a Class 45 nose, split headcode. Are you making that conversion also? But then again, https://www.flickr.com/photos/68861278@N03/15473596626/

 

shows that end with a Class 46 nose.

Ian,

The 3 or 4 colour photos of D165 c.1971/72 I have been using all suggest the roof colour to be grey along the junction with the green, so I will stick with that - although the rest of the roof is invariably thick with grime in any case. The photos you linked suggest D165 was one of the locos which was converted from twin headcode boxes to single at some point in the 60s.

 

Thanks,

Martyn.

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Guys 

 

If you look at the photo with the larger yellow panel it is unrefurbished. There were a few class 46s with this yellow panel and I think it was a depot paint job (Holbeck?). The other two show her after refurbishment and would have been repainted to full specification by Brush who carried out the work. Black buffer beam on the later photos could well be a bogie swap after repaired bogies had stopped having their fronts painted red.  

Yes. and that is consistent with it being surrounded by Maroon coaching stock, suggesting perhaps 1968 at the latest.

 

The Newton Abbot shot with the Warship is almost certainly later, and whilst it's possible the buffer beam is black, we can't really tell as it's side on and in shadow.

 

John.

[Signaller69]

With all this talking of colour schemes, D165 now has Lanarkshire buffers fitted to its WHITE bufferbeams.

I took the executive decision to plate the bodyside steps too, which have just been touched in, as has the damage to the off white stripe.

 

The 25 has had the rather undefined tail lights filled and drilled out slightly larger, about 1mm higher than the original position. Lower lamp brackets were added too, along with the previously mentioned cab door lower kick plates over the clip fit recesses.

 

Aiming to visit the car shop for paint tomorrow, and then move on to the chassis plastic surgery on both locos.

[Signaller69]

Painting underway on the 25. I used Holts Auto spray HDGR02 for the green, which is a close match to Heljans BR Green seen on the 27. Roof still in the primer grey, but am going to try a slightly darker shade once the body colour has hardened completely.

[jessy1692]

4 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Painting underway on the 25. I used Holts Auto spray HDGR02 for the green, which is a close match to Heljans BR Green seen on the 27. Roof still in the primer grey, but am going to try a slightly darker shade once the body colour has hardened completely.

Nice choice with the green, duly noted, i like Holts paints. My local place will actually mix paint for you on site in rattle cans but they have to have the RAL code for a colour to mix they say. Seems to be a few very close to blue and green and grey so will be trialling some soon.

Top work

James

[Signaller69]

1 hour ago, jessy1692 said:

Nice choice with the green, duly noted, i like Holts paints. My local place will actually mix paint for you on site in rattle cans but they have to have the RAL code for a colour to mix they say. Seems to be a few very close to blue and green and grey so will be trialling some soon.

Top work

James

Hi James, 

Thanks, I was pleased with the colour I have to say. Holts do fractionally lighter and darker shades too. The green of the older Bachmann Peak I am working on has slightly more brown in it giving a  slightly different shade, but then the real locos were not all the same shade so it doesn't bother me unduly. Conversely, I have now sprayed the 25 roof with Holts HGREY03, which is a perfect match for the roof on the Peak, but the grey roof of the 27 has slightly more brown in it by comparison!

My local Holts supplier also mix paint, I should perhaps look up the RAL code for BR blue, Warning Panel Yellow and BR Green for starters!

 

Martyn.

[leopardml2341]

Beware though, the real colour (in RAL terms) rarely looks 'right' on a model - not enough area to 'fool the eyes'.

 

Years ago, I painted a Diecast model bus in the then SYPTE 'tea and cream' livery  with paint obtained directly from the paint shop at the local bus garage; just didn't look right to me.

[Gibbo675]

18 minutes ago, Signaller69 said:

Hi James, 

Thanks, I was pleased with the colour I have to say. Holts do fractionally lighter and darker shades too. The green of the older Bachmann Peak I am working on has slightly more brown in it giving a  slightly different shade, but then the real locos were not all the same shade so it doesn't bother me unduly. Conversely, I have now sprayed the 25 roof with Holts HGREY03, which is a perfect match for the roof on the Peak, but the grey roof of the 27 has slightly more brown in it by comparison!

My local Holts supplier also mix paint, I should perhaps look up the RAL code for BR blue, Warning Panel Yellow and BR Green for starters!

 

Martyn.

Hi Martyn,

 

Here you go:

 

Rail Blue:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 114&metallic2=False&cDescription=Rail blue

 

Rail Grey:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=RAL Classic&cRef=RAL 9002&metallic2=False&cDescription=Grey white

 

Various BR colours:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/uk_organisations.asp?cOrg=BR

 

Gibbo.

 

[jessy1692]

33 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Martyn,

 

Here you go:

 

Rail Blue:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 114&metallic2=False&cDescription=Rail blue

 

Rail Grey:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=RAL Classic&cRef=RAL 9002&metallic2=False&cDescription=Grey white

 

Various BR colours:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/uk_organisations.asp?cOrg=BR

 

Gibbo.

 

Nice one Gibbo!

James

[jessy1692]

59 minutes ago, Signaller69 said:

Hi James, 

Thanks, I was pleased with the colour I have to say. Holts do fractionally lighter and darker shades too. The green of the older Bachmann Peak I am working on has slightly more brown in it giving a  slightly different shade, but then the real locos were not all the same shade so it doesn't bother me unduly. Conversely, I have now sprayed the 25 roof with Holts HGREY03, which is a perfect match for the roof on the Peak, but the grey roof of the 27 has slightly more brown in it by comparison!

My local Holts supplier also mix paint, I should perhaps look up the RAL code for BR blue, Warning Panel Yellow and BR Green for starters!

 

Martyn.

I think its going to be a little trial and error as Leopard ml says, it may be right but it looks wrong, my local auto discount does testers for them so will be choosing a few different blues before picking the best for a full can. Im not on loco building at the mo, just got back to the normal bench and layout so playing trains for a bit. Keep us posted on your findings, likewise i will when i get around to getting some mixed.

Cheers

James

[Signaller69]

2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Martyn,

 

Here you go:

 

Rail Blue:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 114&metallic2=False&cDescription=Rail blue

 

Rail Grey:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=RAL Classic&cRef=RAL 9002&metallic2=False&cDescription=Grey white

 

Various BR colours:

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/uk_organisations.asp?cOrg=BR

 

Gibbo.

 

Thanks Gibbo, most useful!

Martyn.