More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Great Western numerology. Photo at Bishopsgate c. 1924 yields another number, 35415, for the pre-iron mink outside framed covered goods wagons of os Lots 225, 239, 339, 358 (and possibly others). This doesn't fit with either the 22xxx or 37xxx blocks tentatively identified (on the basis of two numbers each). In fact this number comes between some 3-plank opens - os Lot 289 - and some AA3 brake vans, os Lot 432.

[Compound2632]

I’m unable to stick for too long at a consistent line of modelling and am easily distracted. So, wandering off from sheeted wagons, I’ve been thinking about the discussion a while back of the Slater’s kits for Midland Railway 16’6” covered goods wagons and fruit vans:

 

 

Kit 4024 represents the standard covered goods wagon to D362 (8 tons) and D363 (10 tons). The 8 ton wagons were first built to drawing 981 in 1893-4 (276 vehicles); there was then a change in the drawgear, an new drawing 1032 being issued. A further 2,796 vehicles were built down to 1902. In that year another drawing was issued, 1642 – this might mark the start of oil axleboxes in place of Ellis 10A  grease axleboxes. At first 10 ton wagons were built, with 1,750 constructed to 1906. There was then a switch back to 8 ton capacity, with 475 built 1907-1910. The final construction in 1913-16 saw 1,100 10 ton wagons built. The kit has oil axleboxes, and hence represents the 3,325 wagons built to drawing 1642. It would be straightforward to replace these with grease axleboxes, to model the 3,070 8 ton wagons to drawings 981 and 1032. At 31 December 1894, the Midland had just 1,746 covered goods wagons, 1.6% of the total wagon stock. Of these, 1,500 were the earlier 14’11” type, chiefly to D353, the balance being the drawing 981 D362 wagons. The enormous programme of building 16’6” vehicles at the beginning of the 20th century – Lot 543 of 1902 encompassed some 2,450 wagons – along with the building of 2,967 14’11” wagons in 1903-5, increased the proportion of covered goods wagons to around 9% by 1907.

 

At the other end of the quantity scale, Kit 4024F represents the 5 ton covered goods wagons with louvres and roof ventilators to D361, of which just 50 were built as part of Lot 563 of 1903. These vehicles were fitted with the automatic vacuum brake and had 3’7” diameter wheels, making them suitable for running in passenger trains.

 

As is my usual method, I start by fitting brass bearings and then attaching the solebars to the floor, making sure that the axles are square and true and that all runs truly with no wobble:

 

 

Unfitted underframe with 3’1” wheels on the left, fitted underframe with 3’7” wheels on the right. Although it’s not very noticeable in this photo, the moulded lugs on the sides of the axleboxes have been trimmed back in the same way as I do for the 10A axleboxes.

 

Now it’s one song to the tune of another:

 

 

The body of kit 4024F on the underframe from kit 4024 gives the 10 ton covered goods wagon and fruit van to D364. 450 of these were built as part of Lot 543 of 1902 – 350 of which were fitted with the automatic vacuum brake while 100 had through pipes only. A further 16 were built as Lot 723 of 1909. I think that with the single-sided push-rod brakes this model represents a piped vehicle; at this date a fitted vehicle would have clap brakes, as does my second variation: the body of kit 4024 on the underframe from kit 4024F. This gives the D360 wagon, rated to carry 5 tons in passenger trains and 6 tons in goods trains. The first 50 of these were built in 1899, with a further 300 in 1903-4. These vehicles were all fitted with the automatic vacuum brake. As built, the hand brake lever was on the opposite side of the vehicle to the brake cylinder, as I’ve built it. At some point, probably in LMS days, a Morton cam and brake lever was fitted on this side.

 

A refinement to the roofs is to add rainstrips:

 

 

These are 20 thou x 10 thou Microstrip, fixed on edge. These were a lot easier to do than I had feared. Holding a good length of Microstrip in the right orientation, a dab of MekPak was used to fix one end in place – a quick tweak with the tweezers is enough to adjust the orientation. The Microstrip is then held in place at the other end, taking up a natural curve. a dab of solvent fixes this second end, then a very little more solvent is allowed to run along the length of the rainstrip. Once the joint has hardened, the excess length is cut off and as a finishing touch, the ends are trimmed at 45 degrees. The D360, in common with most of these covered goods wagons to both 16’6”and 14’11” designs, has rainstrips over the door. I’ve given the ventilated D364 rainstrips that run the whole length of the roof, based on a photo of a D361 wagon [Plate 200 in R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1980), from which all the above prototype information is abstracted]. This is getting dangerously close to carriage building…

 

I wasn’t happy with the lower rainstrip on the D364 – a bit lopsided – so re-made it before fitting the roofs. Also, before the roof went on, 40 g of lead flashing was superglued into each wagon, giving total masses 0f 52 g for the D364 and 56 g for the D360 (of course a fitted wagon should be a bit heavier):

 

 

There’s only one set of vacuum pipes between the two kits, so I’m waiting to investigate various alternatives before fitting them to both.

 

According to the diagram book, none of these vehicles were dual fitted (or piped), so they couldn’t work through to Westinghouse lines. In contrast, an unknown number of the standard D362 and D363 wagons were dual piped.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Great Western numerology. Photo at Bishopsgate c. 1924 yields another number, 35415, for the pre-iron mink outside framed covered goods wagons of os Lots 225, 239, 339, 358 (and possibly others). This doesn't fit with either the 22xxx or 37xxx blocks tentatively identified (on the basis of two numbers each). In fact this number comes between some 3-plank opens - os Lot 289 - and some AA3 brake vans, os Lot 432.

 

Interesting photo, thanks for posting it Stephen. I note the MR-liveried wagon next to 35415 - not strange of course at that date. There seems to be another O/F GWR Mink in the background without end-numerals.

 

 

 This is getting dangerously close to carriage building…

 

Yes please!

Edited May 6, 2018 by Mikkel

[Penlan]

Re. Photo at Bishopsgate c. 1924 
I rather like the van and wagon with casks, bottom LH side.

[Coal Tank]

Re. Photo at Bishopsgate c. 1924 

I rather like the van and wagon with casks, bottom LH side.

great photo

[Rail-Online]

Re. Photo at Bishopsgate c. 1924 

I rather like the van and wagon with casks, bottom LH side.

Yes a very nice photo. The cask wagon is partially unloaded so is really only a 'yard scene wagon'. It may have been sheeted when on the road to put off pilferers. But it is no less than SIX wagons with roof doors in 1924 that interests me . Three NER, one ancient LNWR two L&Y (one a very old small van) and one a much modern one.

 

Tony

[Buhar]

For a date so soon after the grouping, I can't see any wagons with pre-1923 ownership markings.

[Andy Hayter]

Third track from the left the wagon going off screen has marking starting M (MR).

Second track from the left GE open the other side  of the first  van and the furthest open wagon has a two letter designation (not NE or SR but I cannot make it out)

 

The GW wagons could (stress could) be pre-grouping markings.

 

 

However I do agree with the sentiment that there are a lot of NE, and LMS branded wagons for such an early (supposed) date. 

[Compound2632]

For a date so soon after the grouping, I can't see any wagons with pre-1923 ownership markings.

 

There's an open on the right with the M of MR. Is that a NB 3-plank open in the middle distance? The date given for the photo may be wrong. Certainly the LMS opens look well-worn but it's possible they didn't get a full repaint, just re-lettering. There's a GW open with sheet rail still with pre-1920 25" lettering. The wood mink in question has evidently been freshly painted.

 

Is it possible that the four similar vans in a row in the distance are the rather similar GER design?

 

Andy beat me to it.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Yes a very nice photo. The cask wagon is partially unloaded so is really only a 'yard scene wagon'. It may have been sheeted when on the road to put off pilferers. But it is no less than SIX wagons with roof doors in 1924 that interests me . Three NER, one ancient LNWR two L&Y (one a very old small van) and one a much modern one.

 

Tony

 

Good point. As modellers, we usually want our loaded wagons to appear as they would in trains out on the line but the majority of photographs showing loaded wagons are goods yard scenes, with wagons unsheeted ready for unloading etc. That's why I like the Aldridge and Gurnos photos discussed earlier - they're wagons being shunted or in a lie-by siding, not a goods yard.

 

The L&Y was building vans with roof doors right up to the grouping.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

Another D229, I'm assuming soon after 1900 as there's some dumb buffered wagons in the background.
Note how bright the 'M R' is     Oh, sorry about the large loco blocking the view - LNWR rules - OK   
Copied from the LNWR Society FB page - Photograph LNWRS reference Jsy 0321.

 

 

[airnimal]

I love the wagons in the background of the photograph of a chopper tank taken at Buxton. Do you have any more information about these. Do you have any ideas about colour or builders ?

[Mikkel]

Another D229, I'm assuming soon after 1900 as there's some dumb buffered wagons in the background.

Note how bright the 'M R' is     Oh, sorry about the large loco blocking the view - LNWR rules - OK   

Copied from the LNWR Society FB page - Photograph LNWRS reference Jsy 0321.

 

D229 #2.jpg

 

Moore & Brock - Northwich - Dumb Buffers.jpg

 

I know this is a wagon thread but that is one lovely loco!

[Compound2632]

Those Moore & Brock wagons - that pentangle is the occult mark of a wagon on hire from the Birmingham Wagon Co. - note also their oval builder's plate at the RH end.

 

The Midland used an oxalic paint for the lettering that was resistant to discoloration and weathering.

 

As for the 4ft 6in 2-4-0 tank, it's a common problem with photos of this era that there's some engine parked in the middle of the picture blocking out all the interesting detail...

[martin_m]

Yes a very nice photo. The cask wagon is partially unloaded so is really only a 'yard scene wagon'. It may have been sheeted when on the road to put off pilferers. But it is no less than SIX wagons with roof doors in 1924 that interests me . Three NER, one ancient LNWR two L&Y (one a very old small van) and one a much modern one. 

Tony

I'm not sure that any barrels have been unloaded, there doesn't seem room for any more.

Can anyone identify the wagon behind mink 35415, it seems to have high sides, cupboard doors and a sheet rail?

martin

[Anotheran]

Can anyone identify the wagon behind mink 35415, it seems to have high sides, cupboard doors and a sheet rail?

martin

I'm pretty sure it's a GW 7 plank. Diagram O2 if unfitted, O10 if fitted. Both diagrams date from the same time so without seeing the brakes I can't go for one or the other.

 

Kind regards Neil

[wagonman]

There's an open on the right with the M of MR. Is that a NB 3-plank open in the middle distance? The date given for the photo may be wrong. Certainly the LMS opens look well-worn but it's possible they didn't get a full repaint, just re-lettering. There's a GW open with sheet rail still with pre-1920 25" lettering. The wood mink in question has evidently been freshly painted.

 

Is it possible that the four similar vans in a row in the distance are the rather similar GER design?

 

Andy beat me to it.

 

 

Several wagons still in GER livery, not surprisingly, and a couple of the NER vans are in pre-group condition too – the NE was more 'squashed down' (sorry to use technical terms!).

[Penlan]

As for the 4ft 6in 2-4-0 tank, it's a common problem with photos of this era that there's some engine parked in the middle of the picture blocking out all the interesting detail...

I agree with you...

On the LNWR Soc FB pages nearly all the photo's are of loco's, as indeed are most pre-grouping photographs.

I try to pick out the background, infrastructure, rolling stock etc., for comment.

I'm not alone, but we are a very small group that comment on other than the Loco's... :-) 

[Penlan]

Those Moore & Brock wagons - that pentangle is the occult mark of a wagon on hire from the Birmingham Wagon Co. 

- note also their oval builder's plate at the RH end.

Many thanks re. the 'Occult' logo, always nice to be reminded of these things, my memory had lapsed on this detail.

I have a few pictures of Birmingham Wagon Co., wagons - contact prints from Roger Carpenter many years ago, but where are they in my pile of shoe boxes? (sorry, filing system).

[Penlan]

I know this is a wagon thread but that is one lovely loco!

It is the way of a topic on RMwebb ( )

It would be a sad day if it stayed rigidly on topic all the way..... 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Penlan

[Worsdell forever]

Several wagons still in GER livery, not surprisingly, and a couple of the NER vans are in pre-group condition too – the NE was more 'squashed down' (sorry to use technical terms!).

 

12" square and the LNER version was 12" x 18", although the NER used a taller NE on some wagons some time back in the depths of the 19th century. 

[PenrithBeacon]

Many thanks re. the 'Occult' logo, always nice to be reminded of these things, my memory had lapsed on this detail.

...

I'm intrigued by the use of the word 'occult' for what is a logo. I thought the word was reserved for dark superstitious practices.

[Buhar]

I'm intrigued by the use of the word 'occult' for what is a logo. I thought the word was reserved for dark superstitious practices.

 

An additional meaning is the knowledge of hidden or secret things, things to be known by a special group.  Maybe in this case shunters and yard foremen who have to know mysterious, waggony lore.  The common usage is derived from this.  Penlan will know which meaning he was using, but maybe that is occult too!

[Compound2632]

I have been busy on several wagon modelling projects, none of which has yet reached a reportable stage, but here are a couple of teasers:

 

 

 

I've also been trying to work out if I can scrape together enough letters and particularly ampersands from my existing stock of transfers to have 6" high lettering reading

 

H B & W R J R & D C^o

 

on both sides of a 10 ton van (51L whitemetal).

 

I really ought also to re-letter my Slater hoppers NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY fairly soon - thanks to Paul Gallon I now have the transfers.

 

Also paused but not forgotten: various Midland brake vans...

 

... to say nothing of sheets and loads.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Spitfire2865]

We do seem to work on similar wagons together. Im currently building a pair of LNW D12s in G3 from kits. I think youll have a much harder time with the chains than I will.