More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

I agree - it did sound a bit odd. My guess is that whoever at Halfords responded to Phil Parker's father's phone enquiry was in fobbing off mode.

[Compound2632]

A really gloomy bit of the Lancashire & Yorkshire caught on film here, after 1910 I think, as there's a big Hughes 0-8-0 near the end. At around 2:33 - 2:44 there are a couple of Midland 5-plank opens; not sure but I think there's a hint of vertical ironwork through the M and R which would make them the later D302 design (first built 1913) rather than D299. 

 

Also of great interest, the train at the end - hauled by the big 0-8-0 and banked by a small-boilered 0-8-0 - has a great variety of open wagons of all shapes and size, all but a couple sheeted. 

[John-Miles]

I would guess the film is somewhere in South Lancashire. The tall mills are for spinning which was largely concentrated in the south. Looms are heavy and so weaving sheds were all single story with north light roofs. Interesting to see the large number of horse drawn lurries (my parents were from Lancashire and always called them lurries). IIRC the Midland had 3000 locomotives in 1923 and 6000 horses. That's a lot of dung to get rid of.

[Spitfire2865]

29 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

 IIRC the Midland had 3000 locomotives in 1923 and 6000 horses. That's a lot of dung to get rid of.

Probably why they built dedicated manure wagons.  

Mustve not been too fun unloading them as they had no doors!.

[Mikkel]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A really gloomy bit of the Lancashire & Yorkshire caught on film here, after 1910 I think, as there's a big Hughes 0-8-0 near the end. At around 2:33 - 2:44 there are a couple of Midland 5-plank opens; not sure but I think there's a hint of vertical ironwork through the M and R which would make them the later D302 design (first built 1913) rather than D299. 

 

Also of great interest, the train at the end - hauled by the big 0-8-0 and banked by a small-boilered 0-8-0 - has a great variety of open wagons of all shapes and size, all but a couple sheeted. 

 

Thanks for sharing that, Stephen, quite rare to see anyone bother with goods wagons and -haulage during that era. In fact I can't remember when I last saw an Edwardian goods trains caught on film.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Mikkel

[Penlan]

John-Miles said:

IIRC the Midland had 3000 locomotives in 1923 and 6000 horses. That's a lot of dung to get rid of.

Perhaps that's why the Midland had a dark Rose livery

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

John-Miles said:

IIRC the Midland had 3000 locomotives in 1923 and 6000 horses. That's a lot of dung to get rid of.

Perhaps that's why the Midland had a dark Rose livery

 

The Midland's iron horse to old nag ratio was typical.

[Compound2632]

A line-up of Midland horses at Derby London Road stables, 16 August 1905:

 

 

DY 2732, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

On the left we see a pair of elderly Kirtley-era horses; the rest appear to be standard Johnson goods horses. At this date, Deeley's horse renewal programme had not yet got underway - this led to the square-shouldered horse so typical of the LMS and BR period. I have seen it claimed that there was a power classification system for horses...

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Northroader]

And, of course, in those far off days, the jockeys weren’t required to wear crash helmets, just flat ‘ats, so if you fell at a fence it could have serious consequences, not to mention the trick of getting your whip caught in someone’s braces.

[Compound2632]

These horses spent their time plodding round the Derby area with lurries, drays, parcel vans and the like, delivering and collecting goods, not racing hell for leather against the Great Central! This is as express as it got (10 August 1909):

 

 

DY 9124, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Northroader]

And the hotel in the background is still there, even if the gallops aren’t, —- you sure that lot weren’t going to Southwell?

Edited April 12, 2019 by Northroader

[cliff park]

They are definitely cart horses, not horses for riding, and they are not jockeys. Look at the height of them, they are drivers of carts.

[Compound2632]

On 13/04/2019 at 11:36, cliff park said:

They are definitely cart horses, not horses for riding, and they are not jockeys. Look at the height of them, they are drivers of carts.

 

Neither, if the listing for this photo is correct. They're stablemen:

 

 

D 2735, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Taken on the same day as DY 2732.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Northroader]

Posing with their trainers...

[Compound2632]

Enough of this horsing around. I’ve been doing far to much pontificating on other peoples’ threads – a sure sign I haven’t been doing enough modelling of my own. Over the last few days I have, finally, settled down to doing several different things, the most reportable of which has been, making a start on the Mousa Models (Bill Bedford) etched brass wagons:

 

 

These have an ingenious fold-up design, with the sides, floor, and axleguards a single piece. Rather than solder up the main components and then add the detail, it seemed easier to add the door hinges while the sides were still flat. I thought this would be trickier than it was – the etched locations for the ironwork overlays provide for positive location. The locations for the corner plates on the 5-plank wagon show how this has been achieved.

 

To build up to scale thickness sides, there’s a fold-up inside layer, with strips about 3 mm wide to solder on round the top – giving three layers of brass. I’ve fitted this to the 3-plank wagon.

 

Unfortunately the bit of my Antex 25 W iron became too black and corroded to do any more – replacements have been ordered. I do find this a problem with soldering brass; I’m using 145 °C solder. I use a softwood block as support for the piece being soldered; this chars at the temperature of the iron, so I’m wondering if that’s the source of the build-up of a blackened cold spot on the bit; alternatively, am I u sing the wrong flux? It’s 9 % phosphoric acid, whereas for whitemetal (and at lower temperature) I’m using Carr’s Red Label flux. I don’t have this problem  with the Antex 50 W temperature-controlled iron I use for whitemetal; also it isn’t hot enough to char the wood.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[micklner]

Buy a Soldering Block , there are loads for sale on eBay. You are boiling the resin out of the wood which then burns etc . Guess how I know !!. Never had a problem since buying one.

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, micklner said:

Buy a Soldering Block 

 

Done!

[31A]

12 hours ago, micklner said:

Buy a Soldering Block , there are loads for sale on eBay. You are boiling the resin out of the wood which then burns etc . Guess how I know !!. Never had a problem since buying one.

 

Hi Mick, is this the kind of thing you have in mind?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cooksongold-Jewellers-Extra-Soldering-1000ºC/dp/B072JZ6M89/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=50726568462&hvadid=259049609436&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9046293&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12103595609755240359&hvtargid=aud-613328383199%3Akwd-305319053972&keywords=soldering+block&qid=1555235172&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

They seem to come with various descriptions of the material they're made from.

[Compound2632]

The one 31A has picked out is in fact the one I've ordered. Not yet shipped, so still time to tell me it's the wrong sort!

[billbedford]

It would be really handy if you were looking to do some silver soldering. Otherwise, a lump of hardwood or even hardboard would do.

[micklner]

5 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Hi Mick, is this the kind of thing you have in mind?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cooksongold-Jewellers-Extra-Soldering-1000ºC/dp/B072JZ6M89/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=50726568462&hvadid=259049609436&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9046293&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12103595609755240359&hvtargid=aud-613328383199%3Akwd-305319053972&keywords=soldering+block&qid=1555235172&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

They seem to come with various descriptions of the material they're made from.

This is what I use , no problems since.

 

Search on eBay for  Jewellers board for soldering , It looks similar to asbestos but it is not made of that lethal material. 

 

Any wood, if heated will still give off nasty fumes, as well as  resin melting in the wood  as well. For the sake of a couple of quid your health is worth it !! 

Edited April 14, 2019 by micklner

[31A]

Thank you, Mick.  I shall see about getting one, as I have had the same problems as Stephen described above.  I have sometimes used a piece of thick paxolin instead of wood, but that also chars and gives off a more noxious smell!

 

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The one 31A has picked out is in fact the one I've ordered. Not yet shipped, so still time to tell me it's the wrong sort!

Nothing wrong with it,  other than expensive and looks rather thick in depth.

[Compound2632]

It might be more expensive than absolutely necessary but that's to be weighed in the balance against the convenience and nearly instant gratification of online ordering!

 

I've found the 18 mm thickness of my block of wood handy when soldering to a part that's already partly bent up, so I'm happy to keep that feature.

 

I've not been idle, just using the 50 W temperature controlled iron with the low melt solder instead, making a start on the 5&9 Models (ex-Woodham Wagon Works) Brighton Open A kit:

 

 

How does it happen that, having got the first three corners soldered up nice and square without any difficulty, the final corner is a pig? This photo isn't very flattering to the castings, which are in fact quite clean and crisp once the flash is removed - some grot from the fibreglass brush has got caught in the planking grooves; another round with the Cif and retired toothbrush is called for. The photo also shows that the body has come out more twisted than I thought - I've now done a bit of gentle twisting that has sorted that out.

 

The kit comes with ordinary buffers and self-contained ones; I've gone for the ordinary ones as I've a hunch the self-contained ones may be useful elsewhere - so Brighton experts tell me now before it's too late if that is wrong for c. 1902!

 

I've also soldered the axleboxes and springs to the axleguards in the flat - quite fiddly as they're separate components. I did have to switch to the higher temperature iron to solder the bearings into the axleguards and at the same time tin the front face of the axleguards. The low-melt solder I've got (Carr's 100 °C) doesn't take to brass. Then back to the lower temperature to fix the whitemetal parts in place. At the same time, I've fitted the Billinton axleboxes to the cattle wagon's axleguards. The long springs for this will be glued to the plastic solebars. 

 

I've yet to work out how to fix the Open A's whitemetal solebars in place. The instructions suggest a brass or plasticard floor (not supplied). I'm tempted to try soldering up the axleguards and solebas as a sub-unit, though there's a high risk of it not coming out square...

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Paul Cram]

I use 145 solder to solder the whitemetal axleboxes to the W irons. Not had a problem.