More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

Just wondering if this is a D299 

 

I believe it is - no additional vertical ironwork that would mark it out as one of the later longer wagons to D302 or D663A. Ellis 10 A axleboxes, single-sided brakes (on the far side). Do you have a print on which the number is legible? I think I have seen another photo of one in passenger use - officials making a trip along a stretch of works-in-progress. 

 

The wagon on the left, on the line behind, is ex-LNWR, I think one of the 18 ft 4-plank opens to D84.

 

 

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid that's not conclusive evidence, as that is the location of another of the row of nuts and rods that secure the curb rail to the solebar. According to the Derby drawing, the curb rail is a substantial piece of timber - oak usually - 4.5" tall by 4" wide, rebated to rest on the top corner of the solebar. A row of seven iron rods, threaded on the ends, pass through the curb rails and solebars from one side of the wagon to the other and are secured by nuts on either end. This extract from a copy of drawing 550 in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre should make the arrangement clear:

 

 

The curb rail serves several functions. It holds the floorboards in place. The door hinges are attached to it. It provides a support for the side-planks (sheeting), although they are primarily held in place by the side knees - very substantial L-shaped pieces of iron, the profile of which can be seen dotted at floor plank level. 

 

I suspect that the Highbridge-style door stop is bolted to the solebar, not the curb rail.

 

Another Highbridge variation is the long brake lever - perhaps more leverage was thought an advantage in braking trains over the Mendips. Then there's the sheet rail too...

 

No. 141 has the 8A grease axleboxes used on new construction up to the early 1890s, when the Ellis 10A grease axlebox came into use. The Slaters kit has the 10A axleboxes; both types can be found on S&DJR wagons.

 

 

Hi Stephen,

 

many thanks for the additional info - all is now clear, and as you say, the lack of scallopping on S&D No.141's curb rail at the door stop block is down to the tie rods - Highbridge probably just made use of the flat area to mount the stop block against - there seems to be a bolt head on the stop block where it presumably bolts to the solebar.

 

With regard to axleboxes, No.141 has the 8A version, while a quick look at "Highbridge in its Heyday" shows that No.174 (plain 5-plank open - i.e. no sheet rail) also has them, but No.210 (round ends and wooden sheet bar) appears to have type 10A. EDIT - just noticed you'd already mentioned this!

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

EDIT

Russ Garner's "The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Stock Registers, 1836 - 1930" is still available new from the S&DRT website at £2.50 + p&p. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[Worsdell forever]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I believe it is - no additional vertical ironwork that would mark it out as one of the later longer wagons to D302 or D663A. Ellis 10 A axleboxes, single-sided brakes (on the far side). Do you have a print on which the number is legible? I think I have seen another photo of one in passenger use - officials making a trip along a stretch of works-in-progress. 

 

That's all I have, the museum at Hutton-le-Hole will have the originals, problem there is the photo curator is only there ion certain weekdays which makes seeing them rather difficult.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The wagon on the left, on the line behind, is ex-LNWR, I think one of the 18 ft 4-plank opens to D84.

 

Thought it was something like that.

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Thinking of interiors, if scribing the Slaters D299 floor, there are a couple of points to bear in mind: the planking doesn't go right to the edge - allow about 0.5 mm for the width of the curb rail - and also the wagon has bottom doors with longitudinal planking - check out the drawing I linked to for full details. I'm not sure if Highbridge wagons had the bottom doors - I can't see any sign of the release lever but it's pretty hard to spot on Midland wagons. That photo of No. 141 has had the relevant area whited out by the photographer. At first I thought they'd been over-zealous and taken out the brake pushrod safety loops but they're also missing from a photo of No. 174 - also has 8A axleboxes - but No. 210 has them - 10A axleboxes. Not sure if there's a correlation there. [C.G. Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday (Oakwood Press, 1986) Plates 70-72.]

 

 

The S&D wagons had no bottom doors.

 

However, the floor planks and insides of the side and end planks were not chamfered, so scribing these parts is definitely a 'modelism'. Ideally, they should be lightly marked in pencil after painting, but good luck with that.

[57xx]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Don't get too carried away though. They forgot to scribe the floor planks on this 3-plank dropside:

 

 

NRM DY 11331, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

You mean like the one at the right hand end of middle barrel? The rest of the floor is covered in thick dirt and is not a smooth surface.

[Guy Rixon]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

However, the floor planks and insides of the side and end planks were not chamfered, so scribing these parts is definitely a 'modelism'. Ideally, they should be lightly marked in pencil after painting, but good luck with that.

The ideal for inter-plank grooves would be the thinnest groove that gives a visibly distinct mark when a thin, black wash is run into it. Any idea what size that would be?

[2996 Victor]

Apologies for throwing this question in randomly, but does anyone know if kits are available for the D301 high sided wagon and D306/7 sleeper wagon?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark

[billbedford]

33 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Apologies for throwing this question in randomly, but does anyone know if kits are available for the D301 high sided wagon and D306/7 sleeper wagon?

 

 

The D.301 can be found here, the D. 306 or 307, well maybe if there is an interest.

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Apologies for throwing this question in randomly, but does anyone know if kits are available for the D301 high sided wagon and D306/7 sleeper wagon?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark

 

In 4 mm/ft scale, there was once, many moons ago and before my time, a Colin Ashby kit for the sleeper wagon - I think D307 with the half-drop-sides. In 7 mm/ft scale, Slaters have a kit, also for D307. I believe this uses the same underframe as the cattle wagon - at least the dimensions are the same - so that could be a starting point for a 4 mm/ft scale version.

 

Mousa Models have a printed resin kit for D301 in 4 mm/ft scale and Furness in 7 mm/ft. @billbedford has replied as I type, so I expect he's mentioning the Mousa kit...

 

... I have to confess I hadn't been aware this was now available, when I looked on the Mousa website I was expecting to see it still in the "to do" list! The Mousa 7 mm/ft version is listed as "work needed", I see.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Compound2632
Response to Bill's post

[billbedford]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Mousa Models have a printed resin kit for D301 in 4 mm/ft scale and Furness in 7 mm/ft. @billbedford has replied as I type, so I expect he's mentioning the Mousa kit...

 

Whoever wrote that web page is an idiot. the MR kits BWK1700-5 are etched brass.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Whoever wrote that web page is an idiot. the MR kits BWK1700-5 are etched brass.

 

Ah! That explains my surprise. I've been keeping an eye out for progress on the printed resin wagons but hadn't paid much attention to the older etched kits. But having tried the two GC kits, I may yet be tempted... Possibly by the D351 end-door wagon first, as with 9,000 built it was the third most numerous Midland wagon type and I don't have any. The alternative is a 51L whitemetal kit, although I have also pondered what might be possible by bashing various Slaters kits together.

[Paul Cram]

I have just completed a diagram 352 kit and it went together very nicely.

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

I have just completed a diagram 352 kit and it went together very nicely.

 

Do you mean D351 - five plank end-door? If so, which kit? Bill's or 51L? Please feel free to post a short review!

[2996 Victor]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

The D.301 can be found here, the D. 306 or 307, well maybe if there is an interest.

 

Bill,

 

many thanks for your reply - if it had been printed resin I'd have ordered by now! I'm afraid etched brass is another matter: I need lot of practice with some scrap brass - previous efforts have been diabolical - which is currently on my "when I've got nothing else to do" list, below unblocking the gutters.....

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In 4 mm/ft scale, there was once, many moons ago and before my time, a Colin Ashby kit for the sleeper wagon - I think D307 with the half-drop-sides. In 7 mm/ft scale, Slaters have a kit, also for D307. I believe this uses the same underframe as the cattle wagon - at least the dimensions are the same - so that could be a starting point for a 4 mm/ft scale version.

 

Mousa Models have a printed resin kit for D301 in 4 mm/ft scale and Furness in 7 mm/ft. @billbedford has replied as I type, so I expect he's mentioning the Mousa kit...

 

... I have to confess I hadn't been aware this was now available, when I looked on the Mousa website I was expecting to see it still in the "to do" list! The Mousa 7 mm/ft version is listed as "work needed", I see.

 

 

Stephen,

 

For some reason I seem to recall the Colin Ashby kit, not that I ever had one. Thank you for the pointers regarding the cattle wagon - I'll have another look at Midland Wagons, as a suitable frame may be a good jumping-off point for a home build.

 

Bill has indeed linked to Mousa Models, but as I mentioned above, etched brass is far from my forte, so I think I'll be scratch-building the D301 as well!

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[Paul Cram]

Dia 352. Bill Bedford etched kit.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Paul Cram said:

Dia 352. Bill Bedford etched kit.

 

 

Ah, yes, of course. Not built in quantity until 1906, so off my radar!

 

You've got some reluctant transfers there - can I suggest some MicroSet or similar? (No connection other than satisfied customer.)

[Paul Cram]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, yes, of course. Not built in quantity until 1906, so off my radar!

 

You've got some reluctant transfers there - can I suggest some MicroSet or similar? (No connection other than satisfied customer.)

They look worse in the photo.  I used Microsol and microset and they are well affixed just doesn't look like it in the photo

[Compound2632]

Soldering on:

 

 

I’ve fitted the running gear to the second Stephenson Clarke wagon (Roxey / Chatham kit) and also assembled another dumb buffer wagon kit from the same stable, the Parry wagon. The latter went together very easily, though I did manage to waggle the V-hanger once too often…

 

The brake gear for both these wagons will have to be glued in place with a spacer behind the solebar – soldering the brake gear casting directly to the back of the solebar would put it in the right alignment for the wider gauges but look odd in 00. Sometimes 00 can be more challenging than P4!

 

The Stephenson Clarke wagon is down on its springs compared to the Parry wagon – comparing the two to the Brighton Open D, I think both are within an acceptable tolerance range:

 

 

The Parry kit was an impulse purchase at last month’s Uckfield exhibition, bought in frustration at having missed Paul Tasker with is Prickley Pear SER coal wagon and South Eastern Finecast having sold out of their Billinton brake van – it was, after all, the Sunday afternoon of a show in the heart of Brighton territory! I shall have to have a think about what livery I put on it – whether it is a good enough match for any of the wagons in the 1897 film of Bushey. There is a Parry wagon in a c. 1894 photograph of Neilson’s Sidings, Wellingborough [DY 611, R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1980) plate 114] but that is a sprung-buffered example. Many dumb buffered wagons with 36” sides had four 9” planks rather than five 7” (or thereabouts) planks.

 

I’ve also finally got round to experimenting with the Dingham couplings I bought after admiring them on a couple of layouts at ExpoEM in Bracknell in 2018. Whilst I’m happy with 3-links for rakes of wagons, I’m thinking that for a shunting layout something a little less fiddly might be a good idea; also, I’m thinking about fitted vehicles that might be attached to passenger trains and passenger stock in general. The Dingham coupling is a tension-lock coupling designed to use a representation of the real thing’s drawhook – very like the couplings used on vintage tinplate trains. To my mind, that’s the attractive feature – no unprototypical mounting below the headstock.I can see that there might be challenges with longer vehicles on tight curves; there’s a reason why tension lock couplings are mounted on the bogies rather than underframes of bogie carriages. (I won’t mention 6-wheelers.)

 

I’ve done a trial assembly of a couple of pairs – after working out which projecting lugs I shouldn’t trim off because they’re actually stops to limit the movement of the loop and latch!

 

 

Here’s a pair fitted to a couple of covered goods wagons – hooking up the 3-links between these is especially tricky:

 

 

I’ve not yet added the iron wire dropper, not having bought any magnets. One thing I’m not really convinced of is the need for the latch – perhaps someone with experience can comment?

 

The Dingham is supposed to be compatible with 3-links; unfortunately the loop won’t quite reach the Slater’s hook on this 3-plank wagon:

 

 

I suppose I could use the 3-link chain to couple to the Digham hook; of course this works at the latch end:

 

 

Just trying these out, so they’ve only been a push-fit into the coupling slot in the headstock – which is why there’s one lying in the four-foot!

The tail of the etched hook is taller than on a Slater’s hook (about 1.8 mm rather than 1.5 mm) so I lengthened the slot using a 0.6 mm drill bit as a slotting file – one of many techniques that have been suggested to me for opening up a coupling slot for a whitemetal wagon:

 

 

It’s a technique that works adequately with plastic.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[03060]

Hello Stephen,

 

The latch on all of these type of couplings (B&B, DG, etc) is to prevent the loop from re-coupling to the hook having been lifted by the magnet. The theory being that you can have say one electrically activated magnet at the beginning of a fan of sidings and as you propel the train over the magnet you can effectively uncouple the required wagon(s) from the train and push them to a random drop off point in a siding. This saves you having to put magnets at all of your potential drop of points. It generally works very well if you have a smooth running loco but recoupling can occur through jerkiness.

 

Hope this is what you were querying.

Regards,

Ian.

[Buhar]

,The delayed uncoupling feature is very useful, but you might decide you don't need it on all wagons, in which case leave off the latch.  There is a dodge from someone on here where a wider loop of brass wire has be over-laid on and then replaces the original which helps with longer wheelbase stock.

 

I do find them the work of the devil to assemble.  Like ballasting the mood (and the music) has to be right.

 

Alan

Edited November 10, 2019 by Buhar
Nit-picker-ery

[Compound2632]

I’ve been “getting away” with the 0.6 mm bit-as-slotting-file technique on the two Brighton opens, which are now both finished, barring a weathering wash – for that I’ll wait until I have a larger batch to do. On the Open A, No. 6448, I’ve finally used a piece of 0.030” x 0.040” microstrip for the timber bar across the end pillars, with a square of 0.010” x 0.020” microstrip at each end for the bolt head:

 

 

I’m really rather pleased with how the home-made numberplates have come out. (Non-scaling gravity hasn't helped with the 3-link coupling!)

 

For the Open D, I’ve tried to depict a wagon that hasn’t been fully repainted into Billinton’s lead grey livery but has had the 10” lettering applied over the remains of Stroudley lavender grey. I’ve taken as my reference for this Open D No. 229, which appears in a photo of Brighton carriage & wagon works yard “in the early years of this [sic] century” [G. Bixley et al., An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1985) plate 1]. However, the more I stare at that photo, the more I think the wagon may simply be very heavily chalked over. I’ve given mine a nearby number, 227, and Mansell wheels, per No. 459 [Bixley, plate 14]:

 

 

After some hesitation, I’ve omitted the superscript Y on this wagon. The POWSides transfers include two sets of 10” LB&SCR initials on each sheet but only one has the extra Y. It really wouldn’t have hurt the designer to have included it on both sets – it’s easy enough to not use it if it is there but rather harder to use it when it isn’t! However, looking through Bixley, I’m not seeing much evidence of this c. 1899 – 1902 style. This is partly because most of the photos showing the 9” or 10” initials seem to be from a series taken of vehicles with ’07 paint dates. In fact, the only instance I can find is brake van No. 264, with shaded lettering [Bixley, plate 70]. This vehicle was built in 1899. On the other hand, brake van No. 260, built 1898, seen in late 1904, has just LB&SCR without the Y [Bixley, plate 71]. Unfortunately, the photo is at too oblique an angle for the paint date on the solebar to be read. The paintwork looks worn; I’m not convinced the van has been repainted within the previous two years. A further oddity is that the lettering seems to be slightly offset, as if space had been left for the Y. (As this van is an accident victim, with its end verandah demolished, it’s a good reference photo for the cabin end wall and door, usually hard to see in photos!)

 

That brings me round to the question of further Brighton vehicles. I’ve the cattle van to finish – needs re-doing in most areas, I’ve concluded – and I’ve been eyeing up the SEF Billinton brake van kit. The two opens are both Stroudley vehicles. I’ve been thinking about the Cambrian kit C33, which is intended to represent wagons built from 1912 onwards, SR Diagram 1369. This has the same basic body dimensions as wagons built 1896-1904, SR diagrams 1370 and 1371, although these have 3” longer wheelbase. If one was prepared to ignore that, one might get away with passing the kit off as the wood-framed diagram 1370, especially if one went for the wooden sheet rail. Question: when was the Scotch brake abandoned for new construction of these wagons? I’m tempted by the steel frame contractor-built wagons of diagram 1371, having identified three of them in the West Norwood accident of 7 July 1900, thanks to Lt.- Col. von Donop’s careful reporting. To model one of these from the kit, the diagonal ironwork would have to be removed, the end pillars replaced with T-section, the extra end-brace modelled, and new plain solebars made – which would make changing the wheelbase easier. For either diagram, Billinton-pattern grease axleboxes would be needed in lieu of the kit’s oil boxes.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Great work on the Brighton wagons, Stephen

 

Quote

That brings me round to the question of further Brighton vehicles.

....

 

SR Diagram 1369 ... has the same basic body dimensions as wagons built 1896-1904, SR diagrams 1370 and 1371, although these have 3” longer wheelbase. If one was prepared to ignore that, one might get away with passing the kit off as the wood-framed diagram 1370, especially if one went for the wooden sheet rail. Question: when was the Scotch brake abandoned for new construction of these wagons? I’m tempted by the steel frame contractor-built wagons of diagram 1371, having identified three of them in the West Norwood accident of 7 July 1900, ... For either diagram, Billinton-pattern grease axleboxes would be needed in lieu of the kit’s oil boxes.

 

Well, then, you may want to hang on, because there may be some good news before too long ....

 

Here is a "review sample" that I have kindly been sent and that will be appearing on CA once I tackle it (hopefully this weekend). Please excuse my poor photos.

 

 

You will see that it's  SR D1371.  As you say, this represents a contrast, having a steel underframe and a different style of ends from the Cambrian model.  1,250 of these were built between 1896 and 1900.

 

The contractors you mention were Cravens and Birmingham C&W.  I understand that both builders' wagons will be represented.  This is a BC&W as it has cutaway ends to the headstocks and sheet 'bobbins' in triangular mounts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

@Edwardian, that does remind me that faking steel headstocks from the Cambrian kit's representation of wooden ones should have been on my little list of challenges, along with the metalwork around the lip of the curved end.

 

That West Norwood accident was a rear-end collision between a down West Croydon passenger train and the rear portion of a goods train that had become divided. Both trains were headed by six-coupled radial tanks. That of the passenger train was certainly an E4, being No. 492; the goods train engine's number isn't given, it could have been an E3 or an E4; E3 seems possibly more likely on goods work, even though there were rather fewer of them. The damaged goods stock  included three of these contractor-built Open As, an Open D, and a couple of Midland "trucks" which are more than likely D299 - so with this translucent green object, all available as kits, as is the goods brake - if one made a hash of that, not a problem, as it is reported as "completely broken up"*. Most of the carriages in the passenger train were 4-wheelers of 1880s vintage - RTR? Who knows? So with the Bachmann E4, this might be as near as one can get to an authentic RTR smash.

 

*The goods guard, Benjamin Tinsley, was in the van but luckily escaped with minor injuries. I noted before that the train became divided due to the breaking of a coupling on a Midland covered goods wagon but that doesn't excuse the West Norwood Junction signalman's failure to observe that the train passing his box was incomplete. 

 

 

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I’m really rather please with how the home-made numberplates have come out.

 

So am I !  Any tips on how you achieved the metallic look?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

 

So am I !  Any tips on how you achieved the metallic look?

 

That's probably mostly down to lighting. The numberplates are printed on photographic paper at the highest resolution my printer offers - it's a now quite elderly HP Deskjet3055A. With a new blade in the craft knife, I cut round the numberplate and peel the top layer off - this about 0.005" thick. The plate is fixed to the solebar with Roket Max cyanoacrylate. In this case there is an oval plate cast on the solebar which is in fact slightly smaller than my printed plate - I would have done better to file this off first. The wagon is given a spray coat of Humbrol matt varnish.