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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. They list mostly 1/35 scale stuff - if the generic lettering is available in other sizes, it could have potential for PO wagon lettering. I found the human eyeballs a bit unnerving and what was the context for the German Heere Division's support of CND?

 

You weren't scrolling fast enough!  :-)

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Whilst browsing randomly - waiting for the exit polls - and really looking for photos of North Warwickshire colliery PO wagons - I came across this rather splendid J.P. Richards 7 mm scale model of Drake & Mount wagon No. 33:

 

large_1998_7857__0001_.jpg.989688ed86ca0f68b8f38dcca9c50de8.jpg

 

NRM, released under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 Licence.

 

I presume that this model is based on the same photo as the POWSides transfers (which I've just bought), since it has the same number, 33. 

 

Now, the Drake & Mount wagons I have my eye on are the dumb-buffered 4-plank wagons Nos. 2 and 6 that appear in the 1897 Bushey film (at 25 s). J.P. Richards' model would appear to support my interpretation of those as light grey, although my impression was that the ironwork was black; this could just be the effect of differential weathering / discolouration of wood and metal. On these earlier wagons, the white border to the diagonal stripe looks broader and also goes up the ends, making a rhomboid box shape. Now the tricky bit is the background colour of the panel. On one, No. 6, this looked to be the same colour as the body - the black shading of the lettering is clear. But could that be faded red? On No. 2, the panel appears darker but the shading can still be made out - could also be red...

 

I'd be interested to track down the supposed source photo of No. 33 and in particular get a date for it. There is an HMRS photo, showing a hybrid livery - looking as if one wagon has been built out of parts of two! The Lightmoor index lists photos in A.G. Thomas and in Turton's Twelfth...

 

The NRM website has a whole gallery of photos of J.P. Richards' wagons. Happy browsing! 

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Scribing plank lines in 0.040" Plastikard; as mentioned for the Pelsall wagon, using a 45° blade held vertically to get the correct chamfer on the top of each plank:

 

1111932097_DrakeMountsidesandendsscribed.JPG.47226ebc15cf08671620cd3c162f979a.JPG

 

Top to bottom:

 

Sides for Drake & Mount dumb-buffered wagons, 4½” curb rail, three 9" planks, 11" top plank.

Ends for the same: 11" headstock (actually 4 mm, to be trimmed to match solebars), five 9" planks - the bottom plank holds the floorboards in.

Ends for Midland D351 coal wagons, scribed using the Slaters D299 sides as reference, along with a pair of sides in course of modification. Filing and scraping off the molded corner plate leaves a very ragged end, so they've been cut back 1 mm to the line of the vertical ironwork. The ends will be cut to the full width of the wagon - 30 mm. What I haven't yet worked out is how to do the end door hinge bar, which stands proud of the wagon end. On the real wagons, it was held in place in a hole in the top of the end knee:

 

102044676_88-D0267D351highsidedwagonwithenddoorDrg790hingedetail.jpg.f73ed780e84deaeee828b654b609dd8a.jpg

 

Crop from Drg. 790, available on the Midland Railway Study Centre website.

 

I'm feeling microstrip may not be the most robust material for this...

 

 

 

 

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Last time I had to do an end-door bar (to replace a broken part in a Slaters' kit), I hashed it up out of brass wire and fret waste. I spliced the brass top to the knee into the plastic bit already pasted: not easy with an assembled and painted wagon. If I'd planned it better, I'd have done the whole knee from brass strip before assembling. Rivet transfers would be the easier way to simulate the bolt heads, given that the strip would be a bit thick for punched fasteners (and yes, I know that they're supposed to be bolt heads on the inside).

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Seek and ye shall find:

 

2035102171_large_1996_7310_NL_94PoplarDock1898compressed.jpg.eb9fe6af9a1485218c5dc2ff614d3831.jpg

 

Poplar Dock, North London Railway, 1898. Released under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 Licence by the Science Museum Group.

 

Compare the 20th wagon in the goods train at Bushey in 1897 (at 33 seconds). Apart from the different style of coke raves - those on the wagon in the film are similar to the next wagon along in the photo - we have a match; at least, confirming owner and livery style.

 

Information seems sparse but it would appear there was no Bradwell Wood colliery, at least so named, at Chatterley, though there was a Parkhouse Colliery nearby and a Bradwell Wood tile works - see the OS 25" map of 1898.

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But what might the livery be? Looking at both the film and the photo:

  • white lettering shaded - but is it black on grey bodywork or red on black?
  • diamond logo (SCC?) - background appears darker than bodywork - black or red?
  • are the corner plates a different colour to the bodywork?

Answers on an 1898 coloured postcard, please!

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Information seems sparse but it would appear there was no Bradwell Wood colliery, at least so named, at Chatterley, though there was a Parkhouse Colliery nearby and a Bradwell Wood tile works - see the OS 25" map of 1898.

 

You wouldn't expect coke wagon to be owned by collieries, but by coke ovens or maybe gasworks. 

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10 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

You wouldn't expect coke wagon to be owned by collieries, but by coke ovens or maybe gasworks. 

 

Ah yes, very true. There are a number of ironworks around Chatterley according to that OS map. But surely they would be consumers rather than producers of coke?

 

7 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I like to know what happened next?

 

I would imagine the chap in the wagon has been encouraging the coke out of the side door with the aid of a shovel, whilst taking care not to fall out himself. But did he climb in before or after the wagon was tipped and what is he standing on now?

 

The load has been discharged into what I take to be a Thames barge, though those with greater knowledge may be able to infer more from the rigging.

Edited by Compound2632
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37 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The gas works takes in coal and heats it in a confined space and coke is the by product of the process.

 

 

Well, yes indeed. But also, 18th century advances in ironworking depended upon the move from charcoal to coke as a reducing agent; therefore ironworks had coking ovens, with no regard for gas production. Possibly, the Bradwell Wood company had become uncompetitive as an ironworks so had moved into coking as its main business.

 

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

You wouldn't expect coke wagon to be owned by collieries, but by coke ovens or maybe gasworks. 

 

... and also by coal factors and coal merchants, there being considerable industrial (what industries?) and domestic (more expensive than coal, though, so a luxury product) demand for coke as a smokeless fuel.

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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, yes indeed. But also, 18th century advances in ironworking depended upon the move from charcoal to coke as a reducing agent; therefore ironworks had coking ovens, with no regard for gas production. Possibly, the Bradwell Wood company had become uncompetitive as an ironworks so had moved into coking as its main business.

 

 

... and also by coal factors and coal merchants, there being considerable industrial (what industries?) and domestic (more expensive than coal, though, so a luxury product) demand for coke as a smokeless fuel.

 

But in this case, I suspect the owner was this outfit: https://www.scottishshale.co.uk/GazBeyond/BSEnglandCoal/BSEC_Works/BradwellOilWorks.html

 

Adam

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51 minutes ago, Adam said:

 

But in this case, I suspect the owner was this outfit: https://www.scottishshale.co.uk/GazBeyond/BSEnglandCoal/BSEC_Works/BradwellOilWorks.html

 

Adam

 

Bingo! Thanks for that. An aspect of the 19th century coal industry which, I confess, is new to me.

Edited by Compound2632
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Studying the picture, there’s another matching tilt table in the down position close to the camera. You can just make out a curved riveted support for a structure to support the wagon as far as solebar level on that side. I fancy matey is just stood on a pile of coke to pose for the picture, and he’ll then beat a hasty retreat out of the wagon. His oppo  is standing on a walkway, and he will give a good upward clout with a big hammer on the two side door droppers, allowing the side door to drop and somewhere over half the load to tumble out into the boat. (I reckon a Thames barge) The two of them will then perforce scramble into the wagon and shovel like mad to get the rest of the coke out of the corners, probably several tons. Hard old life.

on the matter of shale oil, I have seen a small scale operation in Somerset which had been abandoned. Shale rocks which had been quarried out had to be placed in an iron retort and heated up, when the oil trapped in them sweated out. Presumably coal was used for the heating which would raise the question of whether the value of the coal used was less than the oil extracted, it must have been marginal, so possibly a more elaborate retort which produced heat for the shale rocks and converted the coal to coke to retain some value was involved?

Edited by Northroader
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2 hours ago, Northroader said:

on the matter of shale oil, I have seen a small scale operation in Somerset which had been abandoned. Shale rocks which had been quarried out had to be placed in an iron retort and heated up, when the oil trapped in them sweated out. Presumably coal was used for the heating which would raise the question of whether the value of the coal used was less than the oil extracted, it must have been marginal, so possibly a more elaborate retort which produced heat for the shale rocks and converted the coal to coke to retain some value was involved?

 

I'm guessing you mean the retort house at Kilve, which is located in the carpark at the far end of Sea Lane from the A39 in Kilve village:

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1057429

 

also

 

https://www.scottishshale.co.uk/GazBeyond/BSEnglandShale/BSES_Works/KilveOilWorks.html

 

An interesting piece of Somerset's industrial archaeology and a useful might-have-been for us railway modellers!

 

All the best,

 

Mark

 

Edited by 2996 Victor
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Further serendipity. I found my North Staffs Wagon book*, for which I had been hunting in pursuit of quite another question. This same NRM photo is reproduced as plate 61, p. 84, where it is captioned as Milwall Docks, 22 June 1898. The lettering in the diamond is confirmed as SCC, for Staffordshire Chemical Company. There's not an entry for a firm of that name in Grace's Guide, but the 1922 Who's Who in Engineering includes:

 

HENSHAW, Albert Mayon, J.P., M.Inst.C.E., F.G.S., Min. Engr.; Director, Talk-o'-th'-Hill Colliery, Ltd., Staffordshire Chemical Co., Ltd., and New Acid Co., Ltd.; s. of John Henshaw, Kings.wood, Bristol. Ed. Merchant Venturers Tech. Coll., Bristol. Training: Collieries in Gloucestershire, Lancashire, Staffordshire, etc. Career: P.-Pres., N. Staff. Inst. of Min. and Mech. Engrs.; experience 17 in Eng., Development and Working of Mines; Recovery Work after Fires and Explosions; Rescue Work; Reports and Valuations. Central Examiner for Certificates under Coal Mines Act. Address: Talk-o'-th'-Hill, Stoke-on-Trent. T. A.: "Carbon, Talke." T. N.: 1481 Central, Hanley.

 

The North Staffordshire Oil Co. Ltd, to which @Adam pointed us, was wound up in 1872 so presumably SCC was its successor. On the 1898 OS 25" map, chemical works are marked on both sides of the railway line.

 

*G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1993).

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Penlan said:

The sketch in Fig 40 of the above book shows four close, if not tight together coke raves on the side view and five separated raves on the end view.
The wagon in the photo being tipped has four close raves on both the side and end, the next wagon has five separatly spaced raves on the sides and ends.

 

Indeed, the sketch being based on the photo - the shape of the V-hanger is made up, since only the non-brake side is on view, likewise in the film. The raves on the wagon in the film are of the open type, but look taller to me.

 

One thing I've noticed, staring at the photo, is that on the wagon side, the bottom plank is wider than the others, whereas on the end, it's the top one that's wider.

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18 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

You wouldn't expect coke wagon to be owned by collieries, but by coke ovens or maybe gasworks. 

 

Yes but... Newbury and Vobster collieries in Somerset both had banks of coke ovens as much of the coal they produced was suitable for making foundry coke. This coke was all sent to the Westbury Iron Works which had additional coke ovens on site for dealing with coal from other sources.

 

The Westbury Iron Co had fifty wagons (numbers 501-550) registered as coke wagons 5ft 2in deep which included a 2ft cage, obtained in mid-1872. 

 

PS: the collieries were owned by the Iron Co at that time.

Edited by wagonman
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Too many models still incomplete at the end of the year!

 

But thanks to @Edwardian and @Skinnylinny for demonstrating how to steal stills off the BFI, I can show some pictures of some of the wagons I've been on about from the goods train at Bushey in 1897

 

First, the Bradwell Wood (Staffordshire Chemical Company) coke wagon:

 

1660352458_Bushey1897BradwellWoodcrop.jpg.7f1941b48fb0fb765b6cfe3809c5dbc2.jpg

 

Then the two Drake & Mount, Bracknell, wagons, along with one from Lofthouse Colliery:

 

1575095101_Bushey1897DrakeMountcrop.jpg.bec5ea6022db3cc30fa5f42a6ecfbfaf.jpg

 

And finally for now, the Pelsall wagon, sandwiched between Midland D299 wagons:

 

743244560_Bushey1897Pelsallcrop.jpg.7a13e3b203503bac2b3aa09fec961bfa.jpg

 

Happy New Year to you all!

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If only we had more footage like that!  BFI do have a Youtube channel, but it doesn't look as if this one is up there yet.

 

Meanwhile, spot the MR wagons in these shots.

 

gettyimages-919598146-2048x2048.jpg.183a9e5be5b5c983426b6bd896a675c8.jpg

Forth Banks Goods, 1893. Getty images. Embedding permitted.

 

 

gettyimages-90773505-2048x2048.jpg.2b5fb1a7c3e7454951553e66b9c68d59.jpg

Birkenhead Docks, ca. 1924. Getty images. Embedding permitted.

 

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Forth Bank Goods, Newcastle, 1893, so we can presume that all the 4-plank opens in the foreground are North Eastern although only one clearly advertises itself as such, No. 27032 - shaded lettering. I find North Eastern Record Vol. 2 about as clear as mud on goods wagon livery, at least before 1903, but I think this style came in in 1892, so most of the other wagons will be in an earlier style, whatever that may be... Some interesting unloading going on (or rather left half-done). The van with its door open is, I think, a North Eastern diagram G1. Some had roof doors on one side with roll-back covers, this one seems to have an iron roof with transverse strips covering the joints between the plates, like a Great Western iron mink. 

 

A Midland D299 in notably lighter grey than anything else, middle left, and possibly another in the further distance on the right; maybe others on the same line behind it.

 

The D299 on the left is between two North British 3-plank wagons. The one on the left is freshly painted with the large N B initials - compare the discussion in these two topics:

Assuming the 1893 date for this photo is correct, this pushes the adoption of the large initials back further than 1896 which was the earliest for which I had previously seen evidence.

 

The North British wagon to the right of the D299 has clearly been out on the road for a good while longer; I think that at its last overhaul just the crescent with date and the tare weight were repainted - see examples discussed in those NBR livery topics.

 

The vehicle that is furthest from home is right in the centre of the photo - what seems to be a South Eastern Railway outside-framed covered goods wagon. The four end pillars are a tell-tale, as is the diagonal bracing to the lower half of the doors. The fly in the ointment of this identification is that it it only has one vertical (two panels) between the doors and the end, rather than two vertials (three panels) - more like a LCDR / H&B van, though those only had the usual two end pillars. So maybe it's something else entirely?

 

The Birkenhead photo is post-pooling, so anything goes and does. The only evidence of the grouping is a wagon lettered LMS - but clearly without a full repaint. I think it's a LNWR wagon -  when shabby, they often appear to have darker ironwork than woodwork. Lovely ground detail though. I defy any P4 or S7 modellers to fill up their flangeways quite as much as the line in the foreground!

 

 

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

The Birkenhead photo is post-pooling, so anything goes and does. The only evidence of the grouping is a wagon lettered LMS - but clearly without a full repaint. I think it's a LNWR wagon -  when shabby, they often appear to have darker ironwork than woodwork. Lovely ground detail though. I defy any P4 or S7 modellers to fill up their flangeways quite as much as the line in the foreground!

 

 

 

I rather defy the Birkenhead Dock authorities to move those point blades too...

 

 

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