More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[billbedford]

The Midland D. 359 vans are odd, and I can't think of a way that the roof door could have been useful. On the LNWR and L&Y vans the door posts at extended above the roof planking and the cantrail is stopped at the doorposts. Thus there is a clear opening between the floor and the centre line of the roof. On the Midland vans this wasn't true, not only was the cantrail continuous, but the runner for the door covered the opening. Meaning that the roof opening was cut into the roof planks. The consequence of this was that anything that was to be loaded using the roof door would have to be craned over the van sides. 

 

While there were 220 vans built in lot 309, 50 of these were built to D.356 and 6 to D.376. This leaves 164 in diagrams 357, 358 and 359. I suspect that the majority were built to 357 leaving only a handful to have been built with roof doors. 

[Trains&armour]

I came across this postcard on Ebay when looking for extra details and information for my (soon to be realized....) Aberdovey layout:

 

A view of the wharf in Aberdovey from the jetty, circa 1905. A nice lineup of wagons, most of them Cambrian 3 plank wagons, but what caught my eye was the private owner wagon. A bit too early for my period, but still a nice one to model (applying rule one here). If you zoom in, you can read almost all of the lettering:

An early wagon of Joseph Hawkinks & sons, Cannock Old Coppice Colliery.

But then I spotted the dumb buffered wagon half hidden by the GWR wagon (4 plank open to build L322?). And if my eyes don't deceive me, the bottom line reads Aberdovey, the top lettering starts with a G. Now, according to Mike Lloyd (private owners on the Cambrian), there are only three known Aberdovey traders with their own wagon, and  one of them is Griffith Davies & son, still listed in 1926.

Could this be his wagon, lettered  G.Davies (& son), or is it just me imaging things in my quest for an unique wagon for my layout....
Comments please.

[Compound2632]

I Like the Cannock Old Coppice Colliery wagon - I'm on the lookout for Cannock Chase coalfield wagons suitable for c. 1902, as they fit my area of interest very nicely. So that's a real find! Shame we can't quite read the small script writing...

 

I should think that's G for Griffith unless either of the other two merchants also had first names beginning with G! But is he Coal & Coke Merchant or Coal & Seed Merchant or Coal & Brick Merchant...

[Guy Rixon]

Presumably coal raised around Cannock might find its way to London? If so, I could use a few such wagons.

[MR Chuffer]

Back to MR D359 vans with roof hatches which I thought we were done with, I was Just browsing some photos I must have culled off here sometime and saw these. At the time, I was more interested in the wagon turntables but there are rather a lot of the vans with roof doors. I don't think they're MR, must've been popular with some company, any ideas?

 

 

 

[Northroader]

LNWR. You’ll see one in the middle of the picture without a side door opposite to the sliding roof, so back to wagon turntables. There’s two small diamonds on a lot of them.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Northroader

[billbedford]

All LNWR except the one at the far end of the third line from the left, I'm not sure what it is though, NER maybe. 

 

The van at the near end of that line is a beer van. 

[Compound2632]

On 28/01/2020 at 22:22, billbedford said:

All LNWR except the one at the far end of the third line from the left, I'm not sure what it is though, NER maybe.  

 

This is one of a pair of c. 1903 photos taken at the LNWR Windsor Street goods station, Birmingham - they're both on Warwickshire Railways. The captions include identification of most of the wagons by very reputable authorities. The non-LNWR covered goods wagon is a L&Y D3. I built one some time back:

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[MR Chuffer]

Great, thanks all, time to move on from roof hatches....

Edited January 29, 2020 by MR Chuffer
syntax

[Nick Holliday]

20 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

Presumably coal raised around Cannock might find its way to London? If so, I could use a few such wagons.

Len Tavender, in his Coal Trade Wagons, has an interesting analysis of delayed wagons as dispatched from the Cannock Chase Colliery in 1865, presented as a map showing the locations of the delayed wagons. Bear in mind that these are just the wagons that have experienced undue delays, in just one month of operations, and probably represent a small proportion of the total trade, so it is likely that many destinations may have been missed.  

21 wagons delayed at central London locations, Poplar, Shepherds Bush, Camden etc. 

18 wagons west of London, mostly at Wokingham, for some reason, but including Staines, Reading, Ascot and Blackwater.

A few were recorded south of the Thames, at Wimbledon, Shorncliffe, Alton and Bishopstone (Southampton)

It's interesting that a second map, showing delayed wagons dispatched by the CCCCo from Doncaster pits, mainly Houghall, over the same month, show a number of destinations on the LBSC system, including Dorking and Burgess Hill.

[Compound2632]

On 28/01/2020 at 20:05, Guy Rixon said:

Presumably coal raised around Cannock might find its way to London? If so, I could use a few such wagons.

 

Here, again, is a wagon from Pelsall colliery heading south down the LNWR main line at Bushey in 1897:

 

 

The same train includes wagons of Drake & Mount of Bracknell, so a routing via Acton &c for destinations on the LSWR line to Wokingham and thence over the SER to Reading seems highly plausible for wagons from the Chase. That was an area that the Great Western didn't quite penetrate, so the alternative routing via the OWW line and hence to Reading seems less probable although wagons from collieries served by the Midland might be routed via Bordesley, rather than going right round by Wigston and Cricklewood.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Trains&armour]

On 28/01/2020 at 20:20, Compound2632 said:

I Like the Cannock Old Coppice Colliery wagon - I'm on the lookout for Cannock Chase coalfield wagons suitable for c. 1902, as they fit my area of interest very nicely. So that's a real find! Shame we can't quite read the small script writing...

 

I should think that's G for Griffith unless either of the other two merchants also had first names beginning with G!

But is he Coal & Coke Merchant or Coal & Seed Merchant or Coal & Brick Merchant...

You don't make life easy....

My take on the livery of the Aberdovey wagon, all over black

 

 

As to the general merchant bit, Davies is mentioned several times in the Welsh Gazette and West Wales Advertiser as a merchant, and in the Gazette of 28th March 1907 I found this bit of intriguing information: 

Shipping News. — The s.s. Droxmore arrived at aberdovey harbour on Friday noon with a cargo of oats and potatoes from Newry, Ireland, part of which was discharged tor Mr. Griffith Davis.

Sounds like a general merchant to me

Way too early for my period, but an Aberdovey wagon... I thought of building it in this way, with visible but faded lettering, somewhere in a corner of the layout: 

 

 

Described in M Lloyd, private owners on the Cambrian, p 12, at Porthywaen:

The photograph was taken in 1952 but the foreman at the yard said the wagon body had been in the same position for 50 years. The makeshift roof being added when it was converted to store salt.

 

And as an extra, a possible interpretation of the Joseph Hawkins wagon, small lettering taken from a later Hawkins wagon:

 

[Compound2632]

On the whole, I think I'd go for "COAL & COKE MERCHANTS" since the middle word has to fit between the door hinges - I can't see evidence of any lettering on the side knee washer plate, which I think is as much as one can see before the end of that pesky Great Western wagon gets in the way.

 

23 minutes ago, Trains&armour said:

Described in M Lloyd, private owners on the Cambrian, p 12, at Porthywaen:

The photograph was taken in 1952 but the foreman at the yard said the wagon body had been in the same position for 50 years. The makeshift roof being added when it was converted to store salt.

 

At least 40 years at that date, as dumb buffer wagons were finally outlawed on the main line just before the Great War. Did it get stranded, or had it already become a buffer stop/storage bin? 

 

As to the script writing on the Cannock Old Coppice Colliery wagon, I doubt that at this date it would have included a phone number - a rarity on colliery wagons pre-Grouping, though starting to creep in on merchants' wagons in the Edwardian period, in the larger conurbations. I'm sure it does include an Empty to instruction but I would have thought at this date that would include specifying that it was on the LNWR.

 

Incidentally, it seems I was wrong to be sceptical of coal from the Cannock Chase coalfield being routed via the Great Western. Googling "Bloomfield station" throws up several but the nearest was on the Belfast & County Down...

[Mark Forrest]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Incidentally, it seems I was wrong to be sceptical of coal from the Cannock Chase coalfield being routed via the Great Western. Googling "Bloomfield station" throws up several but the nearest was on the Belfast & County Down...

My first thought on seeing that was Bloomfield near Tipton, where there were sidings from both the Princes End branch and the Stour Valley line, but also a Goods Shed on the GWR (OWW) line just south of Princes End station, adjacent to Bloomfield brick works.

[Annie]

8 hours ago, Trains&armour said:

You don't make life easy....

My take on the livery of the Aberdovey wagon, all over black

 

 

As to the general merchant bit, Davies is mentioned several times in the Welsh Gazette and West Wales Advertiser as a merchant, and in the Gazette of 28th March 1907 I found this bit of intriguing information: 

Shipping News. — The s.s. Droxmore arrived at aberdovey harbour on Friday noon with a cargo of oats and potatoes from Newry, Ireland, part of which was discharged tor Mr. Griffith Davis.

Sounds like a general merchant to me

Way too early for my period, but an Aberdovey wagon... I thought of building it in this way, with visible but faded lettering, somewhere in a corner of the layout: 

 

 

Described in M Lloyd, private owners on the Cambrian, p 12, at Porthywaen:

The photograph was taken in 1952 but the foreman at the yard said the wagon body had been in the same position for 50 years. The makeshift roof being added when it was converted to store salt.

 

And as an extra, a possible interpretation of the Joseph Hawkins wagon, small lettering taken from a later Hawkins wagon:

 

Please change the letter 'G' on the G. Davies wagon as that style of 'G' did not exist in the pre-grouping era or for a long time afterwards.  

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Annie said:

Please change the letter 'G' on the G. Davies wagon as that style of 'G' did not exist in the pre-grouping era or for a long time afterwards.  

 

I agree, but I think @Trains&armour was just trying to illustrate the likely wording and layout of the lettering, not its exact shape - e.g. lower case has been used in places.

[Annie]

Perhaps I'm just sensitised to it due to the number of texture revisions I've done on pre-grouping wagons where the original builder had cheerfully used a modern Arial font instead of drawing out the lettering correctly.  I realise it was a sample to show a likely lettering layout, but seeing that 'G' just set my teeth on edge.

[Worsdell forever]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Incidentally, it seems I was wrong to be sceptical of coal from the Cannock Chase coalfield being routed via the Great Western. Googling "Bloomfield station" throws up several but the nearest was on the Belfast & County Down...

 

3 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

My first thought on seeing that was Bloomfield near Tipton, where there were sidings from both the Princes End branch and the Stour Valley line, but also a Goods Shed on the GWR (OWW) line just south of Princes End station, adjacent to Bloomfield brick works.

 

I read it as Bloomfield Jn (junction).

[Trains&armour]

Hi, yes, these were just quickies, drawings to show the general layout of the liveries, not exact reconstructions. I  used the fonts installed in my drawing program. The wagon line drawings themselves also are not exact replica's of the prototype, just some drawings I had handy. Any comments welcome, and will try to incorporate them in a more precise drawing. But will replace the G forthwith!
As to the small lettering on the Hawkins wagon, these were copied off a later wagon, to fill the blank space. Again, any suggestions welcome.

The lettering on the second half of the Aberdovey wagon is no more than an educated guess. it could as well be Coal & coke Merchants, or, as popular in the area, Coal & Lime Merchants. And on page 7 of M. Llloyd's  book there is an photo of a wagon of a nearby trader: Thomas & Jones, Coal , coke & General Merchants, Aberystwyth.

BTW, what is exactly wrong with the  ' G '

Edited January 30, 2020 by Trains&armour
extra information

[Adam]

3 hours ago, Trains&armour said:

Hi, yes, these were just quickies, drawings to show the general layout of the liveries, not exact reconstructions. I  used the fonts installed in my drawing program. The wagon line drawings themselves also are not exact replica's of the prototype, just some drawings I had handy. Any comments welcome, and will try to incorporate them in a more precise drawing. But will replace the G forthwith!
As to the small lettering on the Hawkins wagon, these were copied off a later wagon, to fill the blank space. Again, any suggestions welcome.

The lettering on the second half of the Aberdovey wagon is no more than an educated guess. it could as well be Coal & coke Merchants, or, as popular in the area, Coal & Lime Merchants. And on page 7 of M. Llloyd's  book there is an photo of a wagon of a nearby trader: Thomas & Jones, Coal , coke & General Merchants, Aberystwyth.

 

I suppose the obvious thing is that all the main letting should be in caps. That aside, the Lloyd photo is fascinating - I’ve been looking for an excuse to build a dumb buffered wagon for years and as a BR-era modeller hadn’t, until now. 

 

Adam

[Annie]

5 hours ago, Trains&armour said:

Hi, yes, these were just quickies, drawings to show the general layout of the liveries, not exact reconstructions. I  used the fonts installed in my drawing program. The wagon line drawings themselves also are not exact replica's of the prototype, just some drawings I had handy. Any comments welcome, and will try to incorporate them in a more precise drawing. But will replace the G forthwith!
As to the small lettering on the Hawkins wagon, these were copied off a later wagon, to fill the blank space. Again, any suggestions welcome.

The lettering on the second half of the Aberdovey wagon is no more than an educated guess. it could as well be Coal & coke Merchants, or, as popular in the area, Coal & Lime Merchants. And on page 7 of M. Llloyd's  book there is an photo of a wagon of a nearby trader: Thomas & Jones, Coal , coke & General Merchants, Aberystwyth.

BTW, what is exactly wrong with the  ' G '

 

The 'G' that you used is painfully obvious as a modern font 'G'.  During the pre-grouping era a 'G' commonly took the form of a 'C' with an upright tag on the lower left hand end.  Shape and proportion varied a bit, but in nearly every case the 'G' took this form.  When I'm making wagon textures for digital models I usually end up hand drawing most of the lettering since modern fonts have all the wrong proportions for pre-grouping lettering.  Sorry to be such a nit-picker, it's just that after spending so much time making sure lettering is as correct as I can make it I tend to be a bit more fussy about such things.

[Trains&armour]

18 hours ago, Annie said:

 

The 'G' that you used is painfully obvious as a modern font 'G'.  During the pre-grouping era a 'G' commonly took the form of a 'C' with an upright tag on the lower left hand end.  Shape and proportion varied a bit, but in nearly every case the 'G' took this form.  When I'm making wagon textures for digital models I usually end up hand drawing most of the lettering since modern fonts have all the wrong proportions for pre-grouping lettering.  Sorry to be such a nit-picker, it's just that after spending so much time making sure lettering is as correct as I can make it I tend to be a bit more fussy about such things.

As to the G on the Aberdovey wagon, I agree with you. Is this better? Still a modern font, but I don't really have the time to draw my own letters.

 

General merchants as in this example, M.Lloyd page 7

 

 

But If you mean that the horizontal bar on the upright tag, as in this modern G was not seen, I don't really agree with you. It might have been less common, but I've seen several examples of that type of G on early wagons. They generally do differ from the modern letter in being  more rounded.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Trains&armour
error corrected

[Regularity]

9 hours ago, Annie said:

Perhaps I'm just sensitised to it due to the number of texture revisions I've done on pre-grouping wagons where the original builder had cheerfully used a modern Arial font instead of drawing out the lettering correctly. 

Yet again an example of just how wide-ranging an impact our hobby has on individuals' knowledge.

[Trains&armour]

And a somewhat better Hawkins wagon drawing. Not perfect, but giving a reasonable general impression I think.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Trains&armour
Corrected a small error

[Annie]

6 hours ago, Trains&armour said:

As to the G on the Aberdovey wagon, I agree with you. Is this better? Still a modern font, but I don't really have the time to draw my own letters.

 

General merchants as in this example, M.Lloyd page 7

 

 

But If you mean that the horizontal bar on the upright tag, as in this modern G was not seen, I don't really agree with you. It might have been less common, but I've seen several examples of that type of G on early wagons. They generally do differ from the modern letter in being  more rounded.

I agree that the horizontal bar on the 'G' pre-grouping did exist, but was less common.  However you have hit the nail on the head by noting that they were more rounded.  With pre-grouping lettering it is all about shape and proportions which tend to be noticeably different to modern fonts.

 

Nice revision on the Aberdovey wagon by the way.  You might have used a modern font, but the form of the 'G' is now a lot less glaring than the earlier example.