More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Miss Prism]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@Craigw, by your early 20s period, had the grease axleboxes with which the pre c. 1897-9 lots were originally equipped completely given way to oil?

 

'completely' is perhaps too absolute for the early '20s. 'largely' probably gives a more accurate picture.

 

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I note the two different types and position of door spring and bang plates - as these 19th century wagons got older, there was much more variety. Is my c. 1902 period too uniform and dull?

 

In 1902, there seems to be little variation, and it's suprising how many [elder] opens had no spring bangers and door plates at all. The first diagram to have bangers and plates seems to be the O4.

 

Bangers and plates varied in style:

- none at all;

- a single short central banger and round plate

- two short bangers and round (or occasionally rectangular) plates

- two longer bangers and strip plates.

 

There seem to be about three longitudinal spacings for the bangers/plates.

 

Hence the variety increased considerably as the styles changed.

 

Those wagons having bangers and plates probably were not upgraded to the latest style, but wagons originally without bangers and plates probably got whatever was in fashion at the time of the wagon refurb.

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Miss Prism

[57xx]

1 hour ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

Ah yes.  Morgan Design kits used to be available directly from Morgan until his death.  But now it appears that the society have made them members only, or at shows.

 

That's a shame. After seeing Jeremy Suter's Iron Mink thread on the Scalefour forum, I was quite tempted to get a couple of kits.

[Compound2632]

Well, I suppose it would add £26 to the coat of one's fleet of minks - depends how many you intend to build. I had a quick look at the rules - there doesn't seem to be anything about taking an oath to forswear the narrower gauges.

[Regularity]

They have repeatedly said that they exist for all railway modellers interested in 4mm scale, not just P4 nor even P4 and EM.

[jwealleans]

Of course they do.  I thought all the prejudice we hear about is ancient history now.   I wouldn't miss the S4 or EMGS shows at my end of the country, they're invaluable.

 

The last time I spoke to the late Richard Hollingsworth of what was then still Parkside Dundas was at Scalefour North, when I bought the then new LNER Toad E kit from him.   He asked whether I wanted EM or P4 wheels instead of the OO gauge ones supplied.   I looked left and right, leaned in, lowered my voice and said "No thanks, I'll be building it narrow gauge".  He leaned towards me and said "You and almost everyone else who's bought one today".  We both had a good chuckle.

Edited February 27, 2020 by jwealleans

[Regularity]

47 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I thought all the prejudice we hear about is ancient history now. 

I suspect that like the idea that "finescale is elitist", it's all in the minds of those who need to feel excluded.

 

"Everyone has the right to expand beyond their immediate horizons.” - Deborah Bull

[Compound2632]

In my OP, I described my approach to modelling as pseudo-finescale. I could make an analogy with those conductors and orchestras who perform the music of the eighteenth century on modern instruments, not in the overblown manner of a Stokowski but in a style and using techniques informed by the work of the period instrument orchestras. P4-informed 00, if you will.

[Regularity]

Striving for greater accuracy in terms of both historical and dimensional terms is the only definition of “finescale” that makes any sense or meaning. There’s “exact scale”, and “getting as close as possible”, which accepts imperfection whilst trying to achieve it. I am firmly in the latter camp: life is too short.

[2996 Victor]

Exact scale is impossible. Otherwise we would have 4mm/1ft scale nuts and bolts holding our iron/steel/wood wagons together. Etched brass, white metal and styrene represents all manner of unrelated materials. We can only emulate in miniature.

 

In the vintage car world, cars are said to be "totally original". But what does that mean? As soon as the car has a new set of tyres, it's no longer "original", i.e. as it was manufactured. Vintage MGs are a passion of mine, but you would laugh at the originality of some of the rarer models. Paddy's shovel doesn't come close.

 

Getting close is what we do: making miniature representations of the things that interest us in materials we can work in the home or home workshop.

 

Strive for excellence, not perfection!

[Rail-Online]

Talking about GWR early wagon number plates - here is one from my collection, they were not perfect castings, the carriers for the numbers being visible in the castings - but after all it was only a wagon! Can anyone tell me what it is from?  Incidently the red means nothing - just an undercoat

 

Tony

[Western Star]

On 29/02/2020 at 15:34, Rail-Online said:

Talking about GWR early wagon number plates - here is one from my collection, they were not perfect castings, the carriers for the numbers being visible in the castings...

 

 

Thank you for posting the photo, this is the first "original" that I have seen.  I have not found a GWR drawing of this type of plate so far and I hope that you can provide some details of your plate.

 

What are the overall dimensions of the casting?

What are the internal dimensions between opposing rims?

What is the thickness of the casting at the outside edge?

What is the depth of the numbers?

What are the dimensions of the plates upon which the numbers are mounted (the plates/numbers which are used to make the sand mould for the casting?

 

Many thanks, Graham Beare

Edited March 1, 2020 by Western Star

[Chrisbr]

51 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Can anyone tell me what it is from?

Tony,

According to GWR Goods Wagons it is to diagram DD3 - Cylindrical Tank Wagon for Oil, Creosote etc 3108 gall - Lot 335 There are pictures of 43931 and 43939 with plates in the book.

From the Wagon register it was built in Aug 1901 and there is no definitive scrap date. It has Exeter Depot Jun 1959 and Croes Newydd Jan 1960 annotated on the line.

 

regards,

 

Chris

[Adam]

15 hours ago, Chrisbr said:

Tony,

According to GWR Goods Wagons it is to diagram DD3 - Cylindrical Tank Wagon for Oil, Creosote etc 3108 gall - Lot 335 There are pictures of 43931 and 43939 with plates in the book.

From the Wagon register it was built in Aug 1901 and there is no definitive scrap date. It has Exeter Depot Jun 1959 and Croes Newydd Jan 1960 annotated on the line.

 

regards,

 

Chris

 

So one of these: https://zenfolio.page.link/5JCRU, the longevity would explain the survival, no doubt.

 

Adam

[Compound2632]

So the date is spot on for the putative peak plates period. It also gives some clue to the method of manufacture - a wooden master made from a frame with numbers on blocks inserted. Is its survival due to its remaining on the wagon after the livery change - on the solebar perhaps? The story I heard is that the plates removed from wagons were used as brake van ballast.

[Compound2632]

I'm looking forward to a short self-catering break near Kington in early April, while our elder son is on Skye and our younger in Snowdonia. We're hoping that it will have stopped raining by then and our trip won't end up thisways:

 

 

An interesting mix of wagons, two of which appear to be steel-framed. As far as I've discovered after a few minutes' googling, the Old Radnor Co. worked quarries at Dolyhir, just over the border in Radnorshire, so I'm assuming these wagons are for limestone rather than coal, though I imagine there must have been some coal traffic inwards to the quarry.

 

Any suggestions on the year?

 

[Annie]

I like the signals.

[Adam]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So the date is spot on for the putative peak plates period. It also gives some clue to the method of manufacture - a wooden master made from a frame with numbers on blocks inserted. Is its survival due to its remaining on the wagon after the livery change - on the solebar perhaps? The story I heard is that the plates removed from wagons were used as brake van ballast.

 

 

Sounds a perfectly normal method of manufacture. I imagine it was on the solebar - probably at the left hand end where the internal user number has been daubed. I’m not sure when BR imposed their internal numbering series  beginning 0xxxx but I suspect this is a probable date for the removal of these particular plates. Going on the information provided above I suspect after 1960!

 

Adam

Edited March 2, 2020 by Adam

[airnimal]

This book on The New Radnor Branch by Nicholas de Courtais has more information about the Old Radnor Lime Co.

It doesn't give a date for the accident but suggest that the steel framed wagons were obtained in 1910.

There is another view of the accident in the book along with a drawing of the steel frame wagon with different lettering styles.

Edited March 2, 2020 by airnimal

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, airnimal said:

This book on The New Radnor Branch by Nicholas de Courtais has more information about the Old Radnor Lime Co.

It doesn't give a date for the accident but suggest that the steel framed wagons were obtained in 1910.

There is another view of the accident in the book along with a drawing of the steel fram wagon with different lettering styles.

 

 

Hi Mike, thanks - I should get a copy as pre-holiday research!

[Compound2632]

Continuing with postings that aren't very directly connected to my own wagon modelling, the club member who gave me the Great Western wagons has also asked about a couple of non-pool PO wagons that he has, specifically whether he can legitimately use them for his 50s/60s BR(W) layout. 

 

First up is the Cambrian Models acid jar wagon. The kit is described as a 1923 RCH 16'6" wagon but the most reproduced photo is of a wagon built by Chas. Roberts in 1909:

 

 

 

The model in question follows this photo as far as livery is concerned - I think it may have been pre-printed, from the days when Cambrian did such things.

 

The HMRS collection has other photos of Chance & Hunt wagons, a couple with peaked roofs - two salt wagons, No. 333 built by the Birmingham RC&W Co. and No. 337, which is in the Hurst Nelson collection, so presumably that firm was the builder, and a standard 7-plank RCH 1923 mineral wagon, No. 321. These have also been the subject or inspiration for various more or chiefly less RTR models - the Dapol O gauge version of No. 333 looks rather nice, with a beatiful rendition of the Birmingham RC&W Co. builder's plate, though the oil axleboxes are a bit of a let-down.

 

There's plenty of information on the firm itself; Grace's Guide is a good starting point. From this I learn that the firm became part of ICI in 1939 but the implication seems to be that the Chance & Hunt name was retained, with chemical production continuing to poison Oldbury until the site was buried under the M5 in 1964.

 

The question stands: did Chance & Hunt's acid jar wagons continue in service in the post-war period and if so, in what livery? My understanding is that non-pool PO wagons remained privately owned at nationalisation.

 

The second wagon is the Anglo-Persian Oil Company twin-tank wagon, subject of kits by Wills/SEF and Jidenco - the wagon in question being undoubtedly from the Wills/SEF kit. This wagon has been the subject of an RMWeb thread:

 

 

From this I glean that the wagon was built in 1927, that there is a builder's official photo of No. 1581; a wagon bearing this number survived in internal use at a location in South Wales; and that there may have been no more than six built. There does seem to be the implication that it was still in traffic in the 60s. The APOC livery is clearly inappropriate by that period.

 

Its popularity as a model appears to be due to it suffering the misfortune of being the subject of an F.J. Roche drawing.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

More ramblings. If modelling the Midland in north Birmingham, I ought eventually to build some City of Birmingham Gas Department wagons. I've been reading Keith Turton's article on the Warwickshire Railways website. This confirms that gas coal was coming from the Derbyshire / Nottinghamshire / South Yorkshire coalfield, at least in 1939. Turton gives a comprehensive catalogue of the department's wagons - the largest municipally-owned fleet in the country. The snag for the would-be modeller is that up to the end of the 19th century, the department's wagons were all iron or steel hoppers of distinctive design, with more conventional wooden 12 ton wagons only appearing in the 20th century.

 

Even more frustratingly, there used to be RTR models of both:

 

 

... in Gauge 1, by Carette for Bassett-Lowke. No. 779 represents one of the final batch of hoppers, in steel rather than iron, built in 1899 by the Midland RC&W Co.; No. 1201 was built in 1911 by the Midland RC&W Co's successor, the Metropolitan RC&W Co. That's a passable impression of their builder's plate on the solebar. 

 

For the hopper wagon, a quick search shows there are drawings in the HMRS's Metro-Cammell collection.

 

The principal traffics for a gas works are gas coal in and coke out. Wagons for the latter present no problem - I've plenty of D342 coke wagons.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Rail-Online]

On 29/02/2020 at 16:09, Western Star said:

 

 

Thank you for posting the photo, this is the first "original" that I have seen.  I have not found a GWR drawing of this type of plate so far and I hope that you can provide some details of your plate.

 

What are the overall dimensions of the casting?  21"  x  7 11/16"

What are the internal dimensions between opposing rims?  20 1/4"

What is the thickness of the casting at the outside edge? difficult about 9/16"

What is the depth of the numbers?  4" widths vary from 3 1/4" to 3 1/2"

What are the dimensions of the plates upon which the numbers are mounted (the plates/numbers which are used to make the sand mould for the casting?

4 1/2"

Many thanks, Graham Beare

 

By "original" do you think it is a fake?

 

What are you going to do with all these dimensions- repro them?

 

Tony

Edited March 4, 2020 by Rail-Online
forgot width of numbers

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

What are you going to do with all these dimensions- repro them?

 

... in 7 mm/ft scale, I presume.

 

This method of making number plate casting masters is different to that for, say, Midland or LNWR numberplates, where I think individual cut-out numbers must have been somehow fixed onto a standard master pattern. There must have been alternative frames, 16½" and 12" long, for 4 and 3 digit numbers. Of the half-dozen or so good photos of plated wagons I have to hand, all but two have a 1 in the 5-digit number. From the spacing of the numbers, the 1 is clearly on a narrower block, so I think there must have been other frame sizes for numbers including one of more 1s.

 

The Coopercraft plates are 6.8 mm, 5.8 mm, and 4.2 mm long, with the GWR plate 6.6 mm long, all 2.5 mm tall with 1.8 mm numerals / letters - and all the numbers include a 1. 

[Western Star]

On 04/03/2020 at 14:16, Rail-Online said:

By "original" do you think it is a fake?

 

What are you going to do with all these dimensions- repro them?

Given that I am looking at a photograph then I think that your plate is an original.  I am aware of reproductions of the later, rectangular, plate for wagons as illustrated here  - not the least because I was responsible for the pattern making to enable GWS Didcot to provide new plates for their wagons circa 1978.

 

Etched plates for 7mm wagons have been produced, see here , with the size and font determined by interpolation of photographs.  The provision of dimensions from an example- thank you for the information  - enables checking of the model plates and correction of the drawing as necessary.

 

regards, Graham

Edited April 15, 2020 by Western Star