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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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The doyen of LNW wagon building, Mike @airnimal, has been at it again with the D13s - this time he's building a later pair, with sprung buffers:

That got me suffering with pangs of guilt about my failure to complete mine - guilt towards John Redrup of London Road Models, who supplied the parts for the bolsters over two years ago. So today I tackled one of the fiddly bits I'd been putting off - the D-shackles on the bolsters:

 

893754611_LNWD12andD13timbertruckswithbolstersandshackles.JPG.01b33b0876ab75e375e0e1bfa0a3c559.JPG

 

 On the real thing, these were U-shaped, with forged ends with a hole, pinned to the bolster, as replicated in this Gauge 3 model. I chickened out of trying to replicate this, simply drilling through the bolster end and making a rectangle of 0.45 mm brass wire that clips into place with some fiddling and several discarded attempts:

 

1752411831_LNWD12withLRMbolsterandshackles.JPG.487e3d6dbdfec41d0b7572ea7586ef05.JPG

 

I've got all the LRM etched bits - especially brake levers - but I haven't yet found where I've hidden my collection of Ratio bits. I recall I was also undecided whether to make use of the Ratio bits for the fixed coupling between the two D13 wagons, or makes something from scratch. The Ratio curved bolster is over-size, as I recall.

 

I also need to think about chains. There seem commonly to have been two sizes - large, but not quite coupling chain size, attached to the D shackle, and small, attached to the hole in the stanchion with a hook on the loose end.

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Incidentally the Gauge 1 model you mention  is not a Gauge 1 but Gauge 3.

The link takes you to the L.N.W.R society web site where it's states it was built and painted by Mike Williams. Mike built it from one of his own kits and I painted it but Mike applied the transfers. 

I would dearly love to have a train of Mike's wagon kits but where would I put them.

While we taking about these larger models, many years ago when I was in my twenties I was privileged to visit Eric Rayner who was the founder of the L.N.W.R society. He had a large Gauge 3 layout in the cellar of his home about one mile away from where I now live. 

Mike

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4 hours ago, airnimal said:

Incidentally the Gauge 1 model you mention  is not a Gauge 1 but Gauge 3.

 

My inattention - now corrected. I wrote that post after dinner with wine. I'm suffering for that with a 4am mug of tea, as usual.

 

Following the LNWR Society Facebook page, I have noticed a leaning to the very large scales - there's been some lovely stuff, both modern and antique. The Premier Line seems to have been an early favourite with Bing/Carette for Bassett Lowke.

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Too many of these pesky O4s with the defective sheet rail...

 

1522152428_GWO4excess.JPG.af91302160ec854e30c92d05d26a7890.JPG

 

... but a cunning plan. At my c. 1902 target date, O4s were rolling off the production line in their hundreds but were still vastly outnumbered by pre-O5 four plank wagons. So, how to turn superfluous 5-plank wagons into useful 4-plank wagons? Easy: chop off the top plank - we've done it before: 

 

 

With a bit of work, I think an acceptable 4-plank wagon could be made this way. However, my lazy thinking is, that with a bit less work, a sheeted 4-plank wagon can be made. Apart from cutting down the sides and ends, it's just a question of removing the diagonal ironwork and making good by scribing in the plank lines. (Plus sorting out the brakes). 

 

The wagon sheet is the same as I used right back at the start of this topic:

 

This time I've exploited @Ian Smith's artwork to make a sheet with a different number and use-by date. The dots of cyano fixing the tie-ropes are still drying out in the photo.

 

I still want to have one or two O4s so have to tackle the defective sheet rail issue. I've taken due note of @Craigw's use of components from the Parkside O11 kit. This leads to a question for all you Great Western wagon aficionados: Did O11s loose their sheet rails in later life, as the O4s did? Googling shows that two preserved O11s, 13154 and 86582 have sheet rails (but have these been "restored"?) whilst one, 19818, does not - which gives me hope. If I can use the sheet rail parts from the Parkside kit, my thought is that I can build that kit in "late" condition and present it to the club member who has been generously offloading his "early" Great Western stock onto me!

 

I dare say Atkins would answer my question but the copy I consult is currently in lockdown about a mile and a half away.

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One story I've heard is that Swindon's sheet rail was so superior to everyone else's they frequently got nicked before the wagon to which they were attached was returned to home metals, and that the GWR got so fed up with supplying everyone else with sheet rails they took to removing (or not fitting in the first place) the things themselves.

Edited by mike morley
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13 minutes ago, mike morley said:

One story I've heard is that Swindon's sheet rail was so superior to everyone else's 

 

Superior in the sense of actually existing. Sheet rails do seem to have been fairly common south of the river - all those Brighton Open As I seem to have ended up building - but pretty rare on the northern lines.

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I've just read your track back to LNER wagons. From memory the O5s were wider than the pre diagram 4 plank wagons. If this is the case you will also need to cut and shut the width. I can check Atkins later (unless someone beats me to it) but just at the moment I'm cooking dinner so can't pop to the workshop. 

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17 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

I've just read your track back to LNER wagons. From memory the O5s were wider than the pre diagram 4 plank wagons. If this is the case you will also need to cut and shut the width. I can check Atkins later (unless someone beats me to it) but just at the moment I'm cooking dinner so can't pop to the workshop. 

 

My collection of scanned pages from Atkins (3rd edition) includes drawings of diagram O5 (fig. 252) and the pre-diagram 4-plank (fig. 251), both shown as 7'6" wide, but not O4. 

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34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Superior in the sense of actually existing. Sheet rails do seem to have been fairly common south of the river - all those Brighton Open As I seem to have ended up building - but pretty rare on the northern lines.

The design of "merchandise wagons" probably depended on the typical merchandise being carried.  As you say, down south, merchandise wagons were 4 or 5 planked with a sheet rail, often on a round end. On the North Staffs (and possibly other northern lines), I believe that 2 plank wagons were described as merchandise wagons.  

Best wishes

Eric  

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Just now, burgundy said:

The design of "merchandise wagons" probably depended on the typical merchandise being carried.  As you say, down south, merchandise wagons were 4 or 5 planked with a sheet rail, often on a round end. On the North Staffs (and possibly other northern lines), I believe that 2 plank wagons were described as merchandise wagons.  

Best wishes

Eric  

 

Indeed, the LNWR urwagen was the 1-plank D1 - or its precursors - with progression to the 2-plank D2 the 4-plank D4. The Great Western went through a similar progression, including a 3-plank phase, which was really the 2-plank but with less wide planks.

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Googling shows that two preserved O11s, 13154 and 86582 have sheet rails (but have these been "restored"?) whilst one, 19818, does not - which gives me hope.

 

New-build. The 813 fund acquired the drawings & have been remanufacturing as & when. I dare say 19818's time will come.

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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My collection of scanned pages from Atkins (3rd edition) includes drawings of diagram O5 (fig. 252) and the pre-diagram 4-plank (fig. 251), both shown as 7'6" wide, but not O4. 

 

Apologies. I was thinking of the wagons with the thicker 5th plank (O3 &c.) They were 6" wider at 8' outside. A bit modern for you at only 116 years old for the oldest!

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I finished the first of the pair of O4 wagons yesterday and hope to do the other today so I can have a mass painting session (1 x 3 plank, 2 x 4 plank, 2 x O11 and 2 x O4).

 

The GWR seems to have had I higher proportion of wagons fitted with tarp bars and it seems to have been a bit of an issue for them that as they were common user wagons, the GWR was basically supplying wagons fitted to use tarps for everyone. Understandably this wore thin and they do seem to have been removed over a period of time. If you were to build the O11 in early BR condition I suspect the lack of tarp bar would be correct.  I think the Coopercraft labelling of the 2 x O4 kits may be a misnomer. One is labelled as a post 1925 because of the lack of the tarp bar. Photographic evidence to me indicates that the tarp gear was being removed from the 4 plank wagons as 5 plank wagons were being built with it. 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

IMG_E9437.JPG

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@Paul Cram, looking very smart with their fancy brass brakes! Numberplates to the right, please and don't forget the square banger plate on the door, on the brake side only:

 

583729747_DY2494D299No88181showingmethodofloadingboxes.jpg.7afea5d5813cbf0db3517034e7542598.jpg

 

NRM DY 2494, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

And there's still time to improve the look of the Ellis 10A axleboxes by trimming the side lugs:

 

 

For variety and prototypical balance, one or two of them could have the additional vertical ironwork between the end pillars:

 

748212500_MidlandD299lococoal(Westhouses)end.JPG.d6fde88ef5c9f46cdaf9c389e83dbdf8.JPG

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Paul Cram, looking very smart with their fancy brass brakes! Numberplates to the right, please and don't forget the square banger plate on the door, on the brake side only:

 

207333345_DY2494D299No88181showingmethodofloadingboxes.jpg.de264b1f3e82a560299a93c664330733.jpg

 

NRM DY 2494, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

And there's still time to improve the look of the Ellis 10A axleboxes by trimming the side lugs:

 

 

For variety and prototypical balance, one or two of them could have the additional vertical ironwork between the end pillars:

 

822945942_MidlandD299lococoal(Westhouses)end.JPG.c787ef5c9b5806f325d892bd14e1519e.JPG

Both photos are very nice!

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11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh dear! I haven't actually done any modelling today. Must do better. The time went in writing to various people on and off RMWeb on Midland-related matters.

Which is greatly appreciated in this remote corner of the World by one member! 

 

Thx,

 

Colin

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I'm partially to blame by telling a friend who is writing a book that Stephen is the man to consult about several aspects. Sorry Stephen but thank you and I'm sure that your reward will be in heaven.

 

Dave

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There I am knocking Slaters 4mm Midland wagons out on a production line basis, as well as re-engineering 40 year old kits to conform to the MR short lever wagon handbrake, which set me thinking, how did this originate and why was it "the standard" on the Midland, which I don't - or haven't seen - on other pre-grouping railways? A cursory search on here and the Internet didn't produce any results.

 

I now have enough D299s and D305s, thank you, @Compound2632 for the impetus and @Derek Russan/Eileens Emporium for the copious supplies of the kits at a realistic price - why do eBayers pay massively over the odds for these kits?

 

So now I must turn to mass provisioning of suitable tarpaulin wagon sheets, beyond what I have seen commercially available, Roger Smith and Wizard/51L, are there any other ideas or recommendations?

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On 14/04/2020 at 10:48, MR Chuffer said:

There I am knocking Slaters 4mm Midland wagons out on a production line basis, as well as re-engineering 40 year old kits to conform to the MR short lever wagon handbrake, which set me thinking, how did this originate and why was it "the standard" on the Midland, which I don't - or haven't seen - on other pre-grouping railways? A cursory search on here and the Internet didn't produce any results.

 

The brake lever thing is curious. It seems to go right back to the early 70s, before which time Midland wagons had a form of scotch brake with a single block and long lever. However, pre-drawing 550 5-plank wagons had long levers [Midland Wagons Vol. 1 Plates 90 and 91]. Long levers came back in again with the 10 ton wagons built from 1911 onwards. When Higbridge built D299 clones for the S&DJR, they used long levers rather than the standard short lever. 

 

The amount of force that the brake can apply is determined by the moment about the brake shaft pivot that the guard or shunter can apply. The longer the lever, the greater the brake force. Was there some idea to limit the brake force, to avoid excessive strain on the running gear? T.G. Clayton, the Midland Carriage & Wagon Superintendent, was chair of the RCH Goods Wagon Superintendents' Committee that drew up the RCH 1887 private owner wagon specification - the drawings accompanying that (reproduced in A.J. Watts' Ince book) show long levers.

 

On 14/04/2020 at 10:48, MR Chuffer said:

I now have enough D299s and D305s, thank you, @Compound2632 for the impetus and @Derek Russan/Eileens Emporium for the copious supplies of the kits at a realistic price - why do eBayers pay massively over the odds for these kits?

 

I bought some on Ebay - I had a bit of a splurge in early 2017 but never paid more than around £16 per wagon. I think we really have to thank David White at Slaters for having the patience to rescue them from the Coopercraft debacle and put them back into production. One frustrating downside is that Slaters had, apparently, continued to supply POWSides with the PO wagon kits, which POWSides sold (very cheaply) undecorated as well as pre-printed. POWSides no longer supply the undecorated kits (or at least that page of their website is a blank) but Slaters have yet to re-introduce them under their own name. 

 

On 14/04/2020 at 10:48, MR Chuffer said:

So now I must turn to mass provisioning of suitable tarpaulin wagon sheets, beyond what I have seen commercially available, Roger Smith and Wizard/51L, are there any other ideas or recommendations?

 

I have a supply of the sheets produced by Thomas Petith - by far the best I've come across, being printed on thin paper that one has to cut free from a backing sheet. I last bought some in May 2017. Unfortunately, his website wagonsheets.co.uk is apparently now defunct. I haven't tried other methods of contact - does anyone have any up-to-date information? As shown in several posts above, I cyano 16 pieces of sewing thread around the edge to represent the tie ropes.

 

When I did my most recent Great Western sheet from @Ian Smith's artwork, I'd forgotten I had the Great Western sheets in the photo below. I've also accepted that the LNWR ones with the broad red diagonal cross are wrong, at least for my period - thanks to @Penlan's patient research, it's clear that at the turn-of-the-century, LNWR sheets had a cross aligned along the centre axes of the sheet (red or white is still debatable) , not extending to the edges, and with serif lettering.

 

wagonsheets.JPG.ff78b8b78a86c0a83958f0bfc48c52f1.JPG1365872759_MidlandD299secondscratchbodysheetedperGurnosphoto.JPG.7f09e22701b327a3079ff7037cf3c00b.JPG

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