More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

On 26/04/2020 at 20:26, Tricky said:

You could of course use real wood planks. With a small amount of arm twisting it could be arranged....

 

On 27/04/2020 at 09:28, Rowsley17D said:

I use coffee stirrers and those extra long matches.

 

On 27/04/2020 at 10:43, mike morley said:

The little drums Camembert (and probably other cheeses from forn parts) are sold in are a useful source of thin timber.

 

One has to consider the grade of wood being depicted. For rough sawn timber, real wood would do, if the grain isn't too coarse. I think the planks under the sheets in the Vastern Road photo may be planed timber - perhaps floorboards - in which case any real wood would surely be too coarse-grained? But I go like the suggestion that I should be eating more Camembert...

 

@Lecorbusier has drawn my attention to the timber loads in some 1922 Derby officials of Birmingham Central Goods and Lawley Street Depots [links to Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways site]. There are sheeted plank loads  next to the Charles Abell wagon but I particularly like this close up showing planks being unloaded onto a dray. The overhang is as long as the dray itself. I wouldn't like to be cycling along behind that lot! (The Charles Abell wagon is fascinating too - a most peculiar form of construction with a curb rail that is flush with the solebar - any ideas how that hangs together, or examples of similar?)

 

Anyway, talking of sawing things up, when I opened up my box of paint tins, I found yet another Coopercraft O4 - slipped in last time I was at the club, from the same member who kindly donated previous wagons unsuited to his BR(W) modelling. So it is definitely time I got to grips with the too many 5-planks / not enough 4-planks conundrum:

 

 

Top: Coopercraft O4 side, from a stripped and disassembled kit. The door bang plates have been scraped off.

 

Middle: the other side from the same kit, with top plank cut off, diagonal ironwork scraped off and plank grooves made good. I made a deep score line just above the top plank groove then snapped the top plank off. I've left the edge rough for the moment; I'll clean it up once the wagon is re-assembled.

 

Bottom: Coopercraft O5 side for comparison.

 

This is reminiscent of what I did a good while back to produce LNWR D53 4-plank wagons from D53 5-plank wagons. 

 

I was lucky on Ebay earlier this year, picking up some Coopercraft O5 kits at reasonable prices. The O4 kits, both the as-built and w/o sheet bar versions, are more often available, so they are potentially a good source of 4-plank wagons.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Guy Rixon]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Charles Abell wagon is fascinating too - a most peculiar form of construction with a curb rail that is flush with the solebar - any ideas how that hangs together, or examples of similar?

Is it hoppered perhaps? If the floor is minimal then the side rails need not reach out to the sheeting.

[Worsdell forever]

Quote

 (The Charles Abell wagon is fascinating too - a most peculiar form of construction with a curb rail that is flush with the solebar - any ideas how that hangs together, or examples of similar?)

 

Never mind that, have you seen the very efficient if slightly unstable NER single axle wagon? Built to diagram C0.5...

 

 

[wagonman]

On 27/04/2020 at 11:21, Compound2632 said:

 

 

@Lecorbusier has drawn my attention to the timber loads in some 1922 Derby officials of Birmingham Central Goods and Lawley Street Depots [links to Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways site]. There are sheeted plank loads  next to the Charles Abell wagon but I particularly like this close up showing planks being unloaded onto a dray. The overhang is as long as the dray itself. I wouldn't like to be cycling along behind that lot! (The Charles Abell wagon is fascinating too - a most peculiar form of construction with a curb rail that is flush with the solebar - any ideas how that hangs together, or examples of similar?)

 

 

 

That Abell wagon is truly weird. The sole bar is undersized so part of the curb rail acts as the top of the sole bar and must therefore be the same thickness. But it would still need a rebate cut in the top part to accommodate the floor planks, and presumably there are spacer blocks for the door hinges and corner plates. Was there a shortage of oak scantlings when that wagon was built?

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, wagonman said:

That Abell wagon is truly weird. 

 

Looking at it again, I note that the end stanchions are steel or iron T-section, so I wonder if the solebars, "upper solebars" and headstocks are too. That would account for the lack of crown plates and other washer plates on the solebar.

 

There is a listing for this firm in P. Lee, Nuneaton & Bedworth Coal, Stone, Clay and Iron (Amberley, 2011). As the wagon itself proclaims, this was a quarry firm so the wagon is likely to be for the conveyance of granite. Such wagons were often iron or steel framed (not suffering from the same corrosion problems as iron-framed coal wagons). This one seems to be of rather larger volume than the norm - 3 or 4-plank wagons being more typical - perhaps it is a hopper, as @Guy Rixon suggests. The quarry was connected to the LNWR at Nuneaton, so I suspect the wagon is registered with that company. 

[wagonman]

Well spotted re the end stanchions! The lack of crown plates need not be significant as many wagons used individual washers or had flitch plates over the sole bars – I suspect the former in this case though it is too fuzzy to be sure. There is no sign of a hopper door release so I doubt it was a hopper. Most stone wagons were unloaded using the time honoured man-with-a-shovel method.

 

Another odd variation was to extend the side knee washer plate below the curb rail and use a spacer from the sole bar as in this Waldegrave wagon. This seems to have been a peculiarity of the Radstock Wagon Co whose works were later taken over by Marcroft.

 

[Compound2632]

This a good point at which to draw attention to the antique ex-PO wagon @airnimal's just built:

This has the bottom plank doubling up as curb rail, being bolted directly to the solebar, but with a section of deep curb rail supporting the door hinges. There were some very curious methods of construction around before the 1887 RCH specification!

[Compound2632]

@Rowsley17D very kindly sent me some odds and bobs of Coopercraft kits, mostly brake gear, which is always useful, but also a pair of solebars and a pair of 4-plank ends, so I've united those with my cut-down O4 sides:

 

 

I'd wrecked one of the solebars from the wagon those sides came from (axleguard split beyond repair) and carving all the sheet rail gear off the ends is a bit of a fag, so I'm particularly grateful for these bits. I've done my usual conversion to grease axleboxes. The cut-down sides lack the row of bolt (possibly rivet) heads along the top of the corner plate; as this wagon will be sheeted, I'm not worrying about that. 

 

As far as I can work out, most 4-plankers were built without any sort of door stop but from the early years of the 20th century, metal spring stops started to be fitted - the Vastern Road Yard photo, and a companion photo of Kings Meadow Yard, show some with and some without, and quite a variety of styles. For this one, I've gone for a pair of short stops well-separated - made from scrap brass strip from the edge of the D418 kit - with square bang plates.  

 

The way the solebar sprue is laid out, the two buffers are at right angles. There's usually some misalignment between the two halfs of the mould which results in one buffer being mis-registered lengthways - which can be dealt with by filing the buffer face flat - and the other being mis-registered sideways - much harder to deal with. So on this wagon, I've used the two "good" buffers from Rowsley17D's sprues on the near side and two good ones salvaged from the old wagon on the far side.

 

The Coopercraft kits seem to have been moulded in a variety of colours of plastic. Kits I built as a teenager are brown; the majority of others are a pale grey. Rowsley17D's sprues are all a darker grey, apart from one piece that is off-white. There's a science of kit archaeology here!

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[wagonman]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 The cut-down sides lack the row of bolt (possibly rivet) heads along the top of the corner plate; as this wagon will be sheeted, I'm not worrying about that. 

 

 

Definitely bolts, with hex nuts on the outside. I think the LNWR were the only ones to rivet their corner plates, though I'm open to correction on that point. My knowledge is rather parochial!

 

 

 

[Regularity]

According to GWR wagons, the GWR used rivets.

I was under the impression that nearly everyone else used bolts, and usually square headed until BR days.

[Compound2632]

I've stared at some photos of Great Western 4-planks and convinced myself I am seeing bolts with hexagonal nuts on the outside - but possibly of smaller size than those used on the side knees and hinges.

 

The LNWR did rivet but the Midland was certainly bolts - countersunk on the inside - and hexagonal nuts.

[wagonman]

I presume the GWR riveted its wagon under frames as they were steel after all, and also the bodywork of Iron Minks and the various N diagram opens likewise, but the wooden bodied wagons like the O5 were bolted together.

 

 

[Penrhos1920]

On 27/04/2020 at 11:21, Compound2632 said:

 

@Lecorbusier has drawn my attention to the timber loads in some 1922 Derby officials of Birmingham Central Goods and Lawley Street Depots [links to Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways site].

 

 

That Birmingham Central Goods photo has another gem in the background.  A GWR V16 van, nothing unusual about that, except it’s not in GWR livery but Rhymney.

[Compound2632]

On 29/04/2020 at 17:31, Penrhos1920 said:

 

That Birmingham Central Goods photo has another gem in the background.  A GWR V16 van, nothing unusual about that, except it’s not in GWR livery but Rhymney.

 

I've found a very interesting little article that explains this! The Rhymney seems to have delighted in creating this sort of confusion. The Type 1 van looks at first glance to be a second-hand Midland vehicle that has had SECR-style cupboard doors replace its sliding door, until one starts notching up the differences - not least that it's a foot shorter. 

 

Continuing with the plank loads, I've added door stops and circular bang plates to the ABS 4-plank and the reconditioned O4 (though I see one door stop has gone adrift):

 

 

The circular door stops are slivers of 0.080" / 2 mm diameter Evergreen rod, glued in place then filed thin and flat. The missing door stop evidently pinged off during that process. I really should have thought of doing this before priming the ABS wagon! Now I'm waiting for another sunny, dry day to get the rattle cans out again - might be in with a chance on Friday, otherwise Saturday. We're forecast thundery showers for tomorrow.

 

I placed an order with Eileen's Emporium a few days ago but the Parkside O11s slipped my mind, so sheet rails are still a little way off. 

 

On 29/04/2020 at 12:28, wagonman said:

I presume the GWR riveted its wagon under frames as they were steel after all, and also the bodywork of Iron Minks and the various N diagram opens likewise, but the wooden bodied wagons like the O5 were bolted together.

 

Mine are welded!

Edited September 7, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

A second wagon from this Great Western batch has gained an identity:

 

 

... from old series Lot 556. A photograph of No. 49108 of the next lot, old series Lot 563, shows similar condition and livery style though with a square door bang plate. That photo is from the 1920 General Appendix, I believe, illustrating a method of loading pit props, but was clearly taken a couple of decades earlier and recycled. I've not worried about the shape of the bang plate, nor have I added the load and tare inscriptions, or the G . W . R lettering on the other side, as these would be hidden by the sheet. The same goes for the number on this side but digits are the one item I'm not short of from my BGS sheet. Unfortunately this sheet F091 is shown as out of stock on the BGS website and I suppose conditions are not propitious for prompt restocking...

 

The choice of number is a bit lazy, as 90 and 12 are pairs of adjacent numbers on the sheet - though I was caught out on the ends where the 9 and 0 had to be closed up a bit and so applied separately.

 

It's not been all Great Western:

 

 

This photo is a bit unkind to my modelling skills - I'm sure that window looks squarer in the flesh! The transfers are from the HMRS Pressfix sheet LMS English pre-Grouping goods vehicle insignia (except LNWR), together with an old Slaters Pressfix sheet for the tare weight and builder's plate. The rectangular brake van number panel is about 1 mm too wide for the door panels so I had to do a bit of cut-and-shut. These tariff brakes are the only vehicles I know of that used this rectangular version of the number panel; my panel beading is a bit over scale width but not by so much, I'm sure. Anyway, the digits have ended up being a bit bunched up. Perhaps I should have picked a number with a 1 in it but I'd already printed the solebar numberplate for the example in the official photo [thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 64139, also Midland Wagons Vol. 2 plate 392]. If I'd picked a made-up number (avoiding known examples of other diagrams in the brake van series) I could have varied the To be returned to LEICESTER inscription - though the other option on the sheet within striking distance of north Birmingham is Derby. I'll have to assume a Leicester - Wigston - Nuneaton - Whitacre - Walsall - Wolverhampton circuit.

 

I also put a number panel on the Kirtley brake:

 

 

Again, the panel on the sheet was too long, compared with photos - it's designed to take a 4-digit number - so I've closed it up by about one vertical board width. The digits are from the same set as those used on the tariff van but they're smaller than the M and don't really fill the space well, so I'll try again with digits from the Slaters sheet. The number is an informed guess. There is a c. 1890 photo that includes M.276 [thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 64609, also Midland Wagons Vol. 2 plate 354] but that van has features that don't match the Mousa kit, so I've gone for a nearby number that doesn't belong to a known example of another diagram. The position of the number panel follows that of M.43 seen in a c. 1880 photo [thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 60494, also Midland Wagons Vol. 2 plate 356]. 

 

I've not seen a photo of a Kirtley van with the 21" M R lettering which does beg the question whether there were any still running c. 1902. Known Kirtley van numbers run up to M.417*. The earliest vans to D390, built from 1877, were presumably given the next available number on the end of the list unless they were replacements for old vans - there are some instance of this with vehicles evidently built to earlier lots (having 8A axleboxes), e.g. M.115, The same goes for the D393/D394 6-wheelers built from 1886. The known number list in Midland Wagons includes M.264 and M.265, near to my chosen number, so might reasonably be supposed to have taken the numbers of withdrawn Kirtley brakes. The 6-wheelers have various features that changed according to build date, e.g. axlebox type, spring shoes/hangers, and buffers, so if I can track down the photos from which those numbers were taken, there's a chance of working out approximately when they were built. For example, if they have self-contained buffers, they'd be from Lot 815 or later, which could potentially indicate Kirtley vans surviving until nearly 1912 - probably an unlikely scenario. 

 

*Discounting M.893, photographed c. 1890, branded Otley & Ilkley Branch Only - this seems to me too high a number to be its original number. The highest known brake van number is M.1692; this leads me to speculate that at any given period, the number of goods brake vans was roughly equal to the number of 0-6-0 goods engines!

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Brassey]

On 28 April 2020 at 21:23, wagonman said:

I think the LNWR were the only ones to rivet their corner plates, though I'm open to correction on that point.

 

Stand corrected; the LNWR used bolts too and Earlestown took great pride in making sure they all lined up.

[Compound2632]

C. Northedge (ed), LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 2001) p. 45: of the J.W. Emmett period, 1867-1903, "Corner plates were 9 in wide and ¼ in thick. The planks were fastened to them with ⅜ in rivets." Then of H.D. Earl's revised designs, "corner plates carried ½ in countersunk bolts with square nuts outside instead of ⅜ in rivets."

 

Mr Earl's innovations are nothing to me - for c. 1902, rivets it is.

[Compound2632]

I don't seem to have got as far as any modelling today though I have had the excitement of the arrival of my latest Eileens order, which has some things that will enable various projects to creep a bit further forward. Excitement but also frustration: I've got the wrong knife blades. I've run out of new, sharp blades; this is holding me back on several fronts. The ones I've got from Eileens are the wrong size - too big, both for my handle and for detail work. I usually get my replacement blades from Hobbycraft; I wish I could remember the brand name. They don't appear on the Hobbycraft website, no doubt in order to comply with the law on supply of knives to minors. 

 

Anyway, the ones I'm after have a 6 mm-wide blade:

 

 

I've had the handle (in fact two) for 35 years or more and I've always found the 45° blade the best to work with.

 

Any suggestions?

 

I've realised I never showed my home-made Midland carriage buffer-guide bases. Here they are at the step end of the D418 fruit van, where they've had to be trimmed to fit round the step. I've not worked out how that was arranged on the real thing:

 

 

Crude but better than either nothing or the S-scale whitemetal casting!

 

Rain stopped play with the spray booth. Yesterday's thundery showers came today. Should be better tomorrow.

[Annie]

A chance purchase of a fine diamond dust lap stone proved to be invaluable when I was still making models since I was able to sharpen the edges on my craft knife blades instead of discarding them when they were blunt.  Living out in the rural countryside like I do meant that buying new blades was always a problem for me, but the diamond sharpening stone changed all that.

[Siberian Snooper]

David Jenkinson in his coach modelling book recommended using an oilstone, works for me.

 

 

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, the ones I'm after have a 6 mm-wide blade:

 

 

I've had the handle (in fact two) for 35 years or more and I've always found the 45° blade the best to work with.

Looks a lot like an X-Acto I have had for well over 40 years.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Looks a lot like an X-Acto I have had for well over 40 years.

 

That's what I thought but the X-Acto blades I bought from Eileens are a larger size - I haven't found a catalogue or part number list that I understand.

[Guy Rixon]

IIRC, you're after X-Acto #2 blades. The bigger ones are #5.

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's what I thought but the X-Acto blades I bought from Eileens are a larger size - I haven't found a catalogue or part number list that I understand.

When I last bought some on-line, I discovered that there is also a smaller size...

It wasn’t, at that precise moment in time, a particularly useful discovery.

[Derek Russan]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's what I thought but the X-Acto blades I bought from Eileens are a larger size - I haven't found a catalogue or part number list that I understand.

 

It is quite simple when you know the secret. Xacto numbers 21* are for the narrow No 1 Handle, Blades 22* for the wider No 2.