More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Derek Russan said:

 

It is quite simple when you know the secret. Xacto numbers 21* are for the narrow No 1 Handle, Blades 22* for the wider No 2.

 

 

Thank you Derek! Once you are a less hard-pressed - I'm aware your short-staffed and busy - make this a little less secret in the website descriptions could be a good thing...

 

... or perhaps not, since the outcome of my having ordered the wrong thing is going to be an order for the correct No. 1 blades and a No. 2 handle so the at I can make use of the No. 2 blades! Anyway, as previously noted, I'd forgotten to put any Parkside O11s on my last order.

[richbrummitt]

There is a list of handles and compatible blades as a downloadable pdf on the x-acto website. Unfortunately I've no idea how to link to it. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

There is a list of handles and compatible blades as a downloadable pdf on the x-acto website. Unfortunately I've no idea how to link to it. 

 

Aha! I believe this is it. Quite well hidden under FAQs rather than products!

 

https://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/NewellRubbermaid/DASH/S7_int/2020/x-acto-matrix.pdf

 

But here's the puzzle: that doesn't list my favourite 45° blade as an option for the No. 1 handle. 

 

Looking at Eileen's again, they don't appear to list any No. 1 blades at the moment...

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[Derek Russan]

There are 5 No 1 blades listed. Search for XAC021 will find them.

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Derek Russan said:

There are 5 No 1 blades listed. Search for XAC021 will find them.

 

 

Thanks - see reply in other thread.

[Compound2632]

Photography under artificial light really doesn't do justice to the warmth of Halfords' red primer:

 

 

I've got pretty used to Great Western wagons in red but even so I'm struggling with a red wood-bodied mink - decades of habituation lead me to expect such a wagon to be grey. But these diagram V5 vehicles were built 1902-1904, so must, if we accept the theory that grey only came in with the large G W lettering, have been turned out in red, except perhaps for the final lots. 

 

Now, while still struggling with this culture shock, we have to go on to consider the question of lettering - paint or cast plates? Again, logic insists on cast plates. These seem to have been absolutely standard on the contemporary O4 opens, and, indeed, on 4-plank wagons from at least Lot 287 onwards - the highest painted number I've seen is 67389 of Lot 191. As we've seen, the cast numberplates remained in use on at least some wagons built after the livery change to large G W initials - O2s up to Lot 522 at least. As for vans, some V6 iron minks of late lots certainly had plates - at least as early as Lot 207. 

 

So, I suppose the test is: is there any photographic evidence for a wagon of any type built to a lot above about Lot 200 in pre-large G W livery without cast plates? If no such examples can be found, then we have to presume that diagram V5 vans carried plates.

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

decades of habituation lead me to expect such a wagon to be grey

 

Yes, me too. I remember when it was a shock to see a red Open. I've gotten quite used to that, but now that red vans have started to pop up it's the same feeling. We are such creatures of habit!

 

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So, I suppose the test is: is there any photographic evidence for a wagon of any type built to a lot above about Lot 200 in pre-large G W livery without cast plates? If no such examples can be found, then we have to presume that diagram V5 vans carried plates.

 

I suppose a counter question would be, is there any photographic evidence of wooden bodied vans - other than cattle vans - with cast plates?

 

Heaven knows organisations are rarely as logical as they would like to think 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I suppose a counter question would be, is there any photographic evidence of wooden bodied vans - other than cattle vans - with cast plates?

 

Yes indeed, though he killer would be a photo of one in pre-1904 livery without plates. But with a diagram of only 325 vehicles and a general paucity of photos from this period, the chances of any photos are slim - which is why I cast the net widely and said any wagon of any type built in this period. When was this trolley built? It was photographed by the Midland's official photographer, Thomas Scotton, probably on 8 March 1903.

 

 

NRM DY 2506, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

It is disappointing that no collection of Great Western official photographs of ex-works wagons appears to exist; one would have thought that a covered goods wagon of a wholly new type would have been worthy of record.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes indeed, though he killer would be a photo of one in pre-1904 livery without plates

 

Been looking, but no luck so far. Found a couple of non-refrigerated Micas with small GWR though, haven't seen that modelled.

[Compound2632]

Q1 provender wagons, built 1903?

 

Sticking with plates, though, among my collection of 4-plank wagons was one I had been given, built as Coopercraft intended as an O5 with DC1 brakes and the cast numberplates rather firmly welded in place. I'd re-built it with conventional brakes and then set a challenge to find a suitable number:

 

 

@Chrisbr very nobly rose to this, sending me a PM with a list of suitable 1xx7x numbers of wagons from Lot 355, built Sept-Nov 1901, and Lot 374, built May-June 1902, from the wagon registers held at the NRM - many thanks again to him for sharing the fruit of his research. From his list, I chose 10670 of Lot 355, because it seemed the easiest to fudge - and fortuitously is from the earlier lot. A bit of scraping with the point of the knife, a sliver of plasticard, and a gentle application of d-limonene, repeated four times over, and behold:

 

 

Of course I'm showing you the most successful of the four attempts!

Edited May 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[richbrummitt]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes indeed, though he killer would be a photo of one in pre-1904 livery without plates. But with a diagram of only 325 vehicles and a general paucity of photos from this period, the chances of any photos are slim - which is why I cast the net widely and said any wagon of any type built in this period. When was this trolley built? It was photographed by the Midland's official photographer, Thomas Scotton, probably on 8 March 1903.

 

 

NRM DY 2506, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

It is disappointing that no collection of Great Western official photographs of ex-works wagons appears to exist; one would have thought that a covered goods wagon of a wholly new type would have been worthy of record.

 

 

This is a GANE, subsequently J1. The caption under plate 224 in Atkins 3rd Ed. says that a number were converted for this traffic. They were built by 1900. 

[chris p bacon]

I hope you'll excuse the interuption but I beg M'learned's indulgence in a small matter.

 

As I get near the end of the current build (Some US Pullmans used on the GN)  I am looking to do a couple of wagons but rather than just take a couple of full kits from the stash I thought I might utilise some underframe kits I have, but the problem for me is what to build on top of them so I wonder if anyone else has a few ideas.

First up are 3 x Three Aitch under frames. 9" WB RCH

 

I also have  3 Maygib 17'6" over headstock & 9' WB

 

And some Ratio LNWR 9' WB (I have 26 of these.....ebay is your friend)

 

My prime interest is the GN, so wagons for the LNWR is an unknown area for me. I do need to model them as I am modelling 'Sandy' which was a joint GN & LNWR station.

 

Any help or pointers to info/drawings is gratefully received.

 

I am forever your umble servant (bows and touches forelock leaving the room backwards)

[richard i]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

I hope you'll excuse the interuption but I beg M'learned's indulgence in a small matter.

 

As I get near the end of the current build (Some US Pullmans used on the GN)  I am looking to do a couple of wagons but rather than just take a couple of full kits from the stash I thought I might utilise some underframe kits I have, but the problem for me is what to build on top of them so I wonder if anyone else has a few ideas.

First up are 3 x Three Aitch under frames. 9" WB RCH

 

I also have  3 Maygib 17'6" over headstock & 9' WB

 

And some Ratio LNWR 9' WB (I have 26 of these.....ebay is your friend)

 

My prime interest is the GN, so wagons for the LNWR is an unknown area for me. I do need to model them as I am modelling 'Sandy' which was a joint GN & LNWR station.

 

Any help or pointers to info/drawings is gratefully received.

 

I am forever your umble servant (bows and touches forelock leaving the room backwards)

Which rch is it? 1909 or 1923? 

[Compound2632]

Dave @chris p bacon, the Three Aitch u/f has oil axleboxes so RCH 1923 specification. With wooden frames, its probably most suitable for a private owner wagon. I rather think this has been superseded by the absolutely superb Parkside RCH 1923 PO wagon kits that are an absolute joy to assemble. Likewise 17'6" long wagons are post-1923 - as a generic steel u/f it's probably suitable for a wide variety of railway company opens or vans. Now as you were last seen building ECJS Pullman cars, I would assume anything post-1923 isn't really appropriate?

 

The Ratio LNWR u/fs come without headstocks - which are part of the body end mouldings. For some LNWR inspiration, try the Society's wagon pages. I've built a number of LNWR wagons - straight from the kits, or various degrees of kit-bashing. Also pages 4 - 10 of this thread.

[Nick Holliday]

2 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

 

This is a GANE, subsequently J1. The caption under plate 224 in Atkins 3rd Ed. says that a number were converted for this traffic. They were built by 1900. 

According to Atkins etc. The first GANE, 40997, was built in 1899, with a further batch of twenty built in 1900, 40577-96. The photo in the book is of 40588, and is virtually identical to the NRM photo above, but is dated as taken in 1910.

The italic script at the near end states:

To work between Staveley Coal & Iron Co Chesterfield & Swindon via Banbury

[chris p bacon]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Now as you were last seen building ECJS Pullman cars, I would assume anything post-1923 isn't really appropriate?

 

Last seen building .....and generally cursing..

 

Thanks for the info, really appreciate it. I'd agree about the Parkside PO wagons, very nice and a very pleasurable build, I might put the first 2 lots to one side for a rainy day challenge.

I'll re-read the start of the thread and look further at the LNWR society site......I am a member so should really know better....

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

According to Atkins etc. The first GANE, 40997, was built in 1899, with a further batch of twenty built in 1900, 40577-96. The photo in the book is of 40588, and is virtually identical to the NRM photo above, but is dated as taken in 1910.

The italic script at the near end states:

To work between Staveley Coal & Iron Co Chesterfield & Swindon via Banbury

 

Well that's rather interesting as they would traverse my area of interest, down the B&DJR line, onto the Camp Hill line at Landor Street Junction, and then left at Bordesley for the exchange sidings with the Great Western.

 

From those build dates, I think one can safely assume that the Midland photo shows as-built condition (apart, perhaps, for the framework to support the pipe load) - with plates. In the Derby Registers, this photo does not have a date listed but it comes at the end of a run of photos illustrating wagon loading taken in Feb/March 1903, DY 2483 to DY 2506 and is followed by a run of scenic views from September 1904 and then July 1903, so I think that 1903 date is reasonably secure. If the photo in Atkins is correctly dated, this traffic evidently continued for some years. Any idea what all these pipes were being used for in Swindon?

Edited May 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[richbrummitt]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well that's rather interesting as they would traverse my area of interest, down the B&DJR line, onto the Camp Hill line at Landor Street Junction, and then left at Bordesley for the exchange sidings with the Great Western.

 

From those build dates, I think one can safely assume that the Midland photo shows as-built condition (apart, perhaps, for the framework to support the pipe load) - with plates. In the Derby Registers, this photo does not have a date listed but it comes at the end of a run of photos illustrating wagon loading taken in Feb/March 1903, DY 2483 to DY 2506 and is followed by a run of scenic views from September 1904 and then July 1903, so I think that 1903 date is reasonably secure. If the photo in Atkins is correctly dated, this traffic evidently continued for some years. Any idea what all these pipes were being used for in Swindon?

 

 According to the caption under plate 224 (dated as 1910) they were for new gas works.

Edited May 4, 2020 by richbrummitt
Re-checked source

[wagonman]

On 03/05/2020 at 09:01, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes indeed, though he killer would be a photo of one in pre-1904 livery without plates. But with a diagram of only 325 vehicles and a general paucity of photos from this period, the chances of any photos are slim - which is why I cast the net widely and said any wagon of any type built in this period. When was this trolley built? It was photographed by the Midland's official photographer, Thomas Scotton, probably on 8 March 1903.

 

 

 

 

Your date is probably spot on as the GWR was laying a new water main for Swindon Works alongside the line from Swindon to Kemble (where the bore holes were). This was in March 1903. Each of the Ganes carried 45 of these 12ft x 15in diameter pipes.

 

There is a photo of one of the work trains on p.144 of The Great Western at Swindon Works by Alan S Peck.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by wagonman
Auto incorrect

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Your date is probably spot on as the GWR was laying a new water main for Swindon Works alongside the line from Swindon to Kemble (where the bore holes were). This was in March 1903. Each of the Ganes carried 45 of these 12ft x 15in diamanté's pipes.

 

There is a photo of one of the work trains on p.144 of The Great Western at Swindon Works by Alan S Peck.

 

This would suggest that the photo of No. 40588 mentioned by @Nick Holliday is mis-dated in Atkins. Since the Midland photographer was out and about photographing wagon loads, it might just be fortuitous that he caught 40594. On the other hand, as there are a couple of senior goods department staff posed with it, it may have been deemed worth a special trip out to Staveley. 

[richbrummitt]

Perhaps. I went back to check my memory and the caption in Atkins does say 1910 and something about new gas works (I've edited my previous post) . They do appear to be pictures of the same working. I haven't found anything about gas works in Swindon at that time but have not looked very hard. Could they both be correct: Is it possible there was more than one infrastructure project where the same kind of pipes were used? 

[wagonman]

The 'new' GWR gasworks at Swindon was built in 1876, extended in 1888 and 1896, with a large new gas holder being added in 1907. I'm not aware of any major works in 1910. The laying of gas mains to outlying areas like Wootton Bassett was the work of the 'civilian' gas companies and was mostly complete before 1900, restarting after the Great War as consolidation in the industry picked up pace. The Works expanded greatly under Churchward but the need for gas mains was limited as the new shops were powered and lit by that new fangled electricity.

 

I can't think of any project in Swindon that would need quantities of large bore piping after 1903; my knowledge is far from exhaustive though.

 

 

[Compound2632]

Two more of the 4-plankers have gained identities:

 

 

The ABS wagon is No. 63499 of Lot 98, the number being @richbrummitt's reading of the runner wagon in the Vaster Road photo. The tare weight is taken from the nearest-numbered wagon I could find where it was legible, 64493 of Lot 122. As this wagon will be empty and unsheeted, it has the privilege of using up the last of my To Carry and Tare transfers.

 

The wagon with the cut-down O4 sides has become No. 45872 of old series Lot 499. I'm fairly sure wagons of that vintage were built without door stops and just a single door bang plate on the brake side, with the two short, widely-separated door stops and corresponding square bang plates being an early 20th century addition. The examples I've found in photos were the number can be distinguished are all fairly early examples: 45180 (os Lot 462), 45964 (os Lot 509), 41340 (os Lot 573), 49625 (os Lot 577). I've simply picked one that uses some digits that I hadn't made much use of before, looking at my transfer sheet!

 

I've got one more unopened Coopercraft O5 kit but next I think I need to focus on wagons with cast plates until the transfer situation improves. Plus of course there's weathering and sheeting.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Compound2632

[Worsdell forever]

A little Midland wagon question please if I may? I'm refurbishing a Slaters Cattle wagon and was wondering about the brakes. At the moment it has independent brake shoes (on both sides) and twin Vs. The photo in Midland Wagons appears to show no cross shaft, this could mean independent or one side. which is correct?

 

Thanks.

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

A little Midland wagon question please if I may? I'm refurbishing a Slaters Cattle wagon and was wondering about the brakes. At the moment it has independent brake shoes (on both sides) and twin Vs. The photo in Midland Wagons appears to show no cross shaft, this could mean independent or one side. which is correct?

 

I've not given the Slaters cattle wagon very much thought as it's the 1905 version, so after my period. Looking in Midland Wagons, there are two drawings, Drg. 2242 for construction from 1905 and Drg. 3256 from 1911. Wagons to the 1905 drawing were undoubtedly built with brakes on one side only [plate 253]. The 1911 drawing introduces both-side brakes - the date coincides with the BoT requirement for such - the Midland Railway Study Centre has placed a copy of this drawing online. If I've read it right, this shows independent brakes on each side, with double V-hangers and no cross-shaft. I think this is what most of the LMS and BR era photos in Midland Wagons show. As Essery says, it's likely that the earlier cattle wagons were gradually given both-side brakes; I would expect these also to be independent, as that would be the simplest arrangement. The only exception is the photo of the fitted wagon.

 

How do the cattle cope with the Rosedale incline?