More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

I've rebuilt the end windows, including the cills and inner frames:

 

 

The transoms are 0.030" x 0.040" strip, thinways facing, with 0.020" x 0.010" strip on top; the latter is also used for the inner frames. I'll have to sllep on this, tidy it up a bit, then see how it looks with primer...

 

I added transoms in the same way to the partition windows, along with boarding over the blank "window" in the door:

 

 

I've left myself with a challenge for the glazing - individual panes cut to size? I've read of Klear being used as a glazing material; does Humbrol clear gloss varnish, alleged to be a Klear subsititute, work for this too? 

 

This photo also shows the verandah diagonal bracing minus the offending angle.

[Rail-Online]

I have used the liquid glazing and never been happy with it.  It is never quite flat and light reflecting off it always looks wrong.  I would recommend individual panes.......

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

I have used the liquid glazing and never been happy with it.  It is never quite flat and light reflecting off it always looks wrong.  I would recommend individual panes.......

 

Tony recommends eight individual squares of pain... 

[Compound2632]

Next, the verandah sandboxes - replacing the transverse bench with what I understand are incorrect sandboxes for an AA3 at any stage in its career with the pair of corner benches with the sandboxes under the lids, as seen in the photo of the Crewe-allocated van No. 17359. First a double mastectomy:

 

 

... followed by more plastic surgery. One little problem is that the cylindrical socket for the screw that holds the interior to the underframe (thereby clamping the ballast weight in place) is hidden under the transverse bench. The screw is only about 4 mm long, so the cylinder could in principle be cut right back to floor level, although I felt this would leave it rather weak. I've left it protruding about 1 mm. It's just behind the brake standard, so I'm hoping it won'y be very visible.

 

I cut the two ends of the bench back to 5 mm, blanked off the sides, added an extra bit of floor, and then topped out with a rectangle of 0.020" Plastikard and then 0.040" x 0.010" Microstrip to represent the boards just visible in the photo of No. 17539:

 

 

... unfortunately not showing up to well in this photo. I've also patched the gap in the footboard backboard, cutting it square before adding a piece of 0.020" x 0.080" strip, with an extra backing piece overlapping the backboard either side, tucked out of sight. 2 mm is too deep for the backboard but gave me something to grip while positioning the piece - the excess, on the underside, was trimmed off once the joint was fully set.

 

There's really only the handrails to go, before painting. I'm in two minds about buffers. It's not just a case of drilling out the square holes in the headstocks to take a 2 mm diameter cast buffer guide; the plastic buffer guides hold the body and underframe together. So I think cast buffers would have to have their locating lugs filed to the same rectangular section.

[Northroader]

I’ve used this stuff to fix clear plastic sheet glazing down to plastikard bodies, which it does quite well, as it dries clear with a good bond and doesn’t cloud the glaze, although it’s best to wipe the surplus away before it dries. It’s also supposed to be able to be used to form a clear film in a frame, although I’ve never tried this, so Tony’s comments could possibly apply to this as well. You can find it in model aircraft shops, although Eileen’s may have it. No connection with the makers.

[Compound2632]

Delux Materials have a good reputation. They're local to our club; we had one of them round one evening. I kept my hands reasonably firmly in my pockets - one could easily have been seduced into spending large sums with them.

[Guy Rixon]

I tried liquid-PVA glazing in an N-gauge coach. It worked moderately well for the small windows --- door drop-lights and lavatories --- and very badly for the large, picture windows. In the latter, the imperfect transparency was more noticeable and there was an ugly meniscus. I suspect that the maximum, practical size of aperture is around 3mm square for PVA glazing.

 

 

[Guy Rixon]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Delux Materials have a good reputation. They're local to our club; we had one of them round one evening. I kept my hands reasonably firmly in my pockets - one could easily have been seduced into spending large sums with them.

Deluxe card-glue has the magical ability to glue acrylic glazing-strip directly to brass, provided that the brass has developed a patina.

[Regularity]

On 11/05/2020 at 21:00, Compound2632 said:

I've read of Klear being used as a glazing material; does Humbrol clear gloss varnish, alleged to be a Klear subsititute, work for this too? 

I've read of it being used as an adhesive for glazing material, and also as varnish to give it a glass like finish, but not as a glazing material in itself.

I have used PVA-based material (followed by varnish to seal it) for round windows, but there is a slight meniscus effect around the edges. Had no luck with rectangular. 

That might be down to my technique, of course!

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Regularity said:

and also as varnish to give it a glass like finish

 

I did toy with the idea of making the windows blank and varnishing to give the look of glass, as the interior is dark, until I saw one photo where the windows at the other end were very clearly visible through the cabin.

 

All this talk of Delux Materials reminded me that I do have some of their Plastic Magic that I have now applied to the footboard patch, as the joins there were proving a little weak with d-limonene or MekPak. I've also filed the taper in the ends of the footboards and drilled holes for the vertical handrails. So not entirely idle.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Handrails are from 0.33 mm brass wire. These represent the early style of individual horizontal and vertical handrails. Russ' article says these are thought to have been made of ¾" bar - this would be only 0.025 mm wire; I don't have any that fine and in any case I think it would be a bit too fragile:

 

 

I've put the van together again for a trial fitting, using the original buffers - I had to file back the tails of the handrails on the inside of the body in several places where they fouled the interior moulding. A more elevated angle shows the verandah interior (without the brake standard) and also the tapering of the footboards:

 

 

This was taken from a bit too close up so there is some distortion of the perspective. I think, compared to the Crewe van, the sandbox covers are a bit too short.

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Compound2632
Typos corrected

[Compound2632]

I meant to add, I need to find out what shape of drawhook plate I want from my supply of various shapes of etched plates.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

 

[Mikkel]

Very nice work on the Toad,  Stephen.

 

With all that GWR going on, you'll be longing for some MR Opens I'm sure: https://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/getobject?rnum=L1256

 

That site is recommended by the way (look under "Stories" or search images).

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

With all that GWR going on, you'll be longing for some MR Opens I'm sure: https://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/getobject?rnum=L1256

 

Absolutely. One of S.W.A. Newton's collection, I see. He's most famous for photos of the Great Central's London Extension under construction - one sees quite a few Midland wagons in those. The Midland must have made a pretty penny out of the London Extension, conveying materials to site. Likewise out of the Great Western at Moor Street. 

 

In the Trent photo, fourth wagon along, partly hidden by a pile of bricks, has its brakes this side - although the brakes are hidden by the bricks, the door bang plate can be seen.

[Penlan]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One of S.W.A. Newton's collection, I see. He's most famous for photos of the Great Central's London Extension under construction....

An excellent book by L.T.C.Rolt, 'The making of a Railway'.
I believe it's been republished a time or two, I see I have the original 1971 edition.
So I'm not sure where you could buy it now, bar Ebay etc.,
I like these types of book, and thus 'The Meon Valley Railway, Part 1:....' 

also an excellent book for construction details.

[Lecorbusier]

In case this has not been mentioned ... Knuckles of Sparkshot fame is now producing wagon bodies that might be worth a look at ... sorry if this is old news to all but me

 

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparkshotcustomcreationsscc?section=4mm+Rolling+Stock&s=0

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

In case this has not been mentioned ... Knuckles of Sparkshot fame is now producing wagon bodies that might be worth a look at ... sorry if this is old news to all but me

 

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparkshotcustomcreationsscc?section=4mm+Rolling+Stock&s=0

 

Yes, I had some correspondence with @Knuckles about the Midland bodies, which if I recall correctly are reduced from some S scale ones he had done for a client, working to the client's specification. Unfortunately his client seems not to have made use of all the information publicly available, leading to a number of howlers. It must have spent Knuckles a lot of time adding all those bolt ends and nuts on the inside of the D299, when inspection of the drawing (along with photos) shows that these were countersunk with heads flush with the ironwork and hence practically invisible. Knuckles has produced some excellent stuff but I'm afraid in this case there are considerably cheaper alternatives that produce more accurate representations of these wagons.

[Compound2632]

I've primed the Great Western brake van and given it a first coat of well-thinned Precision Great Western freight stock grey. I'm not happy.

 

My understanding is that pre-1904, brake vans were a very dark grey; what's not evident is whether this was the same as post-1904 grey which, ex-works, was also, I understand, very dark. The Precision paint is a dark grey but, it seems to me, has a blueish tinge which is at variance with the paint technology of the day. I'm inclined to move on to black let down with a little white.

 

Opinions, please...

[Knuckles]

Regarding the countersunk heads I did make it clear to you we countersunk the 1st heads on the 1st wagon and after they were printed it was decided by the client for the next 3 to make them stick out a little to at least have some representation of them for paint to grab too.  

 

People can always nick them off, 2 second job.

 

For the few slightly thick details it's a matter of pandering to Shapeways' printing tolerances and seeing detail rather than it being undetectable.

 

Could always obtain one and complete it (nick the heads off if needed) then you could judge it more accurately.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Knuckles

[Compound2632]

@Knuckles, fair comment to my brisk review. I tried to emphasise that my criticisms were of your client's choices - there is always a danger of modelling what one thinks should be there rather than what close observation shows is there.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[Tricky]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've primed the Great Western brake van and given it a first coat of well-thinned Precision Great Western freight stock grey. I'm not happy.

 

My understanding is that pre-1904, brake vans were a very dark grey; what's not evident is whether this was the same as post-1904 grey which, ex-works, was also, I understand, very dark. The Precision paint is a dark grey but, it seems to me, has a blueish tinge which is at variance with the paint technology of the day. I'm inclined to move on to black let down with a little white.

 

Opinions, please...

Just jumping in here with my two penny-worth; I tend to think that just black and white gives a blueish tinge to the resultant grey; certainly under LED lights, which is why it’s my preferred mix for slate which so often has the same blueish tinge naturally, sometimes even a purple. Might I suggest a touch of mid brown to warm it up a bit? Don’t over do it though or it turns a sickly green!!

[richbrummitt]

There was a row of recently painted vans at Didcot last time I was there (Christmas for TTTE) and they have a noticeable blue/green tinge. I've observed this elsewhere too. Is this due to modern paint technology, or intended?

 

The paint swatches in GWW 1st edition don't include wagon grey. They will be somewhat unreliable by now since the colours of swatches change with time and these date from the 70s. I think they are better than the ones in GWW 3rd edition where the colours are printed, though they seem to agree. The later edition does present many more colours, including wagon grey. It also says that wagon grey was one colour that was mixed on site rather than supplied to spec. and was produced from black and white paints. Maybe it was the only colour so created?

 

 I've used Citadel Adeptus battlegrey in the past, which I think is now called Eshin grey. These do not have a blue tinge. I've also used Tamiya tank grey, which is available as a rattle can. I hoped to get some variation in colours between wagons by using different manufacturer's paints but I cannot tell the difference between these. Citadel now do a colour called Dark reaper, which looks to have some blue/green to it and I'm going to try on my next wagon painting session. Beyond that I will be mixing in a little white or lighter grey to different pots to create some variation. I did finish one Mink F in a mid grey (Citadel mechanicus standard grey) but it looks very odd and too light to me, even for a faded example.

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

There was a row of recently painted vans at Didcot last time I was there (Christmas for TTTE) and they have a noticeable blue/green tinge. I've observed this elsewhere too. Is this due to modern paint technology, or intended?

 

Indeed - how reliable is a recent coat of paint on a preserved vehicle. Possibly a question for @Castle.

 

22 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

It also says that wagon grey was one colour that was mixed on site rather than supplied to spec. and was produced from black and white paints. Maybe it was the only colour so created?

 

This was, as far as I have been able to discover, the standard way of mixing up wagon grey of any shade - white lead with an appropriate admixture of black - where the black is usually a byproduct of some other process, e.g. lamp black.

 

The other point is the suggestion that pre-1904 brake vans were an even darker grey than the later wagon grey. I forget / have not tracked down where I read that.

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Knuckles, fair comment to my brisk review. I tried to emphasise that my criticisms were of your client's choices - there is always a danger of modelling what one thinks should be there rather than what close observation shows is there.

Good to hear: impresses that you seem to know all about the discussions and level of close observation that took place, despite you not being involved. Is mind-reading or possibly email snooping yet another skill where you outstrip the rest of us? I do so look forward to all of your models being perfect representations of every visible detail. If, heaven forfend, one of your wagons derailed, would we see every part of the underframe correctly modelled? Can we see the leaf springs moving as the wagons pass over a prototypical poor rail joint? What wheel profile do you use? The real thing divided by 76.2, or the P4 profile which has an S Scale flange width?

 

Since you live in a glasshouse, stop throwing stones.