More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Welchester]

4 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

 Great to see the Leek & Manifold in this photo. Cannot really help with the wagon as I don't have my books with me but it has the looks of a D299.

 

The caption on the photo is incorrect as it's Waterhouses exchange goods yard not Hulme End. Too many tracks for HE.

 

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, this one is a D299 - another number for the list... I suspect the entire 56xxx number series was D299 - at least, the only counter-example I've found is a D607 12 ton wagon, almost certainly taking the number of a withdrawn D299. The very worn state of 56741 here, c. 1930, illustrates my point about D299s not surviving much beyond this date - I've not come across a photo of one in 1936 livery. It's at least 30 years old, probably more like 40.

 

How is the 7 mm kit to build? I presume it avoids some of the faults of the 4 mm kit, with its designed-in misalignment of solebars and headstocks?

 

Thank you, both. The kit's gone together fairly well. The only faults are the overlarge axle boxes, which require a bit of hacking, and the lack of internal detail.

[Western Star]

18 hours ago, Bishop of Welchester said:

The kit's gone together fairly well. The only faults are the overlarge axle boxes, which require a bit of hacking, and the lack of internal detail.

Please tell us more about the axleboxes.

 

Thank you, Graham

[Dave Hunt]

Concur with the Bishop; I've got a dozen 7mm Slaters' D299s to build to S7 so any constructional tips and guidance on corrections would be very welcome.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

On 04/06/2020 at 13:27, Bishop of Welchester said:

The only faults are the overlarge axle boxes, which require a bit of hacking, and the lack of internal detail.

 

I've not handled one of these in the flesh. From photographs, I couldn't comment on whether the axleboxes are too big but I have noticed that, like the 4 mm version, the fixing lugs extend all the way back to the axleguard, so an obvious improvement is to trim these back as I do in 4 mm, as seen on the right here, along with an MJT cast axlebox for comparison:

 

 

The moulded axleboxes are 0.5 mm too deep, because the solebar is too thick - 2 mm rather than 1.5 mm. Presumably the 7 mm version has scale thickness solebars. Does it have etched axleguards?

 

From the photo on Slaters website, I note that solebar details that are wrongly placed on the 4 mm model such as numberplate, builder's plate, and load/ticket plate are in the right places, though the label clip should be nearer the centre - just to the left of the V-hanger, on the brake side, and the equivalent place on the non-brake side. 

 

As I've said before, some of these deficiencies of the 4 mm kit I live with, whilst others I improve - pseudo-finescale, not really (ahem) MRJ-standard modelling.

 

I'm almost tempted to buy the 7 mm kit to build as a mantlepiece ornament.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Regularity]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As I've said before, some of these deficiencies of the 4 mm kit I live with, whilst others I improve - pseudo-finescale,

I don't think that's pseudo-finescale at all. I would say that's exactly what fine scale is: getting as close to the prototype as you can, and accepting that some things will fall short of exactitude.

We could argue that fine scale is "pseudo-exactscale", for which point of view you have my wholehearted support.

[Welchester]

10 hours ago, Western Star said:

Please tell us more about the axleboxes.

 

Thank you, Graham

 

The bearing is pushed through a hole in the W iron, then the axlebox is supposed to push over the end of the bearing. Unfortunately the top of the axlebox won't fit under the spring without surgery.

 

I hope this makes sense. I didn't think to take any photographs of the construction.

[Nile]

I have one of these in my kit pile.

[Compound2632]

Weird. The numberplate is erroneously on the left there.

 

Even easier than in the 4 mm version to remove the excess material behind the fixing lugs on the axlebox there.

 

Is there a good cast whitemetal Ellis 10A axlebox / spring unit in 7 mm scale, like the MJT one in 4 mm scale?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I've been doing bits and pieces of painting - steady progress on several fronts but nothing presentable yet. I have, though, been pondering the sheet bars on Great Western diagram O2 open wagons. Here's a crop from a photo of Vastern Road goods yard, Reading, c. 1905:

 

 

From this, it's clear that the sheet bar on O2 No. 29305 (?) is set at the same height above rail level as on an O4 (the wagon behind) but the pivot point is set lower - by about one plank. The photographs in Atkins, of O2 No. 29301 (with cast numberplates ad 25" GW) and O10 No. 29617 (photographed in 1920) [Atkins, 3rd edition, plates 387 and 388] together with a photo of O10 No. 78499 (also with cast numberplates and 25" GW) all seem to show the pivot set higher; two of these are side views but the photo of No. 29617 is at a bit of an angle, so it can be seen that the pivot is about half a plank higher than on an O4. On the O10, this makes room for the brake pipe.

 

The Coopercraft O2 has the pivot in the higher position:

 

 

In either case, the Parkside sheet bar upright (as seen on No. 76081) will be too short...

 

No. 29305, if that's it's number, must be from Lot 496. Of the other wagons mentioned, O2 No. 29301 and O10 No. 29617 must also be from Lot 496 and No. 78499 from Lot 522, if the numbering information given in Atkins is correct. My O2 already has plates on the sides identifying it as No. 74810 of Lot 486.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Over a week since I posted any progress. I've been going cross-eyed applying Archer "rivet" transfers!

 

It all got a bit too much so I did get the 50 W temperature-controlled iron out:

 

 

This is a 51L/Wizard kit for a G&SWR Diagram 10 8 / 10 ton high sided open, a type built from c. 1900, according to the instruction sheet. The G&SWR being a close ally of the Midland, it is possible that such a wagon might have shown up in the Birmingham area, delivering a consignment of Singer sewing machines or other such Glaswegian heavy machinery. There was an accident at Gretna, 14 May 1901, in which a double-headed G&SW goods train from Carlisle to Glasgow (College) ran into a derailed portion of an up Caledonian goods train from Gushetfaulds (where?). There was considerable destruction of stock but thankfully little more than bruising of the train crews. The list of damaged stock gives a pretty clear idea of the railway politics of the day: the damaged vehicles in the G&SW train are all G&SW or Midland; those in the Caledonian train are from that company, the North Eastern (busy cutting out its East Coast partner for Tyneside - Glasgow traffic), LNWR of course, L&Y, North Staffs, and the Great Western. The damaged G&SW vehicles are mostly covered goods wagons; unfortunately I believe the Diagram 28 type offered by 51L/Wizard dates from after my c. 1902 period. 

 

The photo on Railways Archive shows Smellie bogie No. 57 (153 Class of 1886) down the bank - note the curious extended smokebox. Ahrons says that No. 70, built 1888, and one or two others, were so equipped but he did not know "how long No. 70 remained the proud possessor of this wart on its chest [...] but some years later the excrescence had evidently been cauterised". The Heffer reprint of Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century has a photo of No. 89 of 1889 so equipped; No. 57 is a (or the) third. Up on the embankment, somewhat higgledy-piggeldy, we have, from left to right: possibly a LNWR 4-plank open (D4); a Caledonian van - from the long horizontal bar on the doors and the smooth external boarding, possibly a meat van; a sheeted Caledonian open; NSR 2-plank open No. 2781, a pair of L&Y D1 1-plank opens (note the brake levers on both sides, at the same end, and the characteristic narrow V-hanger); and another 1-plank open, possibly another L&Y D1, or it could be a LNW D1.

 

The kit is one of several from 51L/Wizard that I've been looking out for for a while - never in their cast kit box at exhibitions and shown as out-of-stock on the website. I recently spotted that they are now in stock, so snapped one up.

 

In soldering up the kit, I chose to put appearance before propriety. In accordance with the instructions, I soldered two of the axleguard units to one solebar/side casting; in doing so I made sure that they were correctly aligned with the crown plates etc. on the solebar. The sides and ends were then soldered up nice and square. When I came to add the axleguard units on the second side, I discovered that with them lined up with the crown plates, the axles aren't square on:

 

 

Fortunately, thanks to the tolerant nature of 00, it runs sweetly, negotiating reverse curves through pointwork at speed!

 

A quick browse of HMRS photos of G&SW goods wagons shows that black ironwork was the order of the day around the turn of the century (and at other periods), at least for official photos. I'm not aware of having seen a photo of a wagon in traffic around this date - or at all. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Amazing that it can run, but I suppose it helps that the axles are equally misaligned. 

 

I had a look at the stock on the CR train at Gretna. The number of non-CR stock is a little surprising for 1901, isn't it? I tried to look up what kind of wagon GWR 21070 was, but no luck yet. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Amazing that it can run, but I suppose it helps that the axles are equally misaligned. 

 

I had a look at the stock on the CR train at Gretna. The number of non-CR stock is a little surprising for 1901, isn't it? I tried to look up what kind of wagon GWR 21070 was, but no luck yet. 

 

 

 

Re. the Caley train, this is almost certainly all traffic for England, or English wagons being returned empty. I think it's significant that the only sheeted wagon - i.e. definitely loaded - is Caledonian. I suppose if it was possible to consign a load to, say, Bolton, on a returning L&Y wagon that might be done but that would rely on chance rather than planning.

 

According to my notes from Atkins, GW Nos. 21001-21143 were 2-plank wagons, part of old series Lot 53.

[Buhar]

Hello Stephen,

 

I wonder if that accident is alone in taking place on both sides of a national border.

 

Smellie's Big Bogies were still fairly new in 1901 although had been displaced from prestige workings by newer Manson engines.  They were a star that shone bright but brief.  I think No 57 was at Dumfries then, so it wouldn't have been a long trip home.  I don't know the thinking behind the extended smokebox, presumably to do with draughting.  There were four of them fitted and they lasted until 1906.  They were easily removed, so their continuance probably means they didn't do any harm, except to appearance.

 

Like most companies at the time the G&SWR didn't have a lot of covered wagons, just 7% of the fleet, so the make up of that train was unusual. Livery was as you suggest, quite a light grey with black ironwork, although I have seen later photographs where the ironwork appears to be the same as the body colour which then looks to be a darker grey.

 

A gushet is Scots for a triangular bit of land or building and fauld is related to fold, again in respect of describing land.  Gushetfaulds was the main Caledonian goods facility on the South Side of Glasgow, very close to Polmadie shed.  The site is now spanned by the M74 and part is now a bus garage.  

 

Singer's factory was just north of Dumbarton in the disputed lands between the NBR and the Caley out towards Loch Lomond, so the G&SWR wouldn't be getting traffic from there.  My Mum's family going back a bit lived near Drymen and every family round there had a Singer sewing machine as the staff discounts were reputably very good (or the security was rubbish).  If not sewing machines, there were plenty of manufacturing towns served by the G&SWR, plus the possibility of imported goods from any one of a dozen ports to justify your wonky wagon.

 

Alan

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Buhar
a word out of place

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Smellie's Big Bogies were still fairly new in 1901 although had been displaced from prestige workings by newer Manson engines.  They were a star that shone bright but brief.  I think No 57 was at Dumfries then, so it wouldn't have been a long trip home. 

 

Driver David Boyd does say that he had worked up (down?) to Carlisle with a fish train from Dumfries, so that fits.

 

21 minutes ago, Buhar said:

A gushet is Scots for a triangular bit of land or building

 

Presumably the same word as English gusset, a triangular reinforcing piece in clothing or steelwork. I'm struggling to see a connection to modern French guichet, a counter or wicket, but there might be a medieaval French meaning in the background.

 

24 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Singer's factory was just north of Dumbarton in the disputed lands between the NBR and the Caley out towards Loch Lomond, so the G&SWR wouldn't be getting traffic from there. 

 

Ah well, perhaps it'll justify a North British wagon! The Singer factory stuck in my mind from a visit to the old Glasgow Museum of Science & Industry. Do I remember correctly that the employees were all or mostly women? There was also an automobile factory - also Singer? - that was all women workers and managed by a daughter of the family - such light engineering clearly being women's work to the contemporary Glaswegian mind. 

 

28 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Like most companies at the time the G&SWR didn't have a lot of covered wagons, just 7% of the fleet, so the make up of that train was unusual. Livery was as you suggest, quite a light grey with black ironwork, although I have seen later photographs where the ironwork appears to be the same as the body colour which then looks to be a darker grey.

 

 

A similar percentage to the Midland by the Great War, rising from under 2% around the turn of the century - which makes the proportion of covered wagons in that train all the more surprising. I think it's reasonable to assume that these wagons were working home from England and weren't just for handling traffic originating at Carlisle, unless there was a very large amount of small consignments being sorted and transhipped there. There's a photograph of a LNWR Class A 0-8-0 on Shap c. 1900 with a long train that also has a high proportion of covered wagons, so it may have something to do with the kind of goods that was being traded between the two nations at the time. It does look as though I ought to be able to justify one GSWR covered van of 19th-century design, if I had the information!

 

Thanks also for the photo PM'd confirming black ironwork in traffic.

[Regularity]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A similar percentage to the Midland by the Great War, rising from under 2% around the turn of the century - which makes the proportion of covered wagons in that train all the more surprising.

That percentage refers to the total wagon stock, a lot of which will have been in use on shorter hauls and mineral traffic. It is highly likely that valuable goods being moved over longer distances are more likely to be transported in covered vans, partly to protect the contents from inclement weather, but also because it will reduce pilfering.

So, whilst the exact proportion might appear to be high, we should expect to see (much?) higher proportions of covered vans in such traffic.
Statistical averages, when you get to the size of numbers relating to wagon stock of a large company, are gross generalisations and very unreliable when looking at specifics. The statistics needed here are the specific observations of the particular traffic flow. This is particularly true of British railways prior to the abolition of the common carrier status, as there had to be sufficient spare general purpose wagons lying around “spare” to be used in case of unexpected requirements, and despite the best efforts of the railway companies to make more efficient use of wagons via demurrage charges, wagons often served as temporary mobile warehouses.

 

As a trite example, roughly 1 in 5 people in the UK are under the age of 20, yet if you were to visit a secondary school (in non-Covid19 times!) during lesson time you would be surprised to find 4 adults for every child...

[Compound2632]

Yes, absolutely. That's where the accident reports that list damaged stock are such a rare and valuable resource. There are very few 19th/early 20th century photos showing a whole goods train - that Class A on Shap is one of maybe only a dozen or so I know. There are next to no photos of the rear of goods trains at any period! The reports don't necessarily list the stock in the order in which it was marshalled - note how for the Caley goods train, the listing is all the CR wagons, the NER, LNWR, L&Y and finally the two one-offs, NSR and GW. On the other hand, the G&SW list has the two company's wagons intermingled, so might be the actual order, though it's three wagons short - presumably these undamaged vehicles were at the rear of the train with the brake van, also not mentioned. 28 out of 44 wagons are listed for the CR train; three of the CR wagons are described as "box" so the implication seems to be that most of the vehicles in that train were opens - or at least in the middle of the train from the 18th vehicle onwards. 

 

As well as the type of wagons in a particular class of goods train, @Dave John has drawn attention to their marshalling, specifically the instruction in the CR rules that covered goods wagons or other tall vehicles (or presumably, high loads) should not be marshalled next to the brake van, where they would obstruct the guard's forward view. In the list for the G&SW train, the last three wagons listed are opens, so perhaps the same rule was being applied, though we don't know what the remaining wagons next to the brake were. In the Sharnbrook accident of 1909, the first 18 vehicles of 24 in the up express goods train were covered wagons of various types, all with AVB, but the unfitted tail seems to have been made up of opens. The Midland seems to have been a bit stingy in provision of covered goods wagons until mass-production started c. 1901 but even as late as 1907 they fobbed Carrs of Carlisle off with a batch of vacuum-fitted opens with sheet rail. 

 

In the last two decades of the 19th century, the Midland built just over 2,200 covered goods wagons; in the same period, the Great Western built about 6,000. There does seem to be some evidence that the LNWR had the edge over the Midland on express goods services in this period, though it may just be Euston propaganda. 

[Buhar]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 but even as late as 1907 they fobbed Carrs of Carlisle off with a batch of vacuum-fitted opens with sheet rail. 

 

That sort of behaviour from Derby just takes the biscuit!

 

Alan 

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

the LNWR had the edge over the Midland... ...though it may just be Euston propaganda

Typical Derby response to the truth.

[Compound2632]

Fathers' Day, so I've made a start on both my presents. My younger son, being more organised for once, got me a boxed set of Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads; my elder son got me a 51L/Wizard whitemetal kit (that formed part of my recent order...):

 

 

There's a bit of a theme going on here! Plenty of these in this photo @Mikkel posted at the start of the year:

This wagon allegedly needs split-spoke wheels but my last pair are now trapped under the G&SWR D10 open, now painted and awaiting lettering, or rather, a decision on the size of the lettering:

 

 

I drew up the number and load plates in Coreldraw:

 

 

The G&SW lettering and the wagon number are Clarendon BT, with the W tweaked to remove the serif on the middle apex - as I draw the numberplates out at 1 mm = 1" and then reduce to 1/3, it's vital to convert the letters to objects anyway. The plates are based on various examples in the HMRS photographic collection. The choice of number is pot-luck: the instruction give five sample numbers, 8414 lies in the middle of the range and avoids digits that in Clarendon BT are significantly different from those on the plates 3 in particular: round-topped in Clarendon BT, flat-topped on the plates.

 

I haven't been keeping up with my lockdown post-a-day lately but other progress includes finishing the bolt-heads on the Pelsall wagon, using the Archer rivet transfers:

 

 

I ran into trouble here. A spray coat of Humbrol matt varnish highlighted rather than hid the transfer film, so I had to overpaint in black. The transfer film still shows around the lettering - more prominent in the photo than in the flesh. I've realised I need to add a large nut on the top corner-plates - visible in the film. I have to do the same for the Drake & Mount wagons - on those, it is clearly a bolt on the tapped end of the internal diagonal ironwork; on this wagon it's not so clear exactly how it is constructed - it may be the end of an inside top corner plate, as on a Midland ex-PO wagon @airnimal built recently:

The Pelsall wagon has lost its split-spoke wheels to the G&SWR wagon...

 

I discovered that Fox Transfers do the early style G.W.R lettering, so I've ordered some along with SER lettering for the express coal wagon, some of their LB&SCRY transfers (unlike POWSides, they provide the Y with every set of letters, so the sheet does for both styles without limitation), and also (@TurboSnail take note) two sets of SER brake van transfers...

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[TurboSnail]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

two sets of SER brake van transfers...

 

I've been trying to sum up the courage to do those handrails for ages...

[Mikkel]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I discovered that Fox Transfers do the early style G.W.R lettering

 

I'll be interested to hear what you think. It is certainly a cheaper way since there are more on one sheet than the HMRS one. Problem is there is a notable size difference (Fox are bigger). I haven't had a chance to examine which is closest to the prototype yet, but in any case it creates a path dependency problem.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I'll be interested to hear what you think. It is certainly a cheaper way since there are more on one sheet than the HMRS one. Problem is there is a notable size difference (Fox are bigger). I haven't had a chance to examine which is closest to the prototype yet, but in any case it creates a path dependency problem.

 

I haven't tried the HMRS sheet - not wanting a load of post-1904 GW transfers! I was very happy with the appearance of the BGS dry transfers but I've run out of everything but digits and it's currently listed as OOS.

 

Fox's MR transfers are way off. The HMRS ones are good being based on the same Peter Chatham artwork as the sheets that come with Slaters kits, although even there, there is a discrepancy between their 12" Rs - the Slaters sheet is correct, the HMRS sheet wrong.

[Il Grifone]

On 07/05/2020 at 14:46, Siberian Snooper said:

How about using lead foil for sheets,  I believe that the military modellers use the stuff, what it's like for painting I couldn't say, but it should fold and crease ok and is waterproof.

 

 

 

It comes as a seal on wine bottles!    Probably not enough for a wagon sheet though.   

 

I can confirm the puddles on sheets having seen them myself. I would use clear plastic for the puddle and cut the sheet around it. Tricky, but worth the trouble.

 

Sorry for the delay but I've only seen it now.

 

 

 

[Dave John]

Just had a look at my GSWR wagon, made from the same kit years ago. 

 

There is a slight misalignment of the solebars, same as yours. I always cut the W iron /spring/ axle box off with a razor saw then rub away the whitemetal W iron to just leave the spring/axle box. These are then attached to my usual rocking/fixed brass W irons. 

 

What I seem to have done in this case is fitted the W Iron so as to have a slight misalignment on both sides. The crown plate is about 0.5 mm out with respect to the W iron both sides, but since it is across the depth of the solebar it is only noticeable if you view the wagon side on. 

 

 

Side on . The RH end is the rocking one, sits square when the wagon is the right way up. 

 

The tabs on the fixed part of the W Iron can be given a bit of a tweak to achieve the best sit of the W irons. 

 

Might get round to some proper transfers one day......

[Compound2632]

Thanks, @Dave John. Prompted by your blog post:

I'm thinking of using the MJT internal bearing units. The axles will be parallel but slightly out of alignment with the axleguards on both sides, the axleguards having been soldered up in line with the crown plates.

 

I have to rip the MJT units out of my Midland tariff van and try again with larger bearing area too.