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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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On 27/06/2020 at 09:01, Compound2632 said:

 

Very impressive! I clicked through to Facebook and went back and forth a few images to discover that these are P4 not S7! I note the clips for the capping strip, replacing the original screws into the top plank.

 

 

I've never before seen the suggestion that Lot 919 was built at Woolwich Arsenal rather than Litchurch Lane! If you can discover where you came across that I would be very interested. Also if you have any photographic evidence for survival of Lot 919 into the 1950s. D302 wagons would be between 30 and 40 years old in 1951.

 

I honestly can't remember where I read the War Department connection to lot 919...it was when I was doing research into MR wagons about 10 years ago (I did have a google in case it was on line and came up with this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-51603605 ...which asks more questions than it answers!)

 

Thanks for your kind comments, I did build a Slaters D299 wagon (with some modifications) from the 1917 batch based on a photograph I'd seen from the 1950s...today I'd make my own plain MR axleboxes.

 

My favorite place to go wagon hunting is on this national website (its free)...and surf around the country from above...this is Teesside from 1951... https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW038879

 

Also some pre-grouping wagons eking out a living in the early 50s, An LNWR Diagram 84 open, An NER C10 open and a North Staffs open...(all scratchbuilt)

151376378_63C49BED-8000-41BE-9FDD-32D8352EAE01(2).jpeg.3b337b5ad18c25200316715769443813.jpeg2139697427_CB194735-18D6-45C8-836A-C3095A383B2C(1).jpeg.2ce2b4923d78ffed5c029dad73c13f96.jpeg687669494_D5207060-1C6E-40F4-A9C6-C73BEE9872A1(1).jpeg.4624a702c9b2be88521e240b4f9944ee.jpeg1585344843_7277929C-BA22-42A9-AAE4-7AA500E4D98B(1).jpeg.52f4e165b43fdbeab58985b3276b3315.jpeg

 

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Superb craftsmanship!

 

56 minutes ago, Axlebox said:

I honestly can't remember where I read the War Department connection to lot 919...it was when I was doing research into MR wagons about 10 years ago (I did have a google in case it was on line and came up with this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-51603605 ...which asks more questions than it answers!)

 

There is more on that wagon on the Knotty Coach Trust website (scroll down a bit). Looking at its proportions, I'm fairly sure its D302 not D299 (easy enough to verify with a tape measure). They say: "built in Derby Works by the Midland Railway and converted by the British War Department in 1917"; the Lot Book contains no entry for new-built wagons of this type for the War Department, whereas Lot 903 is described as "meat vans for war dept service in France". I suspect the conversion was carried out at Derby rather than at a War Dept works; certainly the photo of WD 37819 is a Derby official. 

 

The wagon in their third photo is a pukka D299 in internal use at the National Shell Filling Factory at Chilwell (the name scrubbed out on the original negative). I came across these in another topic last year:

The D299 wagons and the covered goods wagons (which I think may be the pre-1892 low-roofed variety D353) have presumably been sold to the War Department as they have been re-painted with black ironwork and, at least in the case of the D299, had their Midland numberplates removed.

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1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

For all us sad number-collectors here is a MR Ballast Brake van at St Albans in 1923 with a 'new' number I think?  As there were less than 40 of these there does seem to be a lot of photos of them!

 

That would have been its number all along, just now repainted without the M. prefix. Apart from the number panel, it doesn't look to have been repainted in a while - so is that grubby iron oxide or chemically-blackened grey?

 

There were 98 of these ballast brakes built to drawing 746 between 1888 and 1900 but there were also an unknown number built before the opening of the Litchurch Lane lot book. As discussed somewhere up-thread, these were to drawing 106 of 1874. It would appear that the principal visual distinction is that these earlier ballast brakes had panelled doors, whereas vehicles to drawing 746 had doors with vertical boarding, per 335 in your photograph. From a numerological perspective, that number is interesting as Midland Wagons Plate 383 shows on numbered M.332 - but this is an example with panelled doors. So one might speculate that some of the drawing 746 vehicles were built as replacements for life-expired drawing 106 brakes.

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I know it's not a wagon, but that's the sharp end of an LTSR Whitelegg Baltic away from its home ground. However, I thought they'd left St Albans workings by LMS days.

 

Alan

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3 hours ago, Buhar said:

I know it's not a wagon, but that's the sharp end of an LTSR Whitelegg Baltic away from its home ground. However, I thought they'd left St Albans workings by LMS days.

 

No. 2106.

 

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005) p. 194: "In 1920 they were transferred to Cricklewood ... outstationed at St Albans ... eight engines were considerably in excess of requirements. [Remaining Westinghouse braked engines returned to Plaistow in 1921.] This disposition was then maintained until withdrawal, Nos. 2103, 2104 and 2106 being a familiar sight at St. Pancras for over ten years. Every dog has its day ... in September 1927, V.R. Webster noted No. 2106 at St Pancras on the 6.30pm semi-fast to Leicester! ... would probably have gone as far as Bedford, though this involved a non-stop run to Luton."

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24 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

There are photos of the Baltics being used on coal trains.

 

Op. cit.: "A large number of Kirtley 0-6-0s were loaned to the Railway Operating Division ... in 1917 and as part of the consequential transfers which took place the eight 4-6-4Ts were sent to Wellingborough to assist with coal train working to Cricklewood."

 

Therefore any such photos can be dated to the three-year period before the move to St Albans in 1920.

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How many MR D299 wagons would have been in use in my time period which is late 30s ? Relegated to dept use ?

 

And apart from loco coal did the LMS have large numbers of company coal wagons in use at this time ?

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Hi Everyone,

 

Here is an interesting wagon load I have not observed before caught on the edge of a neg.  It is of course a GW van with twin end ventilators, but there is straw stuffed in the vents (or stuffed on the inside falling out of the vents)  The date is 1948ish and it looks like late winter in the whole neg.  The only thing I could think of is something in the van is very sensitive to cold so an excess of straw has been used.  We tend to forget nowadays how much straw was used for packing (around earthenware pipes, in tea chests, around vegetables, etc etc), it is the natural predecessor to bubble wrap and plastic chips I suppose.    Thoughts anyone?

 

Tony

GW van 1948c Shilton.jpg

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The winter of 1948 was apparently extremely cold (I was only a few months old at the time so this is hearsay) so it could well have been something to do with insulation.

 

Dave

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4 hours ago, dube said:

How many MR D299 wagons would have been in use in my time period which is late 30s ? Relegated to dept use ?

 

Late 30s all but one very late lot between 35 and 55 years old - largely replaced by later designs as discussed in this recent post:

 

4 hours ago, dube said:

And apart from loco coal did the LMS have large numbers of company coal wagons in use at this time ?

 

Although the Midland's D299 wagons, along with the 9,000 of the D351 end-door version, were used for mineral traffic, this was, I believe, largely in response to the policy of buying up sub-standard PO wagons in the 1880s. The supply of company wagons was not enough to keep up with the demand for wagons from the coal industry - much of which spent the Midland's purchase money on new PO wagons meeting the RCH 1887 specification. Establishing that specification and the system of registration was something the Midland was very much involved in as the largest mineral line in the country (apart, possibly, the North Eastern, which went its own way). In the 15 years after the start of the registration scheme in 1887, the Midland registered 24,000 PO wagons.

 

From 1911, along with the building of new merchandise wagons to D302 and then D663A, as discussed in the post I linked back to, the Midland built nearly 16,000 7-plank 12 ton wagons for mineral traffic. The LMS continued this, with over 22,000 12 ton wagons to the RCH 1023 specification built 1924-1930, D1671, the vast majority being built be the wagon trade rather than the company's workshops. I think one can consider these, along with the vast numbers of D1666 5-plank merchandise wagons, as effectively completing the replacement of the 19th-century D299s, along with similar low-capacity 19th century wagons from other LMS constituents. But these numbers of company-owned mineral wagons are dwarfed by the more than 600,000 PO wagons in service during the grouping period. 

 

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10 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The winter of 1948 was apparently extremely cold (I was only a few months old at the time so this is hearsay) so it could well have been something to do with insulation.

 

Dave

 

 

According to my parents,  the winter of '48 was worse than the the winter of' 63 which is the worst one that I have experienced,  when it snowed on Boxing day '62 and it didn't disappear completely until April '63.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

 

According to my parents,  the winter of '48 was worse than the the winter of' 63 which is the worst one that I have experienced,  when it snowed on Boxing day '62 and it didn't disappear completely until April '63.

 

 

 

My parents were married on Boxing Day 1962 - it started snowing while they were in the church. It made for an interesting honeymoon, or so I was led to understand, spent in Bath and Looe - a reflection of their sense of humour, I'm afraid. 

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Are folks getting confused with the winter of 1947? There was a very cold snap in February 1948 particularly in the SE-an earlier beast from the east with plenty of snow and ice.

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2 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Are folks getting confused with the winter of 1947? There was a very cold snap in February 1948 particularly in the SE-an earlier beast from the east with plenty of snow and ice.

 

No, not at all confused. I distinctly don't remember either...

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Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

No, not at all confused. I distinctly don't remember either...

 

Touche! I wasn't even a twinkle in 1947 but I do remember 1962.

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1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

Are folks getting confused with the winter of 1947? There was a very cold snap in February 1948 particularly in the SE-an earlier beast from the east with plenty of snow and ice.

 

When I wrote 'the winter of 1948' I actually meant the winter of 1947/48 when I was 7 or 8 months old. It was, apparently, very cold in the February with temperatures down to about zero Fahrenheit.

 

Dave

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That was nothing compared to the Great Frost of 1683-84. 

 

My favoured modelling period, c. 1902-3, falls in the middle of a couple of decades of relatively mild winters, though 2 February 1901 saw a frosty start with snow lying on the ground in Portsmouth.

The Great Frost of 1683-84, did any plateways exist then?:jester:

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6 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The Great Frost of 1683-84, did any plateways exist then?:jester:

 

This post and following discussion; there may have been more further back in the topic:

 

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The really cold winter was the 1946-7 vintage. Apparently it made quite an impression on me because it caused a pipe to burst which brought down the ceiling under which I was innocently dozing in my cot!. The winter of '62-3 was particularly memorable as I was the unwitting cause of an outbreak of measles at school which (un)happily coincided with the worst of the weather. 

 

I don't much like cold weather...

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16 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The Great Frost of 1683-84, did any plateways exist then?:jester:

 

Gosh yes, they were old hat by then. Well, the wooden waggonways were as they had been around since the late C16 – probably earlier if you just count the underground variety. That's in the UK; Germany might have been ahead.

Edited by wagonman
spilling
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