More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Crimson Rambler]

Another coal train for Compound2632 - presented as relaxation from things Great Western!

 

This time its No. 1217 a Beyer Peacock built Class B 0-6-0 heading south through Elstree on the up slow line. It is one of the fifty or so of this class that lived at Wellingborough around the end of the nineteenth century. The photo was taken from the bridge that separated the coal yard from the goods yard and marked the northern limit of the platforms. It's a view packed with nostalgia for me as I used to watch 8Fs and 9Fs from the same vantage point going to and from school - but never saw anything as pretty as this 0-6-0!

 

Dating this view is more problematic and I would welcome your thoughts - the best I can do is between late summer 1895 and early 1900. It cannot be later because the tender has not yet been rebuilt and the last ones were done to an order issued in January 1900. The track layout appears to be the one adopted when the slow lines were brought into use in June 1895. The engine has been re-boilered and given 18ins cylinders - but this was in 1891 - so no use there - although out of interest it seems to have acquired a 'one piece' chimney but retained its Roscoe lubricator and the older pattern Furness lubricator.

 

I would be grateful if anyone is able to advise on any of the PO wagons.

 

 

The second view apart from illustrating the chimney tops of my maternal grandparents' house, gives a bit more of the coal yard. Nearly all of the wagons are Midland owned and to my untutored eye, appear to be D299. I like the low sided engineering wagon pushed up against the nearer stop block and being used what seems to be as a rubbish receptacle. Is the wagon next to it on the adjoining road one of the D299s with the additional central ironwork?

 

 

Mentioning track reminds me that both slow lines are laid in inside keyed track with twelve and thirteen sleepers per rail. The use in some lengths of twelve sleepers to a 30ft rail appears to have been a bit of a London Extension specialty. It may also be seen in some sections of 85lb outside key rails. A Johnson introduced a 36ft 85lb inside key rail not long before he retired - they are not that common but presumably the rail with thirteen sleepers is is one of those. His successor went back to 30ft and 36ft did not reappear until 100lb rail was introduced. The fast lines are in 85lbs outside key - 30ft rails with eleven sleepers.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[Northroader]

The wagon past the “waste” wagon has curved tops to the ends and dumb buffers. One of the private owner buyouts.

 

[billbedford]

The piles of 'stuff' to the right of the photo seems to be mostly building materials. One of them, at least, is made up of what seems to be glazed water pipes. 

[Compound2632]

The dropside wagon with its side down is an Engineer's Department wagon, as the flaps over the axleboxes are just visible. (Canvas? Leather?) The next wagon on that line, with dumb buffers and raised ends, is as @Northroader says, ex-PO. The next two wagons are interesting, both 4-plank wagons but not as tall as the ex-PO wagon. I believe that Midland did have some 4-plank mineral wagons of pre-Lot Book and pre-D299 vintage; it is just possible that Drg. 89 of 17 Nov 1874, titled "High Sided Wagon", applies. Unfortunately that's not a drawing in the Midland Railway Study Centre's collection. I think one appears in an 1894 photo inside Somers Town goods station, MRSC Item No. 61369. I think this photo has been reproduced in Midland Record or the Midland Railway Society Journal, where it first caught my eye, but I can't find it now. In that larger reproduction, it was possible to see that the pattern of the bolts on the corner plates, and other features, were very reminiscent of D299 (Compare the Lot 29 5-plank wagons to Drg. 402 and its precursor of 1875 - which is an alternative candidate for Drg. 89 - with the standard D299, Midland Wagons Plates 90 - 92.) These two 4-plank wagons might be further examples; the photo isn't very clear but the fact that they have sprung rather than dumb buffers makes it less likely that they are ex-PO. The long brake lever, while rather more usual than the short lever used on D299 and other Midland wagons of the late 19th century, is the type seen on the pre-D299 5-plank wagons mentioned.

 

In the row behind, there are three D299s. The one next to the buffers does have the additional vertical ironwork between the end pillars. It's my belief, based on a small number of dateable photos, that this was very common - perhaps as many as one third of all D299s, possibly all those built in the late 80s and early 90s. The slightly taller wagon is a PO wagon; of the one further along, frustratingly only the word "Colliery" is visible! All these wagons are probably 8 ton capacity, since they're none of them significantly deeper than the D299s.

 

Turning to the main photo but staying with the sidings, behind the engine's chimney is a taller PO wagon - 10 tons, I suppose, then probably another D299 and possibly a PO wagon. Then there's a gap to a rake of nine wagons: from the nearest, nos. 1, 3-5, and 7 are D299 - the nearest also having the extra end ironwork. No. 2 is a PO wagon (possibly ex-PO) loaded with something other than coal - perhaps more building material as @billbedford has pointed out. Nos. 6 and 8 are ex-PO, no. 6 possibly a 10 ton wagon - taller, with raised ends - while no. 8 has dumb buffers, while no. 9 is a PO wagon - probably RCH 1887 specification, 5-plank, 8 tons. 

 

In the train, the first seven wagons are PO, with only the third having dumb buffers. The fourth wagon has an extension, so it's probably carrying coke. It might seem odd to have just a single coke wagon in a mineral train but there's also just one in the LNWR mineral train in the 1897 Bushey film. The fifth wagon seems to have cupboard doors, which is unusual for this period and part of the world, though common in Scotland. The next two wagons are D299, then come four dumb-buffered wagons, one of which is lettered MR. 

 

None of these wagons have end doors though I suspect many have bottom doors - in the London area, some of the Midland coal depots had coal drops but none were equipped for end tipping, which is more associated with shipping or with very large industrial users; domestic coal merchants had no use for end doors either.

 

The PO lettering styles are quite restrained compared to the 3-foot-high lettering we're familar with from the inter-war years - lettering just one plank or sometimes two planks high.

 

Would it be possible, @Crimson Rambler, to see an enlargement of the LH side of the photo?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Compound2632

[Dave Hunt]

2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Dating this view is more problematic and I would welcome your thoughts - the best I can do is between late summer 1895 and early 1900. It cannot be later because the tender has not yet been rebuilt and the last ones were done to an order issued in January 1900.

I think that it would be in the earlier part of your timescale Adrian as the tender was without M R lettering, which was applied from 1892.

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

Compound 2632 - please find the opposite end below:-

 

 

Unfortunately while this is a large print it is a bit dark whereas a postcard print I have is much better in this respect. Let me know if you would like the latter scanned.

 

David - my first thought were that it was say 1892/3 - not least because of the absence of MR on the tender side. But there are one or two Spinners photographed at St Pancras or KT with no lettering but fenders so I did some more delving:-

 

 

The Midland had been busy during the '80s and '90s quadrupling its line into London. In 1893 track plan the coal yard is the wrong way round, whereas in the 1914 plan below, produced after the removal of the south signal box it is the same way as the

 

 

the photo.

Gough reports that the quadrupling through Elstree came into operation in the last few days of June 1895.

I had registered the presence of the salt glazed pipes but their presence is perhaps of greater significance. Are they required for the revised coal yard?

If they are destined for Midland use rather than for a local builder then the date could be summer/autumn 1895 and it would possibly account for the piles behind the wagons - which don't all look like coal to me.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

[Compound2632]

@Crimson Rambler, thanks. I was hoping to get an enlargement of some of the PO wagons in the hope that their lettering might be legible - so the ideal enlargement would be from the rear of the tender to the wagon in line with the signalbox.

 

I had a look at the OS 25" map on the National Library of Scotland website. The 1896 survey agrees with the 1914 signalling diagram - siding between the fast and slow lines, sidings reversed, though the crossover between the fast and slow lines at the Radlett end is missing. So your original dating of no earlier than late summer 1895 isn't so far off. Evidently, @Dave Hunt, Wellingborough mineral engines weren't in the front of the queue for the M R transfers! Also, I can see no evidence of lining at all. 

 

This photo is in the collection of the MRSC, Item No. 60585. I did a catalogue search for Elstree photos but although there are a number of interesting pre-1907 shots, none that I could convince myself were taken on the same day. 

 

 

[Crimson Rambler]

Thank you Compound2632 for the 25ins plan reference. It does seem to tie in, especially because Goslin states the Radlett end crossovers were introduced in 1913 and this was followed by the closure of Elstree South signal box. 

 

Please also find a close up of the train from the tender to the box - I would be very pleased if you are identify any of them. 

 

I forgot to acknowledge Bill Bedford's comment on the spoil in the goods yard - that was most helpful.

 

The lack of lining on some goods engines - when did this practice start and when did it end? Was it universally applied or was 'locality or engine-duty based'?  There is well known picture of sister engine No 1203, also shedded at Wellingborough and BP built, taken 15th June 1901 and it too has no lining but it does have MR on the tender side. Weatherburn modified the livery of engines at Kentish Town, other sheds did something similar albeit to a lesser degree. Most, but not all Midland points at this period used interlaced sleepers with through timbers at the crossing and switch, but there are instances of contemporary dated photos where the points were laid throughout on timbers. Were district staff simply allowed more autonomy that might be considered appropriate late?

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Unfortunately it's not quite sharp enough to be confident of the lettering. The one on the siding might be JOHN FOWLER (or something-LER anyway); the leading wagon is possibly ?. BET....S..S & Co, but definitely LONDON on the lower right.

 

Might the style of point timbering depend on the location? The interlaced point in question is in the siding between the fast and slow lines; might through timbering be preferred on the running lines but economy winning out elsewhere?

 

Meanwhile, on the outskirts of Chester c. 1872, wagon building continues apace:

 

 

These are starting to acquire identities - the 4-plank is certainly from os Lot 66, Nos. 20501-20700; the 1-plank from os Lot 53, Nos. 21083-21143; the 2-plankers from os Lots 75, 93, 98, 112, or 130. How to represent the number carved into the solebar?

 

The first 2-planker continues to be the guinea-pig, trying out the buffers for size - MJT ribbed buffers, their item no. 2309:

 

 

Other details include the axlebox stops or whatever they are, individually hand-crafted from 0.060" x 0.040" Evergreen strip, and the drawhook plate, cut from 0.080" x 0.010" Evergreen strip - the MJT axleguard etch includes a variety of plates but not quite the style used on these wagons, 11" x 6" with chamfered corners and two bolt heads - these being the ends of the longitudinal rods that brace the headstocks and middle bearers. 

 

The MJT etch does provide crownplates. Previously, I've superglued these in place, which can be a bit messy, but I noted that @Ian Smith had used varnish to fix some 2 mm scale brass numberplates:

so I thought I'd try d-limonene. This seems to have worked; leastways, they haven't fallen off yet.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Dave Hunt]

I have to admit that I didn't notice the lack of lining on the locomotive. I was under the impression, gained if I remember correctly from David Tee, that omitting the lining on some goods engines was likely a result of the locomotive shortage starting in the mid to late 1890s as it saved a few days getting them back into service following repainting.

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

Been thinking a bit more about unlined/brown Midland goods engines but I'm reluctant to post my random thoughts on this forum as it has nothing really to do with wagons - Midland Railway Company is perhaps a more appropriate home, while hopefully others will also have observations to make.

 

I seem to recall a discussion on RMweb about how barrels were carried in wagons - whether upright or on their 'sides'. Here are a couple of views shewing them standing upright and seemingly loose loaded with no visible packing or restraint:-

 

 

 

The goods train they form part of is on the down goods line passing through Wellingborough in September 1898. The scenes are from clearing up after the unfortunate accident that occurred in the evening of the 2nd September when O.554 7ft 4-4-0 No 1743 was derailed by a trolley in the 4ft. I suspect the barrels are empty and being worked back to Burton.

 

Not knowing very much about wagons I have posted them in hope of learning more. Hopefully there are better quality prints in circulation to aid this. The one lettered powder van appears intriguing, while there are a couple of NSR owned wagons heading home accompanied by a number of Staffordshire based PO wagons. Coke raves and dumb buffers were in fashion in 1898 yet the Anglo-Caucasian Oil Company's tank wagon would not have been out of place fifty years later. 

 

 

Two questions if I may - what are colliery wagons doing with raves - was it a cheap way to increase the carrying capacity if combined with larger journals? Secondly can any kind person please advise on the colours of the PO wagons?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Well I never! Bradwell Wood (Staffordshire Chemical Company) again! Seen heading up to London behind a LNWR coal engine: https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-on-the-lnwr-1897-online;

Club night - so further comment tomorrow, probably.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

I've made a purchase:

 

 

I was fortunate to find a copy online that was not absolutely exorbitantly priced, though still more than the average new PO wagon book. My copy bears on the flyleaf the stamp of Mel & Ann Jones of Rochdale, under which is written in ink in block capitals: M/EH. R/WAY EX. 2003.

 

This is timely, since pp. 22-23 deals with wagons of the Midland Coal Coke & Iron Co. Ltd, Newcastle, Staffs., two of which are on the right of the third of @Crimson Rambler's Wellingborough 1898 photos:

 

On 20/10/2020 at 18:35, Crimson Rambler said:

 

The wagon next to the Anglo-Caucasian tank wagon is a 6-plank wagon that bears a strong similarity to Tavender's drawing (b) on p. 23 of wagon No. 2216, builder unknown, based on an HMRS photo V1478 which isn't listed online; Tavender gives a reference: H.B. Holland, in Model Railway Constructor Vol. 36 (Oct 1969) p. 306. The wagon drawn is 16'0" over headstocks, 3'10" deep with six planks, from top to bottom 2 x 7", 9", 2 x 7", 9", and has an end door. This seems to me a pretty good match. Tavender's drawing shows a later livery style; the lettering on the wagon in the Wellingborough train is similar to other examples he gives:

2nd plank down: MIDLAND COAL COKE & IRON Co. Ltd.

4th plank down: NEWCASTLE [M] STAFFORDSHIRE - [M] denotes a large letter M, straddling three planks - the company trademark.

5th plank down, on the bottom at the left, in script: Empty to

6th plank down, on the left, probably N.S.R.; on the right, a 4-digit number possibly ending in 7. With a bit of imagination this might be 2027, which sits in a gap in Tavender's list of wagons hired from the Birmingham RC&W Co. but would sit at about the right date - early 1890s.

 

The other MCC&ICo. wagon is not a type drawn by Tavender. Although it's about the same depth, I think it has seven planks, with the top two through above the side door. It has fixed ends. The lettering is also a style not noted by Tavender:

Top two planks: MIDLAND COAL COKE & 

Next two planks: IRON [door] Co. Ltd.

5th plank down: NEWCASTLE [M] STAFFORDSHIRE

Bottom plank: on the left, probably N.S.R., on the right, there's a dark rectangle where the number should be. 

An interesting constructional feature of this wagon is that it has a vertical washer plate between the end pillars, as on many Midland D299s - evidently a fashionable feature in the early 90s.

 

Both these wagons are probably 10 tons capacity. As to livery, there is the odd hint of shading to the lettering, which suggests the base colour is not black. Tavender's drawings show shading but he goes no further than to suggest a medium grey - if so, it has darkened considerably in service. Alternatively, they could be varnished wood, as wagon No. 5000 built by Hurst Nelson c. 1901, HMRS photo ABP410, although the layout of lettering on that wagon is very different.

 

The MCC&ICo. worked several collieries near Newcastle-under-Lyme, notable the Apedale Colliery or Burley Pit, and also operated the Apedale Ironworks, with an extensive mineral railway linking its facilities to the NSR at Apedale Junction, just outside Newcastle: 1898 OS 25" map.

 

The next wagon is dumb-buffered, four planks - possibly 9", giving 3'0" depth, with raves giving an extra 2' or so of height. The raves are undoubtedly to adapt the wagon for coke, which is less dense than coal. (The capacity of a wagon in terms of weight is determined by the size of its bearing journals, not by its volume.) It has the early form of construction with a series of individual brackets at the corners, rather than corner plates. On the second plank down it is lettered: TALK O' TH' HILL COLLIERY and on the bottom plank, at left: N . S . R . and at right: No. 151 (possibly). Notwithstanding the spelling, this colliery was at Talke, near Alsager - 1898 OS 25" map. There's a write-up here from which we learn that the North Staffs coalfield had several good seams of "highly bitumenous coking coal" - this was processed on site. Coke production is usually associated with gasworks, the coke being a useful by-product of gas production. However, I think that in the case of the North Staffs coalfield, the chemical composition of the coke produced may have made it particularly useful for speciality industrial uses, hence the trade in coke to London or the South East [see the previous discussion re. the Staffordshire Chemical Company, linked above].

 

Next comes another 4-plank dumb-buffered wagon - possibly three 9" planks and a 12" top plank, with an end door and the fixed end raised in a smooth arc. On the top plank, I think at the left, an initial with a superscript, perhaps a shortened name such as Rd for Richard; above the door, in smaller letters (9"), presumably the surname, then & (9") Co (12"). On the next plank, Nr. STOKE ON TRENT. On the bottom plank up, on the left, NSR, and on the right, a number, possibly 680. The second plank from the bottom is a lighter colour; one might think this was a repair were it not that it is the same both sides of and on the door - there was a fashion for having one plank picked out a different colour. G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1993) includes a list compiled by H.B. Holland of PO wagons on the NSR; the only very tentative match is Charles Salt & Co., listed under Stoke-on-Trent (glossed: Mill Hayes Colliery, Burslem?) with a date of 1892. SALT is sufficiently short a name to fit in the pace above the door but one would need rather more than the eye of faith to believe that it definitely says Chas. on the left! Mill Hayes Colliery was owned by Salt & Co. in the 1880s and 90s. 

 

On both these wagons, I think the side door is three planks high, with latches on the through top plank. 

 

Then the Bradwell Wood wagon, of the type previously discussed, and another dumb-buffered coke wagon, this one with five planks, I think, and a full-height door with latches at the sides. Lettered on the top two planks: A. H. KEEP, and on the second plank from the bottom, LONDON. I've not been able to track down anything about this firm.

 

Next another dumb buffered wagon, from the layout of the lettering, five planks, but almost certainly the same firm as the possibly-Salt wagon. Then a five-plank dumb-buffered coke wagon, with illegible lettering except that the top plank reads: [something] & [something]. This wagon has the single-shoe Scotch brake, whereas all the others discussed so far have double brakes with a central V-hanger, at least on those where the brakes are visible. All have brakes on one side only, it is to be presumed. Then a group of three similar 6-plank dumb-buffered wagons, with the top plank rather thin; doors four planks high with side latches, I think. Very pale, presumably grey, with lettering only on the bottom plank - some initials on the left; the number ought to be on the right but not convincingly visible.

 

The next two wagons could very well be NSR 1-plank wagons - there's a hint of the Staffordshire Knot amidships. They're certainly not Midland - the company had no ordinary-length 1-plank wagons - and not LNWR, since the ends of the headstocks are straight, not cut away. Both have the Scotch brake - typical for the Knotty's 1-plank wagons, many of which were of considerable antiquity [Chadwick, op. cit.]. The final visible wagon, 4-planks with curved raised end, might just possibly be another MCC&ICo. wagon - there's just a hint of the large M on the door.

 

All the NSR-based wagons raise the question, why are they going home from London by the Midland? The LNWR would be a much more obvious route; indeed, my other Bradwell Wood sightings were in a LNWR train heading south for Willesden in 1897 and on the tippler at Milwall Docks, NLR, on 22 June 1898. And what would the route be? Leicester, Burton and thence onto the Knotty?

 

I think that's enough to be going on with. I really should get a hobby!

 

PS: Random D299 sighting (two of them, loaded with a flat roped lot of timber or maybe bales, possibly, though bales I would expect to be sheeted), together with a D357 covered goods van, being shunted by a natty little LSWR 0-6-0T at Yeovil Town c. 1908, cty. a one-man-band Yeovil local history website.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

I meant to say in the above post that behind the Anglo-Caucasian tank wagon, there's a very freshly painted Midland D299 that appears to have something written under the M - possibly just a chalk marking?

[Crimson Rambler]

Excellent Stephen - many thanks.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Dave Hunt]

Are we going to see this train reproduced and going over Sharnbrook Adrian?

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

It's certainly a very attractive idea - and I'm very strongly drawn to it. But perhaps not an exact replica I think more something in the spirit of it - rather like the layout is inspired by Sharnbrook rather than a model of it!

 

However, first things first, I have to put the boiler book to bed.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

Moving on to the next photo in the sequence:

 

On 20/10/2020 at 18:35, Crimson Rambler said:

I seem to recall a discussion on RMweb about how barrels were carried in wagons - whether upright or on their 'sides'. Here are a couple of views shewing them standing upright and seemingly loose loaded with no visible packing or restraint:-

 

 

I suspect the barrels are empty and being worked back to Burton.

 

the Anglo-Caucasian Oil Company's tank wagon would not have been out of place fifty years later. 

 

Taking the tank wagons first, they do look to be of very similar design so I suspect both are Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co. but one is very much grubbier than the other. I'm afraid I don't know much about tank wagons but I gather that the design and standard capacities of the tanks themselves were the subject of RCH specifications from quite early on - certainly by the date of this photo. They certainly look to be tanks of rather large size. The one feature that really marks them out from the tank wagons of half a century later is the wooden frames - but I'm sure the more knowledgeable could point to other differences. I've been unable to discover anything about the Anglo Caucasian Oil Co., the internet being dominated by information about the Anglo Persion Oil Co., founded ten years after the date of this photo, and its meddlings in the Caucasus. 

 

I should have thought about the empty casks when speculating on the route home of the NSR wagons - this points to Burton as the place of exchange with the Knotty. I'm sure we've discussed upthread or elsewhere the instructions on loading empty casks, as exemplified by this Midland official photo:

 

 

NRM DY 11707, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. (There are several more photos in this set taken on 12 Nov 1920 showing incorrect methods of loading casks but as they're not uploaded to the Derby Registers pages of the Midland Railway Society website, I'm none the wiser.)

 

This method of stacking is supposed to minimise the danger of the ends of the casks getting knocked in. However, this is for maximising the load in one wagon and presumably takes some labour to load up. We know that at this period the northern lines into London were sending more goods into the capital than was going out, so that there was a northbound flow of goods empties as well as mineral empties. So there was no incentive to load one wagon carefully when there were two at hand that could be loaded quickly and easily. Presumably the casks are safe enough standing on end, so long as they don't shift around too much and, crucially, they're not left standing around in the rain, with water accumulating in the upturned ends.

 

We've got a D305 of 1880s vintage followed by four D299s, and from the next photo, at least one more wagon, another D305. Diagram numbers are probably anachronistic - I'm not quite sure when the first wagon diagram book was issued but possibly early 20th century? So, low sided and high sided wagons. Two of the high sided wagons have the extra bolts and washer plate between the end pillars; I think both of these have the 8A axleboxes that were standard issue up to the early 1890s - I haven't quite pinned down a date for the transition to the Ellis 10A axleboxes with their distinctive lugs, that the other two wagons have. 

 

I'll move on to the end of the train, including the mysterious powder wagon - for which I think I have an identity - after dinner.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[billbedford]

British Caucasian Oil is not listed in Tourret's 'Petroleum Tank Wagons of Britain'. 

 

Though there is an entry for United Caucasian Oil Co Ltd, but this is for one of their tank wagon numbered 21 and  built in 1922. 

[Compound2632]

Right, on to the tail of the train:

 

On 20/10/2020 at 18:35, Crimson Rambler said:

 

Working from the rear, as that suits my dramatic purpose, we have: a 10 ton brake van, D390; a dropside wagon that may not be Midland - it seems to have a long brake lever; and a D299 high side wagon with a load that seems to be sheeted within the wagon only, possibly.

 

Then there's a peaked roof wagon: salt, lime, or some other substance that needs to be kept dry and separate from other cargoes for fear of contamination. Here's a wagon of the general sort, built by Chas. Roberts & Co. in 1909. I think the high sides indicate salt rather than lime. The NSR served the salt-producing districts of Cheshire, though of course the Midland had more than a finger in the Worcestershire area, with the Salt Union's works at Stoke Prior.

 

The next wagon is obscured by the crane jib but looks to be a dumb-buffered PO wagon of around 3'0" depth - 8 tons capacity. It might have an end door at the LH end - I think the hinge bar can just be made out. The wagon after that is deeper, around 4'0", so 10 ton capacity.

 

Finally, a pair of very interesting wagons. There's a dropside wagon with Scotch brake. After staring at it for a while I have come to think that the marking in the middle is the NBR quatrefoil, with, just possibly, the crescent-shaped date panel visible at the LH end. Is that lettering on the middle plank, or just a replacement timber? I'm inclinded to think the latter; the NBR could let its wagons get into a poor state, at least paint-wise. The large N B initials started being used in the early 1890s but many wagons went for a long while without gaining them. NBR wagon livery has been discussed in a couple of topics:

 

This dropside wagon is probably an 8 ton wagon to NBR diagram 81, LNER SSA diagram 13B, the type illustrated in the drawing here. The wagon next to the brake van might be another. A tell-tale is that the hinges at the ends are inset by a couple of feet, with wrap-around plates on the ends of the sides. 

 

I was, like @Crimson Rambler, puzzling over the very plain-looking van lettered POWDER, until the identification of the dropside wagon as NBR gave me the clue. The style of bodywork is that of an NBR "Jubilee" van, NBR diagram 10, LNER SSA diagram 37B &c. I don't have Tatlow's volume on LNER Scottish Area wagons but I do have J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991). In this, p. 14, I read: "Built to NB Diagram 10, modification and adaptation in the NB period saw these vehicles in use as meat vans, tool vans, gunpowder vans as well as their intended general merchandise role." A late survivor in departmental use can be seen here, at Edinburgh St Margarets shed in the 1950s. The NBR obtained some iron-mink-like gunpowder vans in 1904, built by Renshaw to RCH standards - other companies, including the LNWR, did likewise, while the Midland built new gunpowder vans also in 1904 which, while not copying the GWR design in any detail, were clearly intended to conform to the same specification. I suspect that older vans like this NBR example would have been taken out of gunpowder traffic around then, as not meeting the specification.

 

This set of photos of the aftermath of the Wellingborough accident are not the Derby officials usually reproduced (DY 1033-1039). A search of the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue reveals Item No. 77-14146, "Six fine B&W photographs 6"x4½" mounted on card depicting the aftermath of the derailment of the 7-15pm St. Pancras-Manchester express train at Wellingborough [...] Photographs taken by a local professional photographer." I suspect that examination of these prints under a magnifying glass would reveal more detail than can be made out in what I take to be scanned copies of these, where the resolution is limited by the scanner. The original glass plates and good prints made from them should have a resolution limited by the granularity of the photographic emulsion, which is likely to have been at the few-micrometre level. If you've got a state-of-the-art digital camera, it's sobering to realise that it has poorer resolution than a late 19th century 6½" x 8½" glass plate. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Excellent detective work again Stephen. Most people on the planet, if asked what was in those photos, would have this to say: "Trains". You have elaborated a bit on that 

 

The photos and information together are a historical document. Which brings up the old issue: How will we find this information in 3 years, and how will future modellers access it? Some years ago Martin Wynne and others experimented with an index for RMweb. IIRC, the task proved too big and complex.

 

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

PS: Random D299 sighting (two of them, loaded with a flat roped lot of timber or maybe bales, possibly, though bales I would expect to be sheeted), together with a D357 covered goods van, being shunted by a natty little LSWR 0-6-0T at Yeovil Town c. 1908, cty. a one-man-band Yeovil local history website.

 

Great photo. The siding in the foreground seems rather close to that unstable looking drop!

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Excellent detective work again Stephen. Most people on the planet, if asked what was in those photos, would have this to say: "Trains". 

 

Like I said, I need a hobby...

 

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The photos and information together are a historical document. Which brings up the old issue: How will we find this information in 3 years, and how will future modellers access it? 

 

I keep a Word transcript of significant posts in this topic. That at least is more searchable than RMWeb - the search facility is a bit primitive. I'd like to be able to search on posts by a specific member, for instance. Google can sometimes help but will give different results over time. For instance, a search on: wellingborough nbr powder doesn't (yet) find the above post.

 

Some of the material could be turned into articles for a suitable journal, though much of it is probably too obscure - or too speculative -even for that.

[65179]

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

British Caucasian Oil is not listed in Tourret's 'Petroleum Tank Wagons of Britain'. 

 

Though there is an entry for United Caucasian Oil Co Ltd, but this is for one of their tank wagon numbered 21 and  built in 1922. 

 

Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co. was a Rothschild company.  According to Oil on the Rails, Rothschilds were marketing oil in Britain through the Kerosene Company, which became Anglo-Caucasian Petroleum in 1897, and was joined by the Nobel company in 1900 to form Consolidated Petroleum. From elsewhere it is clear that Consolidated later became part of BP. What Coppin in Oil on the Rails refers to as Anglo-Caucasian Petroleum is elsewhere referred to as Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co.

 

Simon

Edited October 22, 2020 by 65179

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co. was a Rothschild company.  According to Oil on the Rails, Rothschilds were marketing oil in Britain through the Kerosene Company, which became Anglo-Caucasian Petroleum in 1897, and was joined by the Nobel company in 1900 to form Consolidated Petroleum. From elsewhere it is clear that Consolidated later became part of BP. What Coppin in Oil on the Rails refers to as Anglo-Caucasian Petroleum is elsewhere referred to as Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co.

 

Anglo-Caucasian Oil Co. is what it says on the tank! But if the firm became Anglo-Caucasian Oil / Petroleum in 1897, that perhaps explains the clean state of wagon No. 61. Perhaps its grubby companion is still lettered for the Kerosene Company? 

 

Does Coppin give any details of the company's wagon fleet?

[65179]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Does Coppin give any details of the company's wagon fleet?

 

Sadly no details, although there's a chance are you could play snap with later views of the BP fleet and see these wagons in later guise such was the longevity of these vehicles.  You can see from the photo that they are a typical late 19th century design with wooden frames,  short cradle, domed manhole, wooden end pillars and crossheads, wire securing ropes etc. Thus, despite being earlier, with many features in common with what Coppin refers to as the 1901 Home Office design.

 

Simon

Edited October 22, 2020 by 65179