More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[mike morley]

 

 

This picture was originally posted by Poor Old Bruce on the Grounded Vans thread way back in 2016.  It, not surprisingly, prompted some interest at the time but no one was able to identify its origins and we are hoping we might have better luck here, as this is obviously where the experts on obscure wagons tend to congregate.  We're assuming it is of pre-Grouping origin, the reasoning being that if it dated from the Big Four era someone would probably have identified it when it was first posted.

Any ideas, please?

[jwealleans]

At first glance it looks to me like a GE Continental van, created by building the rest of the body onto what were known as Continental opens. 

 

Is it in GE territory?

[Darryl Tooley]

2 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

At first glance it looks to me like a GE Continental van

I think you're close but the continental stock was rather longer than this.

 

It looks to be one of the fruit van conversions from dia 24 open fish wagons  (See Great Eastern Journal issues 112 and 144).

 

D

[Compound2632]

On the lower half, presumed fish open, are those fillets of timber filling in the gaps in the originally slatted side? 

[Darryl Tooley]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

On the lower half, presumed fish open, are those fillets of timber filling in the gaps in the originally slatted side?

That I couldn't tell you, not knowing what the wagons originally looked like; it seems likely.  The fillets are visible on both the known photographs of the van conversion.

 

D

[Compound2632]

Well, it looks like this thread has done its good deed for the day!

 

Meanwhile, I've been going cross-eyed applying the Archer resin transfers; both sides of the 1-plank and one side of the 4-plank, also the side knee washer plates and hinges of the first 2-plank. No work on ends today:

 

 

The 1-plank wagon has 35 bolt heads per side; it'll need 28 on each end, so that's 126 in total. If you're counting, the ones you can't see are along the side rail - black on black. I haven't counted how many there are on the 4-plank wagon!

 

I still haven't worked out how to do the brakes but I think I'll need to buy in etched brass V-hangers and levers. I've not found any suitable curved levers so I think I'll be trying to bend straight ones. Probably 51L/Wizard unless anyone has any better suggestions?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Northroader]

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Northroader said:

 

How many times does it have to be said: They're not rivets, they're bolts!

[Dave John]

Well, thats how I spent Sunday. 438 of them on one wagon. As luck would have it a strip of 4 had the right spacing. 

 

The Wizard ones can be bent on the flat with care, thats the ones I use in a variety of sizes. 

 

 

[Regularity]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

How many times does it have to be said: They're not rivets, they're bolts!

Well, actually, they are neither.

What they are, are little pieces of resin representing the nuts (which should be square or maybe hexagonal), not the bolts, and which also omit the thread of the bolt just showing through...

In fact, according to the packaging, they are actually meant to represent rivets, but you have chosen to use in place of nuts and bolts...

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Regularity said:

What they are, are little pieces of resin representing the nuts (which should be square or maybe hexagonal), not the bolts, and which also omit the thread of the bolt just showing through...

In fact, according to the packaging, they are actually meant to represent rivets, but you have chosen to use in place of nuts and bolts...

 

Yes, quite. As you know, working in S7, Mike @airnimal uses resin moulded nuts and bolts but as a mere 4 mm bodger such details are all in the imagination. 

 

46 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Well, actually, they are neither.

 

But you strike at the whole suspension of disbelief that underpins railway modelling.

[Regularity]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, quite.

I wasn’t the one being pedantic in response to them being called “rivets”...

[Mikkel]

The GWR opens look good Stephen. You'll need a 3-planker now for the complete set.

 

Good luck with the nuts.

[Poor Old Bruce]

20 hours ago, mike morley said:

 

 

This picture was originally posted by Poor Old Bruce on the Grounded Vans thread way back in 2016.  It, not surprisingly, prompted some interest at the time but no one was able to identify its origins and we are hoping we might have better luck here, as this is obviously where the experts on obscure wagons tend to congregate.  We're assuming it is of pre-Grouping origin, the reasoning being that if it dated from the Big Four era someone would probably have identified it when it was first posted.

Any ideas, please?

 

20 hours ago, jwealleans said:

At first glance it looks to me like a GE Continental van, created by building the rest of the body onto what were known as Continental opens. 

 

Is it in GE territory?

 

It was at Rauceby between Grantham and Sleaford so not a million miles away from GER land. I presume it would have been 'tidied up' by now but it would be nice to know if is still there.

 

Thanks for the answers folks.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Poor Old Bruce

[Poor Old Bruce]

20 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

I think you're close but the continental stock was rather longer than this.

 

It looks to be one of the fruit van conversions from dia 24 open fish wagons  (See Great Eastern Journal issues 112 and 144).

 

D

 

Any way of accessing that information?

[Western Star]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... working in S7, Mike @airnimal uses resin moulded nuts and bolts but as a mere 4 mm bodger such details are all in the imagination.

If you wish to try and achieve similar results in 7mm and I see no reason why you shall not succeed then I am happy to provide a set of Slater's finest S7 solid spoke 3' 1" diameter wheels.  As an aficionado of all-things Midland (ought that to be GWR Northern Division at the turn of the 19th century?) you might even consider using a Slater's D299 kit as the basis of your first foray into the Senior Scale...  plenty of suitable drawings in the MRC study centre for the necessary nut and bolt placements).

 

regards, Graham

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Western Star

[Darryl Tooley]

1 hour ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

Any way of accessing that information?

You would probably have to be a GERS member.

 

In any case there isn't a huge amount of information to be had.

 

50 wagons to dia 24 were built in 1893, 30 more in 1903, and all were converted to fruit vans in 1909.   They seem to have lasted about 20 years or so after that.

 

D

[mike morley]

1 hour ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

Any way of accessing that information?

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/special-vans

Scroll most of the way down the page.

 

Details of the fish trucks that were the original donor vehicles

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/fish-trucks

 

[Compound2632]

On 11/11/2020 at 11:56, mike morley said:

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/special-vans

Scroll most of the way down the page.

 

Details of the fish trucks that were the original donor vehicles

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/fish-trucks

 

 

I note the GERSoc website claims:

 

"However, rather than building more of the diagram 27 vans the additional stock was more economically provided by converting 6 open fish trucks into vans to diagram 23. This was accomplished by building new sides and a roof onto the existing open truck, secured by new full length timber corner pillars and end stanchions. The new full height double doors did not utilise the originals from the fish truck but nonetheless retained the characteristic vertical planking while the upper part of the new body had louvres."

 

The photograph clearly shows that someone at Stratford was having the wool pulled over their eyes!

 

On 11/11/2020 at 08:12, Mikkel said:

The GWR opens look good Stephen. You'll need a 3-planker now for the complete set.

 

 

Geen kit, sadly no longer available new. I was thinking about the possibility of cutting down a Coopercraft 4 or 5 plank open (and hiding the fudge with a sheet) but they're 16'0" long whereas the 3-plankers were 15'6" like the 2-plank wagons. Also I think the arrangement of the side knees may be different. However, there seems to be quite a variety among 3-plank wagons - not well-documented - with only the later ones having iron frames, some having curved ends, some being conversions from broad gauge. Early ones may have had the same wooden underframe as the 2-plank wagons, as did the earliest of the wood-bodied covered goods wagons.

 

On 11/11/2020 at 08:12, Mikkel said:

Good luck with the nuts.

 

It's driving me...

 

On 11/11/2020 at 10:45, Western Star said:

If you wish to try and achieve similar results in 7mm and I see no reason why you shall not succeed then I am happy to provide a set of Slater's finest S7 solid spoke 3' 1" diameter wheels.  As an aficionado of all-things Midland (ought that to be GWR Northern Division at the turn of the 19th century?) you might even consider using a Slater's D299 kit as the basis of your first foray into the Senior Scale...  plenty of suitable drawings in the MRC study centre for the necessary nut and bolt placements).

 

I am tempted to build one as a display model and might do so in a senior moment.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Darryl Tooley]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The photograph clearly shows that someone at Stratford was having the wool pulled over their eyes!

Err...  I think you  may be confusing the 1893 fish wagons, all 80 rebuilt as seen above, with the 1878 ones, of which 6 out of 80 were apparently converted to vans, presumably in the manner described, though I've not seen a photo of one.

 

D

[mike morley]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The photograph clearly shows that someone at Stratford was having the wool pulled over their eyes!

 

The bit you are questioning refers to the Diagram 23 vans.

 

Scroll down further and this refers to the Diagram 24 van Poor Old Bruce photographed.

"From 1909 stock numbers seriously declined; in that year all 80 of the diagram 24 trucks were converted into fruit vans, achieved with a blend of ingenuity and subtlety, by adding a completely new section on top of the existing open body and secured by wood screws and a selection of corner irons. Even the existing side doors were retained as they were matched with new upper sections and on casual inspection there was little to suggest that the van started life as an open truck."

I think my only quibble with that is the 'little to suggest the van started life as an open truck'.

 

[Compound2632]

Apologies all. Evidently someone decided the first round of conversions were too extravagant!

[mike morley]

But doesnt it result in an extremely modellable van?

[Compound2632]

While we're on the topic of modellable vans, here's a trio of particularly fruity ones going up the Lickey behind 2-4-0 No. 279:

 

 

This is a crop from a scan of the cover of P.B. Whitehouse, Pre-Grouping in the West Midlands (OPC, 1984) - an album that is very much of its time - a splendid selection of photos but the scholarship in the captions does not always stand the test of time. This photo is attributed to W.L. Good, which is highly likely, but the date of c. 1920 must be wrong. No. 279 has a G6 Belpaire boiler, with which it was fitted in July/August 1927 and carried until withdrawal at the end of 1931 [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) p. 23]. 

 

Anyway, I think the leading van is one of the M&GNJR fruit vans but the second, with its flush lower sides and slatted upper sides, and the third, with X-framing, are a mystery to me.

 

For @t-b-g, the first two passenger carriages are 48ft square-light clerestories: a D499 lavatory third brake with ventilators replacing the door toplights (per Ratio) and a D486 lavatory third that has retained its door toplights. Both appear to have kept their 10ft wheelbase bogies.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Darryl Tooley]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, I think the leading van is one of the M&GNJR fruit vans but the second, with its flush lower sides and slatted upper sides, and the third, with X-framing, are a mystery to me.

These look like fish vans to me, the first (and probably the third) being an LNER dia 23, the second an ex-GN fish van.

 

Edit: the third van on close inspection looks like it might be one of the rather similar GC fish vans - same handrail on door, but slatted sides instead of the louvres on the LNER version.

 

D

Edited November 11, 2020 by Darryl Tooley
further information