More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Western Star]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I was rather pleased by the austere warning on their home page:

 

"It should be pointed out that we do not produce a livery if it is not accurate to our wagon bodies and we have photographic proof of the original prototype. "

 

[Although possibly an extra "do not" is needed in reference to prototype photos.]

 

Just do not ask David about the historical accuracy of the Ocean model.  Agreed that there is a photo of the wagon in the Gloster photographic library....  just that the wagon in the photo was never registered with the GWR as being owned by Ocean.  MInd you, Ian Pope and I have yet to find which coal supplier was the eventual owner of that wagon.

 

On a similar point, consider the recent Lydney Coal Company from Dapol.  Nice looking, inaccurate, livery.  The model has a RCH registration plate which can be read as registered by the GWR.... oh dear, if you look at the corresponding photo in the Gloster library the RCH plate shows that the wagon was registered by the L&BSCR.  Gloster had taken the wagon back from the original operator and then re-sold the wagon to the Lydney company.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Just do not ask David about the historical accuracy of the Ocean model.  Agreed that there is a photo of the wagon in the Gloster photographic library....  just that the wagon in the photo was never registered with the GWR as being owned by Ocean.  MInd you, Ian Pope and I have yet to find which coal supplier was the eventual owner of that wagon.

 

Ocean is listed as not currently available. The image is an unnumbered wagon but it is of the same type as 4817 pf July 1987 illustrated in Montague, Plate 434. But might not some of Ocean's wagon fleet have been registered with one of the South Wales companies? I've been collecting photos of Ocean wagons; the only other official Gloucester portrait I've come across is 917 of July 1893. This is the same type - 6 plank side and end doors - but has the earlier round-bottomed axleboxes. That one has its registration plate but unfortunately not clear enough to see with which company the wagon is registered.

 

23 minutes ago, Western Star said:

On a similar point, consider the recent Lydney Coal Company from Dapol.  Nice looking, inaccurate, livery.  The model has a RCH registration plate which can be read as registered by the GWR.... oh dear, if you look at the corresponding photo in the Gloster library the RCH plate shows that the wagon was registered by the L&BSCR.  Gloster had taken the wagon back from the original operator and then re-sold the wagon to the Lydney company.

 

Montague, Plate 368. Montague's caption says "Built in April 1901" whereas as you say it is presumably "repainted". Re-hired, not re-sold, though - it has three Gloucester plates: builder, owner, and "for repairs advise". 

[Compound2632]

More brakery fakery, on the reconditioned D62 ballast wagons. Direct lever action with wooden block (left) contrasted with the modern indirect lever and push-rod with iron block (right):

 

 

Once I started adding the door banger springs - three on each side - I regretted having scraped off the bang plate from the top plank and worse, realised that the brake lever ends on these wagons are joggled down to tuck under the door banker...

 

LNWR Wagons Vol. 3 has much to answer for!

 

The same comparison can be made on this pair of opens, D2 on the left, D4 on the right, from a Ratio kit I spotted on Ebay:

 

 

This kit had evidently been knocking around unloved for a third of a century - well, now it's fulfilled its destiny. The photo in the instructions shows a slightly unlikely combination of oil axleboxes and single block brake on the D2 and double brake on the D4 - I think the latter's more likely on a wagon uprated to 10 tons, D9. This time I was lazy and bought an underframe kit for the extra four grease axleboxes. That turned out to be just as well since my first go at assembling the D2 ended up somehow with the bottom of the headstocks about 0.5 mm below the bottom of the solebars (reverse Slaters D299 effect) so I ripped them out and tried again with replacements from the underframe kit and packing.

 

On the D4, I  scraped the door bang plate off and on the brake side, repositioned it where it would bang against the boss on the end of the brake lever, as shown on the drawing in LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 (but not on any photo I've seen, I think).

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Western Star]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Montague, Plate 368. Montague's caption says "Built in April 1901" whereas as you say it is presumably "repainted". Re-hired, not re-sold, though - it has three Gloucester plates: builder, owner, and "for repairs advise". 

You need to purchase Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean (Ian Pope, Lightmoor Press) where there is a rather nice A5 image of the Lydney Coal Co. wagon, the RCH plate is legible and shows that the wagon was registered by the LB&SCR in 1899.  Ian has informed me of the original operator... I recollect that that operator is also in Slater's range!

Edited November 29, 2020 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Western Star said:

You need to purchase Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean (Ian Pope, Lightmoor Press) where there is a rather nice A5 image of the Lydney Coal Co. wagon, the RCH plate is legible and shows that the wagon was registered by the LB&SCR in 1899.  Ian has informed me of the original operator... I recollect that that operator is also in Slater's range!

 

I have been resisting, doubting that such wagons would come Birmingham way. I have Ian's Gloucestershire volume, from which it appears that the Forest of Dean collieries were supplying cis-sabrinine Gloucestershire but that coal merchants there were also drawing on Birch Coppice in particular among the North Warwickshire collieries, which suits me to a tee. 

 

Isn't the wagon in question Thomas Meakins of Dorking, No. 48? 

[Nick Holliday]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have been resisting, doubting that such wagons would come Birmingham way. I have Ian's Gloucestershire volume, from which it appears that the Forest of Dean collieries were supplying cis-sabrinine Gloucestershire but that coal merchants there were also drawing on Birch Coppice in particular among the North Warwickshire collieries, which suits me to a tee. 

 

Isn't the wagon in question Thomas Meakins of Dorking, No. 48? 

One interesting section in the Forest of Dean book is an almost complete list of the orders received by Crawshay, from 1908 to 1919.  Most of the trading is relatively local, including Bristol and Gloucester, and as far as Swindon, but there are a couple of intriguing entries, presumably as a result of war conditions (1917). One note says "Having received an order for 100 tons of Eastern United block coal for the South Eastern & Chatham Railway Co. from Messrs.  W D Barnet & Co, Exchange Chambers, St. Mary Axe, London EC. Mr A J Morgan stated that he had seen these people and arranged with them to try the coal at 34/- per ton carriage paid to Cuxton station, SECR. It was decided to execute the order. Also to encourage further orders for this coal if satisfactory from the railway co. in future when our output increased." Another stated "As regards the 100 tons for Mr. A J Morgan for the Borough Surveyor of Ealing it was decided that as long as he was being charged full list price with no factors rebate it was quite in order to supply him 500 or 1,000 tons if it was at all convenient to do so notwithstanding the minute passed 15 February last." 

The breakdown of charges for the SECR order is enlightening.

Coal at colliery - 20s per ton, Truck hire to Cuxton station, or any other on SECR - 1s 10½d per ton, Railway rate - 9s 10d, Commissions to Messrs. Barnet 2s 3½d, totalling 34s per ton.

At the time (1917) Lightmoor small coal was only 13s per ton, or so, at the colliery, the GWR were being charged 22s 6d for best large household coal, supplied at 400 tons per week, in GWR wagons, but the Ross Gas Company had to pay 22s 8¾d for the Eastern block, and 26s 2¾d for Lightmoor block, showing not just the variation in cost of different types of coal extracted from the same pit, but also the discounts available. The price of coal had also risen considerably as the war progressed - in 1914 Lightmoor small coal was being dealt with at 6s 6d per ton.

[Compound2632]

Carrying on with various LNWR odd jobs, I've finally bought myself to tackle the problem of the fixed coupling for my D13 twin timber wagon. This has been hanging over me for the last couple of years, though I did do some work on the LRM bolsters back in April. 

 

 

The Ratio kit comes with a representation of the fixed coupling (that for the D13 and the D48 rail wagon represented by the kit are the same). The piece that represents the wooden bumper is represented as a channel, rather than a solid piece, but is the right size and shape. In order to fill the channel (with two thicknesses of 0.040" plasticard) it had to be filed square - due to the requirements of the molding process it tapers to its base. The plasticard filling the channel was cut to the curve of the molding and a 1 mm diameter hole drilled for the coupling pin. As a first attempt, I've just bent up a U-shaped piece of 1 mm brass wire. This tends to ride up and jump out but has been good enough to test that the coupled wagons pass smoothly over a reverse curve. The real coupling consisted of a flat metal bar top and bottom held in place by pins through the bumpers.

 

I've also fitted brake levers (LRM etches) but have the lever guides still to do. But nearly there!

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This has been hanging over me for the last couple of years

 

Now there's a man who takes his wagons seriously 

 

The wagons look good. Have you seen Gareth's D12 wagons here: https://imgur.com/gallery/IYZhN

 

[Western Star]

On 29/11/2020 at 21:00, Compound2632 said:

 

On 29/11/2020 at 19:55, Western Star said:

You need to purchase Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean (Ian Pope, Lightmoor Press) where there is a rather nice A5 image of the Lydney Coal Co. wagon, the RCH plate is legible and shows that the wagon was registered by the LB&SCR in 1899.  Ian has informed me of the original operator... I recollect that that operator is also in Slater's range!

 

Isn't the wagon in question Thomas Meakins of Dorking, No. 48? 

Stephen @Compound2632 , you are correct, how did you deduce that answer?

 

As for FoD wagons in the Birmingham area, I have spoken with Ian Pope and he tells me that there are no references or photographs to substantiate that suggestion.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

Stephen @Compound2632 , you are correct, how did you deduce that answer?

 

I read it somewhere but can't find the reference.

 

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

As for FoD wagons in the Birmingham area, I have spoken with Ian Pope and he tells me that there are no references or photographs to substantiate that suggestion.

 

That's what I thought. No FoD wagons for me.

[Compound2632]

This little LNWR interlude has coincided with the posting on the LNWR Society Facebook page of one of the most exciting pieces of 19th century railway film I've seen - eclipsing the Bushey 1897 and The Kiss in the Tunnel films for rarity if not for detail. Like those films, it is wonderfully clear and sharp - attributable to the use of 89 mm (3.5") film, I believe. It is stated to date from 1898 and features the Teutonic 3-cylinder compound 2-2-2-0 No. 1304 Jeanie Deans, in her day the most famous LNWR locomotive, purportedly at the head of the Irish Mail. It's on Youtube, so I think should be accessible outside the UK:

 

 

That's a bit of a fudge: the train is running on the up slow line through Bushey station and over the water troughs and the carriages are one of the Euston-Watford 50ft suburban sets. It's presumably an official publicity film, taking advantage of the four-track main line - much as was done in LMS days for the publicity film for the Coronation Scot train. As for "at full speed": reference to the contemporary OS 25 inch map shows that the up slow line signals seen at 2 s, 17 s, and 31 s are about 13 chains apart - 26 chains in 29 s is about 40 mph. 

 

No doubt everyone involved was very pleased with the technical set-up - filming a moving train from another moving train - a first? (Presumably the camera is set up in an open wagon.) There was probably much cursing when it was realised that no-one had thought to stop traffic on the down slow. For ten whole seconds Jeanie Deans is obscured by a train of empty mineral wagons - which is of course why I'm posting about the film on this thread!

 

Like the mineral train in the Bushey 1897 film, the train is hauled by one of Webb's 500 coal engines and tailed by a D16 brake van - this one finally giving me proof that the verandah end widows were glazed! Of the 45 or 46 wagons, fourteen are LNWR 4-plank wagons (positions 1-5, 7, 18, 27-29, 31-34). These could be either D4 merchandise opens or D53 coal wagons; I'm inclined to think they're all the latter, partly on the grounds that it's a mineral train but also because on several the curved brake lever is visible; according to LNWR Wagons Vol. 3 this style of lever only appeared on these wagons (and the D54 5-plank rebuilds). The accepted wisdom seems to be that the usual style of lettering of these wagons before the adoption of the LNWR initials in 1908 was like the model on the left:

 

 

(Looks like I need to go back and change that brake! D4 on the right, with single iron shoe push rod brake, which was typical for that diagram.)

 

Certainly in the film, the pair of diamonds can be seen on the second plank down; on some there's a hint of the inscription on the top plank. However, on the wagons in positions 18, 27, 29, and 34 are clearly lettered COAL WAGON on the second plank down. Looking through LNWR Liveries, there is an example of a wagon painted in this style, Plate 116, c. 1894/5. There it is said to be one of the earliest examples of D4 but as it's the non-brake side that is visible, I don't see how the two types can be distinguished. D53 wagons were built from 1883-1890 (15'0" long) and 1890-1894 (15'6" long); D4 wagons were built 1893-1902, all 16'0" long.

 

There is one other railway company wagon, a Great Northern 5-plank mineral wagon, position 30 - sandwiched between D53s.

 

The remaining wagons are all PO wagons and quite a mixed bunch. Unfortunately I don't think so many of them can be identified as in the Bushey 1897 film or the Wellingborough 1898 photos we looked at a couple of months ago. However, I was rather pleased with the sixth wagon, a 5-plank side door wagon, LEA & Co, LONDON, possibly numbered 317? There's an article on this firm in Turton's Thirteenth with a couple of photos of Hurst Nelson wagons of 1901 which have a similar layout and reveal that the word on the bottom plank of the door is the depot name, e.g. Highbury or Kingsland. Livery appears to be black, with white lettering shaded a light colour; this is consistent with the wagon in the film. If the number is 317, it would be one of thirty 8-ton wagons obtained from Stableford in 1892. What Turton doesn't mention but is easily come across by googling "lea & co wagon" is an interesting bit of litigation from 1880, by which it was established that a contractural obligation (in this case a repair contract) could be transferred to a third party. See for example this summary. 

 

8-10: 7-plank side and end door, middle one possibly ?TER

11-14: 4-plank raised ends, dumb buffers. Side doors are 3 planks with latches on the through top plank. Company name on second plank down with number above door.

15: 7 plank side door. PATES? 

16: 5-plank side door. J.J. WARD? 

17: 5-plank, but with top and bottom plank taller, about 12"; raised ends, side doors. P? Maybe same firm as 15.

19: 5-plank. PARRY. A well-known London coal factor.

20-21: Three wagons of Clarke, London. Possibly a first name on the top left? The first is a 5-plank wagon, again with deeper top and bottom planks, raised ends, and possibly dumb buffers. The other two are dumb buffered and both have four planks, but of different widths, so one is about 3'0" deep and the other maybe 3'8".

23: 7-plank side and end door.

24: 5-plank raised ends. MANNERS? There was a Manners Colliery near Ilkeston. It's not MANVERS as Manvers Main Colliery wasn't sunk until 1900/1.

25: 7-plank end door. It might just say SNEYD COLLIERY on the top two planks. However, the 1911 wagon in Hudson Vol. 3 is quite different in lettering style.

26: 4 wide planks, raised ends.

35: 5?-plank, raised ends. GREGORY(?) & SMITH. 

36: 4-plank, raised ends.

37: 7-plank, end door.

38: 5-plank, raised ends.

39 onwards: six or seven 6/7-plank end door wagons. Several of them have a 4-digit number over the door: 415 is legible; also an S on the end of one - they might be Stephenson Clarke wagons.

 

If anyone has any better ideas on identification, I'd be glad to know!

 

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

This little LNWR interlude has coincided

As ever, superb forensic work, Victorian detective, you could certainly have been...

[Rail-Online]

Could 20-21 Clarke be William Clarke (mainly) of Lincoln?  They branded their wagons as from London as well and were quite a large company by the 1930s.  I think you are correct on the Manners wagon

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Could 20-21 Clarke be William Clarke (mainly) of Lincoln?  They branded their wagons as from London as well and were quite a large company by the 1930s. 

 

I did wonder about that. Can one read the top left as WILLIAM?

[Compound2632]

The goods train is in shot for about 10 seconds. At 46 or 47 wagons plus engine and brake, it's around 900 ft long. That means its speed relative to Jeanie Deans is about 60 mph, i.e. it's plugging along the down slow at about 20 mph. 

[Crimson Rambler]

What no D.299 wagons - hopefully there was at least one!

 

Did the fireman get so engrossed with the filming that he forgot to raise the scoop before the tank overflowed? Poor platelayers!

 

Excellent bit of film though - thank you for posting it.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Mikkel]

Some interesting lineside details too. E.g.:

 

 

 

Is that a GWR wagon I spy in the background (first one) ? Pre-pooling so sheets not shared:

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Is that a GWR wagon I spy in the background (first one) ? Pre-pooling so sheets not shared:

 

I'm afraid I'm sceptical. Where I think you are seeing the letters G W R I see only highlights. Anyway, they're too near the edge to be the lettering on a Great Western sheet. Besides, I think the wagon has timber end pillars.

[Mikkel]

Yes, I see what you mean. Wishful thinking! 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The Irish Mail film is a definite fudge, especially as the carriages are 50ft arc roof "suburban" stock.

 

The rear of the goods train Brake Van is interesting, as then planking  at window level seems to be a lighter colour than the rest of the body.

[Compound2632]

On 05/12/2020 at 15:58, Jol Wilkinson said:

The Irish Mail film is a definite fudge, especially as the carriages are 50ft arc roof "suburban" stock.

 

As I said - and it's on the up slow. The carriages were identified in a posting by David Maltman on the L&NWR Society Facebook page as a Euston-Watford set: brake 2nd, 2nd/1st compo, 1st, 1st/3rd compo, 3rd, brake 3rd, agreeing with the table on p. 52 of Millard & Tattersall but not with the text on p. 59 which I think has been garbled. That's the same as the set seen in the Bushey 1897 film, when it must have been almost brand new. In the 1897 film, it's down train with the third brake leading; the "Irish Mail" film shows the second brake leading, so we can infer that these twelve sets of carriages ran with the second class at the town end and the third class at the country end.

 

On 05/12/2020 at 15:58, Jol Wilkinson said:

The rear of the goods train Brake Van is interesting, as then planking  at window level seems to be a lighter colour than the rest of the body.

 

@Penlan has commented on that too; he suggested that it might be a conversion of a previously open-ended van. However as far as I can make out from LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, any such conversions of D16 vans was the other way round - from the standard end to open end for ballast brakes. 

 

Going back to Jeanie Deans, the L&NWR Society Journal arrived today. There is a new book on the Webb compounds advertised - looks most interesting. But there's also a most peculiar article on indicator diagrams for compound locomotives in which the author appears to display a disturbing degree of ignorance of compound locomotives in general. The North Eastern's Worsdell-Von Borries two cylinder compounds are dismissed in a sentence in which they are assumed to be a single unsuccessful example rather than running to 272 locomotives, including the joint fastest 19th century British locomotive, Class J 4-2-2 No. 1517, that attained 90 mph on test, along with many more (how many?) on the Prussian State Railways. There's also an apparent ignorance of the history of the development of the Midland compounds (with which he is making comparison) and W.M. Smith's contribution in particular. So I'm venting my irritation here before composing a reasoned and balanced letter to the editor.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Back to the Saltney wagons. I've bent four 51L etched brake levers to the appropriate curve - quite easy to do with the four held together, in two pairs folded together but still joined at pivot end and threaded onto a bit of 0.8 mm brass rod. I thought I might have to tack solder them together but got away without needing to do so. They're as yet over-length and lacking the kink to clear the axlebox but I've started marrying one up to the Ambis vees:

 

 

The etched vee with bolthead detail is a bit flimsy so I think I may solder a plain vee to the rear - it's not quite clear if they're simply intended as an overlay anyway (at least to one who hasn't read the instructions). There's a lot of cunning design gone into this Ambis etch, I can see, which would come into play if one was modelling a wagon with those newfangled both-side brakes. 

[Chas Levin]

On 03/12/2020 at 16:24, Compound2632 said:

This little LNWR interlude has coincided with the posting on the LNWR Society Facebook page of one of the most exciting pieces of 19th century railway film I've seen - eclipsing the Bushey 1897 and The Kiss in the Tunnel films for rarity if not for detail. Like those films, it is wonderfully clear and sharp - attributable to the use of 89 mm (3.5") film, I believe. It is stated to date from 1898 and features the Teutonic 3-cylinder compound 2-2-2-0 No. 1304 Jeanie Deans, in her day the most famous LNWR locomotive, purportedly at the head of the Irish Mail. It's on Youtube, so I think should be accessible outside the UK:

 

 

That's a bit of a fudge: the train is running on the up slow line through Bushey station and over the water troughs and the carriages are one of the Euston-Watford 50ft suburban sets. It's presumably an official publicity film, taking advantage of the four-track main line - much as was done in LMS days for the publicity film for the Coronation Scot train. As for "at full speed": reference to the contemporary OS 25 inch map shows that the up slow line signals seen at 2 s, 17 s, and 31 s are about 13 chains apart - 26 chains in 29 s is about 40 mph. 

 

No doubt everyone involved was very pleased with the technical set-up - filming a moving train from another moving train - a first? (Presumably the camera is set up in an open wagon.) There was probably much cursing when it was realised that no-one had thought to stop traffic on the down slow. For ten whole seconds Jeanie Deans is obscured by a train of empty mineral wagons - which is of course why I'm posting about the film on this thread!

 

Like the mineral train in the Bushey 1897 film, the train is hauled by one of Webb's 500 coal engines and tailed by a D16 brake van - this one finally giving me proof that the verandah end widows were glazed! Of the 45 or 46 wagons, fourteen are LNWR 4-plank wagons (positions 1-5, 7, 18, 27-29, 31-34). These could be either D4 merchandise opens or D53 coal wagons; I'm inclined to think they're all the latter, partly on the grounds that it's a mineral train but also because on several the curved brake lever is visible; according to LNWR Wagons Vol. 3 this style of lever only appeared on these wagons (and the D54 5-plank rebuilds). The accepted wisdom seems to be that the usual style of lettering of these wagons before the adoption of the LNWR initials in 1908 was like the model on the left:

 

 

(Looks like I need to go back and change that brake! D4 on the right, with single iron shoe push rod brake, which was typical for that diagram.)

 

Certainly in the film, the pair of diamonds can be seen on the second plank down; on some there's a hint of the inscription on the top plank. However, on the wagons in positions 18, 27, 29, and 34 are clearly lettered COAL WAGON on the second plank down. Looking through LNWR Liveries, there is an example of a wagon painted in this style, Plate 116, c. 1894/5. There it is said to be one of the earliest examples of D4 but as it's the non-brake side that is visible, I don't see how the two types can be distinguished. D53 wagons were built from 1883-1890 (15'0" long) and 1890-1894 (15'6" long); D4 wagons were built 1893-1902, all 16'0" long.

 

There is one other railway company wagon, a Great Northern 5-plank mineral wagon, position 30 - sandwiched between D53s.

 

The remaining wagons are all PO wagons and quite a mixed bunch. Unfortunately I don't think so many of them can be identified as in the Bushey 1897 film or the Wellingborough 1898 photos we looked at a couple of months ago. However, I was rather pleased with the sixth wagon, a 5-plank side door wagon, LEA & Co, LONDON, possibly numbered 317? There's an article on this firm in Turton's Thirteenth with a couple of photos of Hurst Nelson wagons of 1901 which have a similar layout and reveal that the word on the bottom plank of the door is the depot name, e.g. Highbury or Kingsland. Livery appears to be black, with white lettering shaded a light colour; this is consistent with the wagon in the film. If the number is 317, it would be one of thirty 8-ton wagons obtained from Stableford in 1892. What Turton doesn't mention but is easily come across by googling "lea & co wagon" is an interesting bit of litigation from 1880, by which it was established that a contractural obligation (in this case a repair contract) could be transferred to a third party. See for example this summary. 

 

8-10: 7-plank side and end door, middle one possibly ?TER

11-14: 4-plank raised ends, dumb buffers. Side doors are 3 planks with latches on the through top plank. Company name on second plank down with number above door.

15: 7 plank side door. PATES? 

16: 5-plank side door. J.J. WARD? 

17: 5-plank, but with top and bottom plank taller, about 12"; raised ends, side doors. P? Maybe same firm as 15.

19: 5-plank. PARRY. A well-known London coal factor.

20-21: Three wagons of Clarke, London. Possibly a first name on the top left? The first is a 5-plank wagon, again with deeper top and bottom planks, raised ends, and possibly dumb buffers. The other two are dumb buffered and both have four planks, but of different widths, so one is about 3'0" deep and the other maybe 3'8".

23: 7-plank side and end door.

24: 5-plank raised ends. MANNERS? There was a Manners Colliery near Ilkeston. It's not MANVERS as Manvers Main Colliery wasn't sunk until 1900/1.

25: 7-plank end door. It might just say SNEYD COLLIERY on the top two planks. However, the 1911 wagon in Hudson Vol. 3 is quite different in lettering style.

26: 4 wide planks, raised ends.

35: 5?-plank, raised ends. GREGORY(?) & SMITH. 

36: 4-plank, raised ends.

37: 7-plank, end door.

38: 5-plank, raised ends.

39 onwards: six or seven 6/7-plank end door wagons. Several of them have a 4-digit number over the door: 415 is legible; also an S on the end of one - they might be Stephenson Clarke wagons.

 

If anyone has any better ideas on identification, I'd be glad to know!

 

What a wonderful piece of film, thank you for posting it! As you say, marvellously clear and also it lasts for a deent length of time!

[ossy5190]

Thank you for sharing that short video clip, I never thought I'd see a pre-grouping train in motion in such clarity.

[BWsTrains]

21 hours ago, ossy5190 said:

Thank you for sharing that short video clip, I never thought I'd see a pre-grouping train in motion in such clarity.

TBH when I first saw the still image of the video my mind turned to TtTE and I went looking for the "eyes" on the smoke box door! The whole thing looks far too crisp to be a 100+ yr old film however professional.

 

Sacrilege I know but it's what came to mind. Are we 100% sure that it's not a construction using modern technologies? 

Addition: I was looking at a reply. Going back to the original post, now I see its pedigree. Whoops! Sorry if any offense was caused.

 

I've put hard hat and flak jacket on for the incoming!

 

Colin

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by BWsTrains
update