More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[kitpw]

The thing that caught my eye in the aerial view above is the building adjacent to the single siding - it looks like a quarter (or possibly half) circular elevation with the ground sloping up round it.  Part circular elevations seem to turn up in France (and elsewhere in Europe), but are, I think, quite unusual in English railway architecture. A particularly good example from France is the station at Saint-Germain en Laye - this link goes there (wish we could too - tier 4+ disobliges):

http://reseau3gg.centerblog.net/voir-photo?u=http://reseau3gg.r.e.pic.centerblog.net/o/150bec80.JPG

 

Kit PW

[Northroader]

(It would make a nice basis for a Minories station, too)

oops, where were we?

[Compound2632]

On 05/01/2021 at 17:17, Northroader said:

oops, where were we?

 

Thank you, @Northroader. Getting right back On Topic, and for the reassurance of @Dave Hunt:

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

On 16/10/2020 at 18:01, Crimson Rambler said:

Please also find a close up of the train from the tender to the box - I would be very pleased if you are identify any of them. 

 

@Crimson Rambler, I think the fifth and seventh wagons can be identified as part of the Monk Bretton Colliery fleet:

 

 

Those cupboard doors are distinctive and the layout of the lettering is the same. There are several five-plank wagons with raised ends, like the seventh wagon in the train, whilst the taller wagon in the third row could be a match for the fifth wagon. Usefully, the train photo shows the brakes on both types of wagon - single block, long lever - not visible in the colliery photo.

 

See also Midland Railway Society Journal No. 74 (Autumn 2020).

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Western Star]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

See also Midland Railway Society Journal No. 74 (Autumn 2020).

For those of us who are not members...  and not likely to be so.... what delights hide behind such a simple direction?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

For those of us who are not members...  and not likely to be so.... what delights hide behind such a simple direction?

 

Not a great deal more - full version of the Monk Bretton Colliery photo, showing more buildings, with caption (hastily written by me, contains typos) drawing attention to the cupboard doors as an unusual feature in English wagons - more typical of Scottish practice. All in the context of a short article about Grimesthorpe Colliery workmen's trains (which also served Monk Bretton). This photo was inserted at short notice when it was discovered a photo thought to be of the Grimesthorpe workmen's train in the 1950s was actually somewhere else. Enough to lure you into membership of the Society? Alternatively, copies can be supplied to non-members, at a price.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

@Crimson Rambler, I think the fifth and seventh wagons can be identified as part of the Monk Bretton Colliery fleet:

 

 

... and the twelfth.

 

My best guess at the livery is black, lettered white.

[Compound2632]

On 07/01/2021 at 20:16, Compound2632 said:

My best guess at the livery is black, lettered white.

 

Question is, though, what is the word on the left, balancing BARNSLEY?

[CKPR]

 

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Question is, though, what is the word on the left, balancing BARNSLEY?

Cudworth

[Western Star]

Referring to the title of this topic...  D299 wagons were built with cast iron brake blocks which had two pin holes per block...  one hole for the pin to suspend the block from the block hanger and one hole for the pin to connect the block to a push-rod.  If the block incorporated a lug to wrap the block around both sides of the wheel flange (to be substantiated) then the block was "non-reversible" and the arrangement of the brake gear required two patterns for the blocks (one LH and one RH).

 

The design of cast-iron blocks was revised at some point such that each block had three pin holes...  one hole at the middle of the block for the connection to a push rod and two holes, one at each end of the block, with one of the two holes used to suspend the block from the block hanger.  Such blocks were "reversible" and the brake gear arrangement required just one pattern of block.  Reference to "Midland Wagons Volume 1" shows that the reversible brake block was fitted to open goods wagons by or during the LMS period - I am not able to determine if any photos in the volume show wagons with reversible blocks in MR livery or prior to 1923.

 

So when was the reversible brake block introduced to D299 / D305 / D351 wagons?

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 10, 2021 by Western Star

[billbedford]

The reversible brake blocks were used on the LNWR from c1912, so they my not have been adopted by Drby until after there grouping. 

[Compound2632]

@Western Star, I think @billbedford's surmise is correct. As far as I can make out, reversible brake blocks became universally standard with the RCH 1923 specifications - the earliest wagon drawing showing them that I can find on the Midland Railway Study Centre website is for the LMS standard 12 ton merchandise wagon of 1923 - LMS D1666. 

 

I don't believe any D299 wagon - i.e. any 8 ton high-sided wagon to Drg. 550 - was built with wooden brake blocks. From the C&W drawing register: the standard drawing for the one-lug cast iron block is Drg. 523, dated 23 August 1881, along with Drg. 522 of the same date, for the arrangement of brakework on wagons; also Drg. 525, 16 September 1881, for details of brakework on wagons. Drg. 550 is dated 18 April 1882. 

 

This is where the pitfalls of Derby C&W drawings start to become evident. The register lists Drg. 3884, dated 21 May 1913, "Standard Brake Blocks for Carriages and Wagons". The MRSC has a copy of this, Item 88-D0785. No. 6 on this drawing is a reversible block, labelled "Standard Wagon Ordinary". I strongly suspect that, like a number of drawings in the collection, this is not the original but a redrawn, updated copy*. For one thing it has what looks like the RCH 1923 standard block for 12 ton wagons squeezed into a corner. It has been updated several times, given an LMS number 15/297, and has four revision dates inked in, from 24-1-38 to 10-5-50. The drawing of each type of block is overstamped "Superseded entirely by Drg. 12/861". However, block No. 6 is annotated "Order to Drg. 523" - i.e. the 1881 drawing! The MRSC has a copy of Drg. 523, Item No. 88-D1728. This evidently isn't the 1881 original (on stylistic grounds if nothing else, e.g. stencilled block lettering rather than flowing copperplate); in fact it has had the suffix A added, blocked out, and replaced by B; it's been given an LMS number 15/303. It shows a reversible block that is skinnier than the RCH block; it could well be the type of block seen in Midland Wagons Plate 103 (Vol. 1 p. 75). So although it's nominally the same drawing, it represents the current version of the same item. 

 

So, thinking about replacement of the old standard one-lug block for ordinary wagons by its two-lug reversible successor, there are two factors: how long did it take to use up stocks of the old type? and, what was the typical service lifetime of a cast iron brake block?

 

One thing about wagon brake blocks that I was ignorant of before: they have a lip cast into the back that engages with the wheel flange when the brake is applied. This prevents the coning of the tyre from forcing the block outwards. Brake blocks for fitted wagons and carriages don't have this feature as the yoke connecting the blocks on either side holds them in.

 

*The MRSC's copy of Drg. 550, Item 88-D1879, for the D299 wagons is a case in point. It shows oil axleboxes and is marked "For and after the last 242 wagons of Lot 513" and is overdrawn in red with emendations for Lot 919. (The MRSC has three other copies of Drg. 550 that I haven't investigated.)

Edited January 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

On 10/01/2021 at 11:19, Compound2632 said:

@Western Star, I think @billbedford's surmise is correct. As far as I can make out, reversible brake blocks became universally standard with the RCH 1923 specifications ...

Stephen, @Compound2632, your comment set me thinking about how the introduction of the reversible brake block impacted upon PO wagon construction - so I did a cheap and cheerful assessment of the GRC&W photo archive, or rather a localised part of that collection.  Ian Pope has published a tome about the PO wagons of the Forest of Dean - roughly 150 pages with (say) two photos per page and a good percentage are of GRC&W origin... most of the GRC&W images include order details, paint details and date of the photograph.  Working my way through the GRC&W photos in "Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean" (Lightmoor Press, ought to be on everyone's bookshelf) I cannot see an official view of a wagon with the non-reversible brake block dated after August 1912 nor can I find an official view of a wagon with the reversible brake block dated before September 1912.

 

Initial reaction is that Gloucester had made the change in the summer of 1912.

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 11, 2021 by Western Star

[Western Star]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't believe any D299 wagon - i.e. any 8 ton high-sided wagon to Drg. 550 - was built with wooden brake blocks. From the C&W drawing register: the standard drawing for the one-lug cast iron block is Drg. 523, dated 23 August 1881, along with Drg. 522 of the same date, for the arrangement of brakework on wagons; also Drg. 525, 16 September 1881, for details of brakework on wagons. Drg. 550 is dated 18 April 1882.

Stephen, @Compound2632, thank you for nudging my understanding in the correct direction, the first two photos in the "high sided goods wagons" (Midland Wagons, Essery, OPC) which have wood brake blocks are not to drawing no.550 and hence are not to Diagram 299.  I have used your response above to correct my post.

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Initial reaction is that Gloucester had made the change in the summer of 1912.

 

I've had a quick skim through K. Montague, Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd (OPC, 1981), over 600 wagons illustrated with a strong a bias towards pre-Great War; this seems to confirm your conclusion. The earliest wagon with reversible blocks I could find was November 1912 (Plate 231) apart from one oddity - a wagon for C. Collett & Sons, Bourton-on-the-Water, photographed in September 1904 (Plate 127), which is wearing odd shoes - one single-lugged and one double-lugged block. Both blocks have the Gloucester name picked out in white, so it's not a block from a random repair. 

 

I haven't got Ian's book on the Forest of Dean wagons but I do have his volume on cis-Sabrinine Gloucestershire, which provides ample evidence for Gloucestershire coal merchants getting some of their coal from the North Warwickshire coalfield and Birch Coppice Colliery in particular, which suits my modelling!

 

As to those early 5-plank wagons not being D299, if those Lot 29 wagons to Drg. 402 were of 8 tons capacity, I would imagine that they would be put on D299 if they were still in existence when the Diagram Book was compiled. The question is, when was that? The copy of the Carriage Diagram Book in the MRSC collection is from 1906. The two copies of the Wagon Diagram Book held by TNA (RAIL 491/859 and 860) are listed as "date unknown". I suspect that it's an early 20th century invention; I think the Great Western's one dates from about 1906, so the then most recent opens and vans are given the lowest O and V diagram numbers, e.g. starting with the bogie Mink F - V1 - then backwards to the V6 iron mink, then leaping forward to the Mink C - V7.

 

Also, although I blithely equate D299 and Drg. 550 wagons, it shouldn't be overlooked that an unknown but probably small number of wagons built to that drawing were actually on D300, having been fitted with AVB through pipe.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

As far as I can make out, reversible brake blocks became universally standard with the RCH 1923 specifications

Generally speaking, the RCH standards were a reflection of what had effectively become become common practice over the previous years, rather than what it should be henceforth. The earliest example I have found of what would become the 1908 standard, for example, was about 1896. Can't remember exactly what the wagon was, but I do remember trying to find a late-Victorian example for a friend.

Graham's remark here bears weight on this:

12 hours ago, Western Star said:

Initial reaction is that Gloucester had made the change in the summer of 1912.

 

[Miss Prism]

The GWR started using reversibles in 1911. Not sure what diagram they first appeared on.

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Generally speaking, the RCH standards were a reflection of what had effectively become become common practice over the previous years, rather than what it should be henceforth. 

 

Yes, indeed. Also one shouldn't overlook the fact that the RCH wasn't dreaming up specifications from an ivory tower in Seymore Street - the railway companies had a very large say, the RCH Wagon Committee being made up of representatives of the C&W departments of the larger companies, and of course the need for wagons to meet minimum specifications was driven by the railway companied themselves. The Midland had a very large hand in this, as the largest mineral railway in the country: T.G. Clayton was chair of the Wagon Committee when the first specifications were drawn up in 1887. 

 

But the new outcome from the RCH 1923 specifications was that the railway companies, as well as the wagon building trade, adopted RCH specifications and standard components for new construction.

[Western Star]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've had a quick skim through K. Montague, Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd (OPC, 1981), ... The earliest wagon with reversible blocks I could find was November 1912 (Plate 231) apart from one oddity - a wagon for C. Collett & Sons, Bourton-on-the-Water, photographed in September 1904 (Plate 127), which is wearing odd shoes - one single-lugged and one double-lugged block.

Stephen, @Compound2632, the photo cited by yourself is rather small in Montague's book so I have looked at a larger version of the same photo in PO Wagons of Gloucestershire (Ian Pope, Lightmoor Press and on your bookshelf), Collett is to be found on page 125 in Ian's book.  The photo in Ian's book shows that both brake blocks are of the "two hole / non-reversible" type - I can see why you thought otherwise....  a reflection from a wheel spoke (on the far side of the wagon) is aligned with the lower corner of a brake block.

 

So, stand easy, my suggestion that the change in brake block type for new build Gloster wagons tool place circa August/September 1912 continues to be the front runner.

 

regards, Graham

Edited January 11, 2021 by Western Star

[Western Star]

53 minutes ago, Western Star said:

 

Duplicate post has been removed.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Stephen, @Compound2632, the photo cited by yourself is rather small in Montague's book so I have looked at a larger version of the same photo in PO Wagons of Gloucestershire (Ian Pope, Lightmoor Press), Collett is to be found on page 125 in Ian's book.  The photo in Ian's book shows that both brake blocks are of the "two hole / non-reversible" type - I can see why you thought otherwise....  a reflection from a wheel spoke (on the far side of the wagon) is aligned with the lower corner of a brake block.

 

So, stand easy, my suggestion that the change in brake block type for new build Gloster wagons tool place circa August/September 1912 continues to be the front runner.

 

Ah, yes, looking in Ian's book I see that. Normality is restored. I had a quick look in Watts' Ince book; I couldn't find any instance of a pre-1923 Ince wagon with reversible blocks but I'm not sure there were any photos between c. 1910 and post-1923.

 

We're fortunate to have the Gloucester photo archive but it does result in Gloucester wagons being all-pervasive as models. I'm working my way through Keith Turton's books (having recently bought the 14th and 15th) looking for examples of other builders' standard wagons, to cross-reference to the Midland PO registers. A good photo of an S.J. Claye wagon of the 1890s would be invaluable.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Compound2632

[Guy Rixon]

On 10/01/2021 at 00:09, billbedford said:

The reversible brake blocks were used on the LNWR from c1912, so they my not have been adopted by Drby until after there grouping. 

Slightly earlier on LNWR fitted wagons. E.g. D95 vans seen with reversible blocks c1906.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Guy Rixon said:

Slightly earlier on LNWR fitted wagons. E.g. D95 vans seen with reversible blocks c1906.

 

But the blocks used on fitted wagons at this period, which had clasp brakes, are of the passenger type which had long been reversible.

[Compound2632]

On 09/01/2021 at 22:09, CKPR said:

Cudworth

 

Hummm. Looking closely at (staring to hard at) the leftmost wagon of the three Monk Bretton ones in the second row, I think I read NEAR with the N larger than the EAR. But then there needs to be a short word before that. It might be the same on the middle wagon of the three, though it's hard to be sure if I'm looking at lettering or highlights from the coal in the D351 wagon in front! (And that's looking at an 8"x12" print.) Looking at the wagons in @Crimson Rambler's train photo, I think what comes before is in characters as tall as that larger N, if N it is. 

[CKPR]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hummm. Looking closely at (staring to hard at) the leftmost wagon of the three Monk Bretton ones in the second row, I think I read NEAR with the N larger than the EAR. But then there needs to be a short word before that. It might be the same on the middle wagon of the three, though it's hard to be sure if I'm looking at lettering or highlights from the coal in the D351 wagon in front! (And that's looking at an 8"x12" print.) Looking at the wagons in @Crimson Rambler's train photo, I think what comes before is in characters as tall as that larger N, if N it is. 

Wath upon Dearne ?