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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Now, I've just had a bit of practice at Great Western clerestory-spotting. That's clearly a centre-brake composite with the early style of deep eves panelling. Reference to @Penrhos1920's invaluable website, the nearest match I can find is diagram E9, eight 40 ft carriages built in 1880 as standard-gauge vehicles, not convertibles, "for Manchester traffic". The problem with this identification is that the diagram shows the guard's door on the side with three compartments, while in the photo it's on the side with two compartments. So I'm wondering if the carriage in the photo is a type that didn't last long enough to get into the diagram book - 1910? It is almost certainly a tricomposite, like E9, with one first and one second class compartment.

Pure speculation, but could there have been variants of the same diagram with the guard's door on different side? The SECR had some brake vans like this, when the carriage-building contractors interpreted the spec. a little loosely. The two versions would have been equivalent in use, so could have shared a diagram.

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58 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Pure speculation, but could there have been variants of the same diagram with the guard's door on different side? 

 

Possibly, though the carriages on E9 seem to be just a single batch of eight. It's possible that the diagram is wrong. But I suspect that withdrawn before the diagram book was issued is the most likely explanation. We're very fond of diagrams but we should be aware that they are an anachronism before the first decade of the 20th century, as far as I can make out. In the 1880s and 1890s, Derby Litchurch Lane works wasn't churning out D299s but simply 8 ton high-side wagons.

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Hi,

 

Regarding the Glasbury photo I asked my mate who is an expert on the HH&B railway and he said "I have a copy in my collection which I am currently looking at.  I acquired my copy some years ago from the National Library of Wales which I seem to recall is based at Aberystwyth.  The original annotation (yes original annotation) which was included as part of my copy of the image includes (handwritten) the date of the image - which is "Sep 17 89" or in more modern format 17 September 1889.  There is a further original annotation of say that this was the "11:11 passenger train from Glasbury". 

 

Cheers Tony 

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There has been a lot of speculation over the years about this train. As suggested above, the most likely explanation is that this is the through GWR Brecon - Paddington service. As to Sandy's (aka Penlan) suggestion about Madam Patti. Her travels are very interesting, in fact she is very interesting. She earned up to £3000 per night in Victorian times - for those who are starting to speculate, she was a soprano. She insisted in being paid in gold before she would perform and she had a pet parrot which she had trained to say "give us the money". Well worth looking up on Wiki.

 

Madam Patti only travelled in style and a 6 wheel carriage would not meet her needs. The GWR saloon at Bodmin was frequently used for her travels, it was originally built for the Prince of Wales but she also used it. When she travelled on the Midland, she was provided with one of their carriages. See attached photo of her at Swansea. Images of her and trains are rare so if anybody has any I would be very interested. The one exception to the above statement about the Midland is when she married Baron Cederstrom in Brecon and then it was a GWR carriage so far as I can ascertain.

 

Sorry if the above is a bit incoherent but I have been watching Dagenham and Redbridge v Chesterfield on the Internet and I needed something to calm my nerves - it was a 2-2 draw despite the best efforts of the referee.

Madam Patti at Swansea sept 1907.jpg

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2 hours ago, Penlan said:

Is there any chance the GWR coach is being used by Madam Patti, from Penwylt?
Incidenaltly, I understand the coach, or one of the GWR Coaches Madam Patti used, is currently at Bodmin, being, or is, restored.   Madam Patti lived at Penwylt Castle, by the old N&B (Midland) line.

 

Probably not, she would go up the hill from Craig y Nos castle to the N&B station she funded, climb into a saloon, then? Most likely down the hill to Neath, a fairly short run, and couple on to a GWR express with a nice fast run all the way to Padd. Going by way of Brecon and Hereford and she’d be chewing the window drop strap before she’d crossed the Severn.

Craig y Nos (Penwylt) station is still there, preserved, a neat stone building, and a slate roof, with the distinctive N&B chimneys. The building materials made it a longer lasting job than the rest of the stations on that line, but I think they were far more characterful, timber with a round corrugated iron roof, and fancy bargeboard, and don’t forget the chimneys.

6B828113-30BE-493B-9BC6-F5327C03A689.jpeg.d002f4a3cf947fb568753820be569b3b.jpeg

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On 30/01/2021 at 17:20, Rail-Online said:

17 September 1889. 

 

Thanks Tony. There's certainly nothing in the photo that would contradict that date. In fact, although there is no sign of lining visible on the engine, I would expect the initials M R on the tank sides to show up. There's no sign of them, so that points to before 1892. The for 1532 Class engines I mentioned were built in 1886; initial allocations were Nos. 1734/5 Redditch, 1736 Malvern, and 1737 Bourne so they evidently didn't stay at those sheds very long. 

 

On 30/01/2021 at 17:30, John-Miles said:

Well worth looking up on Wiki.

 

Done!

 

On 30/01/2021 at 17:30, John-Miles said:

The one exception to the above statement about the Midland is when she married Baron Cederstrom in Brecon and then it was a GWR carriage so far as I can ascertain.

 

That wedding was in 1899, so nothing to do with this train!

 

On 30/01/2021 at 17:30, John-Miles said:

Madam Patti only travelled in style and a 6 wheel carriage would not meet her needs. [...] When she travelled on the Midland, she was provided with one of their carriages. See attached photo of her at Swansea.

 

Madam Patti at Swansea sept 1907.jpg

 

Well, she's been had. That's a D459 32 ft 6-wheel family carriage, 28 built 1881-7, seen from the opposite side to the official photo, R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) Fig. 459 p. 343.

 

Now Sarah Bernhardt, on 28 July 1984, she was hired one of the older 40 ft bogie family carriages:

 

 

610.jpg

 

NRM DY 610, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

Edited by Compound2632
defunct image replaced by embedded link
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1 hour ago, Northroader said:

 

Probably not, she would go up the hill from Craig y Nos castle to the N&B station she funded, climb into a saloon, then? Most likely down the hill to Neath, a fairly short run, and couple on to a GWR express with a nice fast run all the way to Padd. Going by way of Brecon and Hereford and she’d be chewing the window drop strap before she’d crossed the Severn.

Craig y Nos (Penwylt) station is still there, preserved, a neat stone building, and a slate roof, with the distinctive N&B chimneys. The building materials made it a longer lasting job than the rest of the stations on that line, but I think they were far more characterful, timber with a round corrugated iron roof, and fancy bargeboard, and don’t forget the chimneys.

6B828113-30BE-493B-9BC6-F5327C03A689.jpeg.d002f4a3cf947fb568753820be569b3b.jpeg

 

This page has more info on the fascinating lady, including the route she used: 

 

http://www.spanglefish.com/neathantiquariansociety/news.asp?intent=viewstory&newsid=101616

 

 

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The adulation of those great singers never quite recovered from the invention of recording, which allowed anyone to become a critic!  Another famous singer associated with railways was Jenny Lind, who gave her name to David Joy's very successful engine. 

 

I like this humorous reference in Joy's diary:

 

"First Brighton engine was called "Jenny Lind" after the famous singer, "Jenny Lind," who was making a great excitement in London. I made a very highly finished drawing 1 in. to 1 ft. of her (the engine, not Jenny), which was lithographed, and sent about."

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

This page has more info on the fascinating lady, including the route she used: 

 

http://www.spanglefish.com/neathantiquariansociety/news.asp?intent=viewstory&newsid=101616

 

 

 

Now I get the connection.

 

She was clearly the inspiration for Alicia Botti, famed operatic singer appearing in Reverend W. Awdry's Railway stories (the TV versions anyway, as those of us with grandchildren know well) :)

 

 

Edited by BWsTrains
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3 hours ago, John-Miles said:

I am impressed. Ian Howard (yet another person who can identify a Midland Carriage at 300 paces on a foggy, dark night) said there was no way he could reliably say what kind of carriage it was.

 

It's just a question of elimination. The juxtaposition of long window on the left (indicating a saloon) and compartment-style quarter-light and droplight on the right, together with the lack of hinges, indicating no door there, narrows it down. 

 

Ian and I have been in correspondence about the date at which the door toplights of square-light clerestory carriages started to be replaced by ventilators, à la Ratio.

Edited by Compound2632
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1 hour ago, MikeOxon said:

The adulation of those great singers never quite recovered from the invention of recording, which allowed anyone to become a critic!  Another famous singer associated with railways was Jenny Lind, who gave her name to David Joy's very successful engine. 

 

Then there's Lily Langtry, the Jersey Lilly, who gave her name - via an overweight parodist in a Gorton music hall - to Robinson's Atlantics.

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Joining the dots, isn't the saloon preserved at Bodmin of the type seen on the tail of that train at Maidenhead in 1898, in the Biograph film? In which case, it could well be Patti on board, if it's an up South Wales express.

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The book 'Something Special: Adelina Patti's GWR Carriage.'1 Jan. 2013 by John Burden. (Author)" is described as "The intriguing story of the country's oldest GWR luxury carriage - GWR 9044, once designated GWR 248 and now fully restored and located at Bodmin and Wenford Railway, Cornwall."

 

Carriage no.248 does not appear in most lists of GWR saloons but its number is adjacent to that of the Royal Saloon, diagram G30, no.247. 

 

It appears that no.248 may have been built initially for Edward, Prince of Wales in October 1881 before coming into the possession of Adelina Patti.

 

It was later re-numbered as GWR Special Saloon 9044 and finally Engineering stock 80973.

 

It is certainly not the brake composite shown in the photo that started this discussion.

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On 31/01/2021 at 10:57, MikeOxon said:

It is certainly not the brake composite shown in the photo that started this discussion.

 

No indeed but the swinger in the 1898 Maidenhead express:

 

1819119334_Maidenhead1898saloon.jpg.ee1f8a85d39c8bba810e1a1f7e75e8c7.jpg

 

is, I think, the same carriage or one identical to the Bodmin saloon:

 

image.png.5491f59b3cf2b3896e904cdcf8c7f465.png

 

We're looking at the same side but from the other end.

 

It has design features in common with these run-of-the-mill saloons seen at Henley:

 

487553124_Henleysaloons.jpg.d38d92c4476986083c22b0431b10b9bf.jpg

 

but is longer.

 

So is that Adelina Patti waving at the movie camera?

Edited by Compound2632
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The attached is a WTT for Madam Patti's third wedding to Baron Cederstrom, How posh is that. I doubt many other people had a special for their wedding. Mine was a registry office job in Solihull. As you can see she departed from Penwyllt after the wedding in an 8 coach train - for 2 people and their servants. 

 

 

Patti's wedding notice N & B rwy.jpg

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My father-in-law had a WTT of sorts for my wedding...

 

As far as I know, the only other non-royal in Britain to have their own private carriage was the Duke of Sutherland*. But he had several - a clerestory 6-wheeler built, I think, by the Highland, then a LNWR-style saloon, built at Wolverton, and lastly a little 4-wheeler for trips to the bottom of his garden, built by the Highland. The last two are preserved. I have to say that the Duke's Wolverton saloon knocks spots off Madame Patti's, for all that the latter was second-hand from Bertie.

 

*Excluding such things as Drummond's Bug and other inspection saloons provided for railway employees and directors.

Edited by Compound2632
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7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

No indeed but the swinger in the 1898 Maidenhead express is, I think, the same carriage or one identical to the Bodmin saloon:

 

So is that Adelina Patti waving at the movie camera?

I think that you are correct in respect of the similarity of the movie clip to the restored coach...  bar one observation:- look at the upper footboards.

 

If there is someone at the open window near the middle of the coach, I think that window maybe for a guard's compartment - look at the lower roof deck where there is a single lamp top visible.  The clip reminds me of the current travel restrictions in regard to face coverings.

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1 hour ago, wagonman said:

More details in my next book....

 

Sounds like something I should be looking forward to. What title should I put on my wish list, please?

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1 minute ago, Western Star said:

I think that you are correct in respect of the similarity of the movie clip to the restored coach...  bar one observation:- look at the upper footboards.

 

I agree; but these might well have been changed at some time between 1898 and preservation - in the film there are individual footboard to all the single doors but not to the double doors; the preserved carriage has a continuous footboard. It also lacks the lower footboard between the bogies - on LMS carriages these were removed by the 30s; I imagine the GW may have done similar. 

 

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

If there is someone at the open window near the middle of the coach, I think that window maybe for a guard's compartment - look at the lower roof deck where there is a single lamp top visible.  

 

I think that lamp is for the next window along - the one between two blank panels - which looks into the side corridor, judging by this photo of the interior of the carriage as preserved. I expect this faces onto a lavatory compartment. The double doors also give onto this corridor; a luggage compartment perhaps rather than a guard's compartment. I don't think it was usual for family saloons etc. to have a handbrake.

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