More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[MikeOxon]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...........So is that Adelina Patti waving at the movie camera?

I notice that the guard in the first carriage appears to have his head out and to be looking back.  Could the two guards at the ends of the train be signalling to each other - perhaps noting that the station had been passed? 

 

There are quite a few other heads looking out and some hats that look in danger of being blown off.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I notice that the guard in the first carriage appears to have his head out and to be looking back.  Could the two guards at the ends of the train be signalling to each other - perhaps noting that the station had been passed? 

 

There are quite a few other heads looking out and some hats that look in danger of being blown off.

 

There are three brake carriages in the train - the corridor third brakes at either end of the corridor portion, and the non-corridor third brake that is the penultimate vehicle. There is certainly a guard looking out from the guard's door of the leading vehicle, but not from the others. I'm fairly sure the saloon does not have a brake compartment. There's no particular reason why a member of railway staff should be travelling in it. Having run the film several times and stopped t different frames, I think the person looking out from the saloon is not wearing a hat.

 

I suspect that word has got out that the train will be filmed. It might even be a special: I'm puzzled by the proportion of first class, which seems rather low for a principal express, compared to such trains on the northern lines. Also, none of the vehicles I've identified as thirds were originally seconds or second/third composites as far as I can tell from @Penrhos1920's website. 

[wagonman]

On 31/01/2021 at 19:10, Mikkel said:

 

Sounds like something I should be looking forward to. What title should I put on my wish list, please?

 

'Private Owner Wagons of Wiltshire' by Richard Kelham, to be published by Lightmoor Press. There will also be an Addendum of extra material that has come in relating to Somerset wagons.

Edited February 4, 2021 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

Somebody over on Prototype Questions asked about the East Southsea branch and its steam railmotors. My curiosity piqued, I hunted and found this photo of one taking early retirement*. That's a nice couple of Open As, reminding me I have a couple to sort out sheet bars for, and also one, probably two, D299s. I think, from the aspect ratio, that photo is cropped, so somewhere there's doubtles a version giving a better view of the wagons. 

 

I think it's this one, reboilered? So photo is c. 1919 or soon after?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

There were two cars, no’s. 1 & 2, jointly owned by the LBSC and LSWR for working the Southsea branch. The locomotive part built at Nine Elms and carriage added at Eastleigh, completed in 1903. 

 

You will probably spot the vertical boiler is somewhat on the small side, and it proved inadequate in service, being unable to leave Fratton station on a slight incline without a banker. The boiler of no 2 was modified at Brighton works, but was still inadequate, and a larger locomotive pattern boiler fitted to no. 1 at Eastleigh in 1903, with other changes. This is the boiler of the type shown in your picture, and no. 2 was modified in the same way. They remained prone to mechanical failures, and needed help at busy periods. The Southsea service was suspended at the outbreak of WW1, and the railcars went into storage. The scrapping was authorised in 1919, no. 2 was done at Brighton, no. 1 at Eastleigh. (I’m summarising from Bradley, locos of the LBSC, volume three)

 

[Compound2632]

On a cold, bleak, overcast early February afternoon sometime in the late 1890s, with snow lying on the ground, LNW coal wagon No. 57152 stands empty on the coal siding at Chester Road station: 

 

 

The transfers on the side are from the waterslide sheet that comes with the kit as currently sold new; this seems to be an attempt at a replica of the original Pressfix sheet though not using the original artwork but a "nearest font match" - hardly noticeable in "TONS COAL WAGON" but more so in the numbers, so for the number on the end, I've used an old Pressfix sheet. Neither the old or new version includes an "8", only "10" for the D54 coal wagon and "6" or "7" for the D4, so the 8 is from the HMRS LNWR sheet. The tare weight is from a Slaters Midland sheet - again the waterslide version that comes with new kits not the old Pressfix one, but in this case a quality job. It's a mash-up of two tare weights to get a reasonable one for this wagon. The number plate is my own invention, in CorelDraw, printed onto photographic paper, and then cut out, peeling off just the hard shiny to layer:

 

 

If anyone's interested, I'm happy to supply a correctly-scaled version.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Nice build. The look is somehow very LNWR-ish. Robust and functional yet with a cool, restrained elegance. 

[Compound2632]

I've been experimenting with mineral loads:

 

 

I haven't got any coal. How can one get one's hands on a lump of coal in this time of climate crisis and pandemic lockdown? Anyway, a lump of coal would have to be processed - crushed and graded. There are some instances where ungraded coal - a mix of sizes of lumps - could be found; I believe locomotive coal could be an example - but examination of marshalling yard photos shows that most loads were of coal of a particular size:

 

 

 

A congress of D299s at Cricklewood Sidings, March 1905 [NRM DY 2806, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum].

 

So, what's mineral and graded, in our modelling world? Ballast. 

 

I've stuck Woodland Scenics coarse ballast onto a cardboard table, using the usual dilute PVA method, and then painted it black with acrylic. I've stuck lead weights under the table, using UHU. (There is no point of contact between the PVA and the lead, I think / hope / believe. Anyway, it's only a removeable load.) There's a hole in the wagon floor into which a pokey stick can be inserted to demount the load:

 

 

I think the lump size is a reasonable match for the loads in the wagons in the foreground of the Cricklewood photo; medium or even fine could be used too, judging by the wagons further from the camera. However, I'm stumped for the big lumps in the wagons on the left, around 3 mm - 4 mm size. I keep looking at the cat litter - too absorbent? Any better ideas?

 

Painting the ballast black is a step I could do without so I've ordered a bag of Woodland Scenics coarse ash ballast. I'm wondering though if a dry brushing of gloss varnish might be the thing to give the impression of hard shiny coals?

 

This is a coke wagon. What size was the coke produced at gasworks, or at colliery coking plants? And what colour? I've an idea it might be greyer.

 

Also, while thinking about wagon loads, can anyone suggest a source of 4 mm scale barrels that are the right size for and actially look like Burton beer barrels?

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Schooner]

 

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A congress of...

 

[Dave Hunt]

Stephen, a friend has suggested that dark grey powdered tile grout spread on and around the track then finely sprayed with a water/ alcohol mix does a good ash ballast. If you mix powdered water paint with the grout you can vary the colour. I intend to try it.

 

Dave

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Also, while thinking about wagon loads, can anyone suggest a source of 4 mm scale barrels that are the right size for and actially look like Burton beer barrels?

 

What size were they Stephen? I have a collection of barrels from a number of manufacturers. Could check if any fit the measurements.

 

PS: I like the coal. Nice dull sheen. Sparkly coal looks odd to me in 4mm scale.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Mikkel

[Tricky]

7 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Stephen, a friend has suggested that dark grey powdered tile grout spread on and around the track then finely sprayed with a water/ alcohol mix does a good ash ballast. If you mix powdered water paint with the grout you can vary the colour. I intend to try it.

 

Dave

I use real ash from my log burner, drifted on to watery pva using a tea strainer. 

[Northroader]

Coke Is generally about the same size as your coal load, and is a light grey colour, but it also has a slightly silvery appearance. You can usually pick up the odd lump of coal as spillage if you mooch around the stabling sidings on a preserved railway.

[Rowsley17D]

For beer barrels try these:

 

https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=Wooden_Barrels_(OO_scale)

 

They look very close to Burton ones to me. PM sent on coal.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

What size were they Stephen? I have a collection of barrels from a number of manufacturers. Could check if any fit the measurements.

 

That's a question that it is surprisingly hard to answer from the internet! So I'm scaling from known dimensions of wagons. There are some good clear photos of Burton beer yards around but not ones I can post. G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1993) Plate 7 shows several NSR opens loaded with barrels standing on their ends. All these wagons have internal dimensions 14'6" x 7'0" or thereabouts. There are some mixed loads; the one where the barrels look must uniform has 17 in a 6-5-6 formation across the wagon. That gives a girth of around 2'3". That's a 1-plank wagon with depth about 11" - reaching about a third of the way up the barrel, so length is around 2'9". That tallies with the observation from those Wellingborough 1898 photos that the barrels come just to the top of a D299 - 2'10". So in 4 mm scale, around 11.0 mm x 9.0 mm - aspect ratio 1.2, approximately. So those Peedie ones are a bit skinny, as are the Skytrex ones, anyway there's no scale and too many of them are stuck together two deep. Allowing for the depth of the chime, this gives a volume of around 6 cubic feet, close enough to the 36 gallon capacity of a standard ale or beer cask.  

 

An adjacent wagon holds 21 barrels; this wagon may be 15'6" long inside; it's squeezing in three abreast but I think there are some skinnier barrels present although they're all the same height/length. Another wagon has some bigger barrels, more of which are on the ground in the background - about 50% taller, say 4'0", five along the length of the wagon giving nearly 3'0" girth - approximately the same aspect ratio. These have a capacity of around 16 cubic feet. A 36 gallon barrel is 1/8 of a tun; a puncheon or tertian (Latin: one third) is 1/3 of a tun, so 8/3 of a barrel, 96 gallons. Therefore these larger barrels are puncheons.

 

I think there's an opportunity here for an enterprising manufacturer of wagon loads! @Tricky?

 

@Rowsley17D, thanks, fuel for thought.

 

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Coke Is generally about the same size as your coal load, and is a light grey colour, but it also has a slightly silvery appearance. 

 

Thanks, a dry-brushing of light grey over the black might do the trick - the black giving an impression of depth to the load. More experimentation!

Edited February 6, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

From the discussion on the "Foreign Wagons" thread, the conclusion I drew was that if you're modelling a wayside station in the south of England in the twenty years before the Great War, you'll want three D299s, though they should not appear together: one loaded with coal, one that's been emptied of coal and is being returned, and one with Burton beer barrels - full or empty. There's one snag with the latter - I think all my good photos show empty casks, loaded on end (contrary to the later loading instructions); I'm not sure how full casks would be loaded. Loading barrels on end means that if it rains the uppermost chine will fill with water - is that a good thing (stopping shrinkage) or a bad thing (leading to rot)?

[Penrhos1920]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been experimenting with mineral loads:

 

 

I haven't got any coal. How can one get one's hands on a lump of coal in this time of climate crisis and pandemic lockdown?

 

Try

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Products/Gardens/BBQs+Outdoor-Heating/Coal+Firewood-Logs/c/1017000

 

In in the summer they were doing bag of non smokeless coal at half price. The girl at the check out asked how long it would last me.  I replied “A long time “. 

[Northroader]

I thought you were a Midland nut?

https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I thought you were a Midland nut?

https://stpancras.com/history/built-on-beer

 

Yes, I'd tried that method too but the unanswered question was, how many beer barrels between each pillar?

[Northroader]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I'd tried that method too but the unanswered question was, how many beer barrels between each pillar?

 

Fourteen feet of ‘em.

[John-Miles]

7 hours ago, Tricky said:

I use real ash from my log burner, drifted on to watery pva using a tea strainer. 

I use real ash from a railway. If you walk old railways you generally find if you dig through the surface, which tends to be grass, the old ash ballast is there. It needs sieving of course. There is sometimes a problem with the result containing too much white material but I tend to live with that in the knowledge that it's a bit of real railway. So my model of Penwllt / Craig y Nos is ballasted with ballast from Penwyllt - which pleases me.

[Guy Rixon]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

From the discussion on the "Foreign Wagons" thread, the conclusion I drew was that if you're modelling a wayside station in the south of England in the twenty years before the Great War, you'll want three D299s, though they should not appear together: one loaded with coal, one that's been emptied of coal and is being returned, and one with Burton beer barrels - full or empty. There's one snag with the latter - I think all my good photos show empty casks, loaded on end (contrary to the later loading instructions); I'm not sure how full casks would be loaded. Loading barrels on end means that if it rains the uppermost chine will fill with water - is that a good thing (stopping shrinkage) or a bad thing (leading to rot)?

If the cask were full, then would not the beer would keep the chine wet enough to stop shrinkage?

 

If the community can agree on the cask size and stacking arrangement, I shall print some cask stacks. How many would you like? 

[Northroader]

 

There, good, just got back having been dragged out on an afternoon constitutional by the missus, where was I?

 

Heres some barrels made for the One True Scale by Skytrex. They work out at around 3’10” High by 3’2” max diam for the big ones, and 2’8”ish by 1’9” for the small ones. The ones the porter is handling look about right for the small size, comparing barrel diameter with the height of his knee, and five placed end to end will give you fourteen feet?

edit, and eight, side by side, equals?

Edited February 6, 2021 by Northroader

[Northroader]

8 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

If the cask were full, then would not the beer would keep the chine wet enough to stop shrinkage?

 

If the community can agree on the cask size and stacking arrangement, I shall print some cask stacks. How many would you like? 

 

9 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

If the cask were full, then would not the beer would keep the chine wet enough to stop shrinkage?

 

If the community can agree on the cask size and stacking arrangement, I shall print some cask stacks. How many would you like? 

 

9 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

If the cask were full, then would not the beer would keep the chine wet enough to stop shrinkage?

 

If the community can agree on the cask size and stacking arrangement, I shall print some cask stacks. How many would you like? 

 

Full or empty?

[Guy Rixon]

12 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Full or empty?

Can't print beer, more's the pity.

 

If the stacking differs for full and empty casks, then I can do both, since the work is mainly in drawing one cask.

 

As to whether the model casks should be solid resin or partly hollow, that depends on the desired weight and the resin cost. These will be done at home (way too expensive at Shapeways), and I'd expect the consumables cost for solid casks to be around £1 per wagon load. I.e. negligible if I'm printing a handful. It's more work to hollow out the model casks, and if the stacking direction varies between full and empty then I need a different model for each, otherwise the uncooked resin inside won't flow out.

 

PS: the immediate offer is only for standard-sized Burton casks, otherwise I'll be drawing cask variants for the next few years.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Guy Rixon